Refunds for anytime return ticket?

[Andybravo]

I have a anytime return ticket paid for by work (I collected it with my card at a ticket machine with a reference number they gave me), but I no longer need it.

If I went to my local station and requested a refund would it automatically go on the card that paid for the ticket, or could I get them to put it on another card? And would my work be notified?

 

[MichaelAMW]

Seriously? Getting the sack is not worth the advantage of trousering the cost of one rail ticket...

 

[Andybravo]

I anticipated replies like that and was going to put a dislaimer in my post but might aswell do it now.

I'm just looking for purely fact based replies on the question I asked. Doesn't mean I'm going to do it I'm just interested in the procedure. Thanks

 

[janb]

You would have to return it to the retailer. So if bought online, can't be refunded at the station.

It would be refunded to the payment card.

 

[RJ]

I have a anytime return ticket paid for by work (I collected it with my card at a ticket machine with a reference number they gave me), but I no longer need it.

If I went to my local station and requested a refund would it automatically go on the card that paid for the ticket, or could I get them to put it on another card? And would my work be notified?

It would have to be refunded by the same people who sold the ticket. You're out of luck on this one.

 

[Haywain]

It should always be refunded to the card that was used to make the purchase. It is even possible to refund to expired and cancelled cards.

 

[najaB]

It is even possible to refund to expired and cancelled cards.

Interesting. I knew you could refund to expired cards but didn't know you could to cancelled ones.

 

[Andybravo]

Everyone seems to be saying that a refund must be issued via the same method the ticket was payed for, but this from the National Rail website seems to suggest otherwise?

5. How will I receive my refund?
You will receive your refund by the same method that you used to pay for the ticket, unless you agree to a different method of repayment

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/72098.aspx

 

[najaB]

You will receive your refund by the same method that you used to pay for the ticket, unless you agree to a different method of repayment

Note it's unless you agree to different method, rather than unless you request a different method. This is primarily intended so that the TOC can refund tickets paid for using RTVs or a warrant in a different manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Note it's unless you agree to different method, rather than unless you request a different method. This is primarily intended so that the TOC can refund tickets paid for using RTVs or a warrant in a different manner.

Or I suppose you might agree that if you have completely closed the account using which it was purchased that they might make an exception with the bank's permission, possibly?

OTOH, the OP appears to be asking how to commit fraud against his employer, which is, to put it mildly, downright wrong and extremely ill-advised.

 

[Andybravo]

Note it's unless you agree to different method, rather than unless you request a different method. This is primarily intended so that the TOC can refund tickets paid for using RTVs or a warrant in a different manner.

What does RTV stand for?

And I'm assuming this rule of must be refunded via same method exists to combat fraud? e.g someone finds a train ticket that doesnt belong to them and attempts to get "refunded" on their own card?

And Bletchleyite that is not the case nor my intention. Long story short my work provided me with unsatisfactory tickets for a longer commute and are refusing to change them so at my own expense I have purchased more suitable tickets and was seeing if I could cover my losses by doing this. That is all. But I will either do nothing, or give the tickets to friends/family if they want them.

 

[AntoniC]

RTV = Rail Travel Voucher
A voucher to be used to buy future rail tickets, they come in various denominations.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Everyone seems to be saying that a refund must be issued via the same method the ticket was payed for, but this from the National Rail website seems to suggest otherwise?

5. How will I receive my refund?
You will receive your refund by the same method that you used to pay for the ticket, unless you agree to a different method of repayment

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/72098.aspx

That's not the NRCoT, it is info on the National Rail website. The NRCoT makes clear on P21 that refunds on tickets paid for by credit cards are credited to the relevant account. A customer paying for a ticket by Credit Card is bound both by the NRCoT and the conditions of the card issuer, one of which will require refunds to go back to the same card account.

 

[221129]

But I will either do nothing, or give the tickets to friends/family if they want them.

I would strongly advise against this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Bletchleyite that is not the case nor my intention. Long story short my work provided me with unsatisfactory tickets for a longer commute and are refusing to change them so at my own expense I have purchased more suitable tickets and was seeing if I could cover my losses by doing this. That is all. But I will either do nothing, or give the tickets to friends/family if they want them.

I'd simply refuse to travel if the tickets provided were not appropriate, I would not spend my own money on replacements. Though your relationship with your employer will vary.

 

[tony_mac]

It makes more sense if you read the other thread... https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ommute-stourbridge-junction-to-london.180351/
(Imo, the employers are not being reasonable. But the alternative may be trying to find a new job at short notice...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It makes more sense if you read the other thread... https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ommute-stourbridge-junction-to-london.180351/
(Imo, the employers are not being reasonable. But the alternative may be trying to find a new job at short notice...)

Yes, I was in that thread. As things stand he is being given an instruction (arrive by 0800) and a ticket (which is valid for a first connection arriving well after 0900). Using the ticket provided it is not possible to fulfil the instruction. Therefore, "your move" would be my reply, with the "no-deal default" being to use the ticket provided on the first connection of the day and arriving late.

If an employer would sack me for that, then I wouldn't want to work there.

I absolutely, 100% would not be spending my own money on rectifying the problem the employer has created themselves. But equally I wouldn't use the method proposed to get my money back because that would be a slam-dunk case of fraud.

 

[najaB]

But equally I wouldn't use the method proposed to get my money back because that would be a slam-dunk case of fraud.

I wouldn't either, but I'm not so sure it's a "slam-dunk case of fraud". As I understand it for a fraud to occur two things need to be true: there must be misrepresentation of the facts, and there must be gain (financial or otherwise).

In this case the OP would actually be worse off for the transaction overall, and there's no suggestion that they have misrepresented the situation to their employer.

In what way do you see a fraud being perpetrated?

 

[Andybravo]

I would strongly advise against this.

Why? I know its illegal to re-sell train tickets but this would just be giving them away to friends/family.

Despite what you're probably going to reply with, it's virtually unenforceable anyway. In the reality of life...guards just look at your ticket and as long as it is a valid ticket for the journey and person travelling, then they move on fairly quickly. Barriers don't discriminate either.

 

[najaB]

Why? I know its illegal to re-sell train tickets but this would just be giving them away to friends/family.

Technically, it's illegal to transfer tickets, not just to resell them. I agree though that it is unlikely (though not impossible) to be detected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In what way do you see a fraud being perpetrated?

The misrepresentation is the application for a refund on the basis that it was the OP's to do that. The financial gain is over the default position of not having that money (the additional ticket purchased is not in my view relevant).

 

[najaB]

The misrepresentation is the application for a refund on the basis that it was the OP's to do that.

Having been given the ticket by the employer, I'm of the opinion that no misrepresentation will have occurred: "I was given this ticket, but I no longer need it."

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having been given the ticket by the employer, I'm of the opinion that no misrepresentation will have occurred: "I was given this ticket, but I no longer need it."

As the ticket was provided to the OP with a specific purpose clearly implicit in it being given, I disagree.

If my employer gives me a ticket for any given work journey, there is no reasonable expectation at all that that gives me it for whatever purpose I wish. It is provided for the clear purpose of using it to travel on a journey for work purposes using it. If I don't wish to use it for that purpose, I am to return it.

 

[najaB]

As the ticket was provided to the OP with a specific purpose clearly implicit in it being given, I disagree.

But that brings it back to the fraud being against the employer rather than the railway and the employer has suffered no loss and there was no misrepresentation on the part of the OP.

Consider if the employer had given the OP a £20 note rather than a ticket - does the fact that the OP put that £20 in their pocket and spent £25 using their debit card make it a fraud against the employer?

 

[reb0118]

Consider if the employer had given the OP a £20 note rather than a ticket - does the fact that the OP put that £20 in their pocket and spent £25 using their debit card make it a fraud against the employer?

This may be a poor analogy but consider the following:-

1) a housebound person gives their debit card to a friend to use to purchase goods.

2) a housebound person gives their debit card to a friend, instructs them to withdraw cash from an ATM and then to use that cash to purchase goods on their behalf.

The end result is the same but one method is legal and the other not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This may be a poor analogy but consider the following:-

1) a housebound person gives their debit card to a friend to use to purchase goods.

2) a housebound person gives their debit card to a friend, instructs them to withdraw cash from an ATM and then to use that cash to purchase goods on their behalf.

The end result is the same but one method is legal and the other not.

I don't know about legal, but neither of those are within the T&Cs of any bank account without formal Power of Attorney (in which case they'd be issued their own card if applicable). You must not reveal your PIN to another person under any circumstances, full stop. There are no exceptions.

I guess (1) is fraud, because unlike in (2) they are purporting to actually be the cardholder?

But in any case, if I wanted someone to do that I would BACS them the money to spend on their own card.

 

[Haywain]

You must not reveal your PIN to another person under any circumstances, full stop. There are no exceptions.

But that is not a matter of law, it's a matter of common sense. In revealing your PIN you might end up out of pocket but you won't be prosecuted.

 

[island]

Interesting. I knew you could refund to expired cards but didn't know you could to cancelled ones.

Yes, you can. The money will usually end up in a suspense account at the issuer, who will, if competent, credit the money to another account held by the cardholder, contact the cardholder to request bank details to pay it into, or post out a cheque.