Refund rules should be tightened

[Red Rover]

If I bought a ticket from one toc but the fare flow is another and the service I wanted to use was cancelled is another where does the refund/compensation lie?
Ticket issued at Liverpool South Parkway, ticket from Parkway to Crewe cdr, Runcorn-Crewe cancelled so I didn’t travel at all, if I asked for a refund it would be a £10 fee? Issued at a Merseyrail station, fare flow London Northwestern Railway, cancelled train Avanti.
Ticket was issued last week. Is there a way to avoid a £10 admin fee?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you travel?

 

[74A]

You get a full refund from the place you purchased the ticket from.

 

[Red Rover]

You get a full refund from the place you purchased the ticket from.

Even if there were other services? How would the toc know that service was cancelled? Surely that’s open to fraud to get out of paying a £10 fee, simply saying a train was cancelled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

Did you travel?

No but there were other services.

 

[Adam Williams]

How would the toc know that service was cancelled?

You tell them explicitly why you want the refund, and upon which exact service's cancellation you are relying upon as a result. They can independently verify that it was in fact actually cancelled. You assert when applying for the refund that you have not travelled - the retailer may well be in a position to check this, rather than simply taking it on trust.

 

[Red Rover]

The train would have been from Runcorn to Crewe, the ticket was issued at parkway, seems open to fraud to avoid a fee but good to know if no need to pay.

 

[Benjwri]

The train would have been from Runcorn to Crewe, the ticket was issued at parkway, seems open to fraud to avoid a fee but good to know if no need to pay.

In what way do you think its open to fraud? At best fraud from someone not having travelled for another reason than the train being cancelled. It's highly unlikely you'd actually manage to use the ticket for a substantial journey without it being checked, in which case a paper ticket would be marked, or an e ticket would be scanned. Once that has happened you won't be able to refund, and therefore there isn't an opportunity for fraud.

 

[Red Rover]

Because someone could buy tickets use cancellation as a reason for non use to avoid not paying the admin fee. How can a toc tell if another toc’s services are cancelled from a week ago?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

In what way do you think its open to fraud? At best fraud from someone not having travelled for another reason than the train being cancelled. It's highly unlikely you'd actually manage to use the ticket for a substantial journey without it being checked, in which case a paper ticket would be marked, or an e ticket would be scanned. Once that has happened you won't be able to refund, and therefore there isn't an opportunity for fraud.

As someone who travels that route a lot, getting checked between those stations is 50/50 at best.

 

[Benjwri]

Because someone could buy tickets use cancellation as a reason for non use to avoid not paying the admin fee. How can a toc tell if another toc’s services are cancelled from a week ago?

Train cancellation data is freely available to anyone on sites such as RealTimeTrains, Charlbury House etc. Companies hove their own systems but they can very much tell.

As someone who travels that route a lot, getting checked between those stations is 50/50 at best.

Crewe is barriered though....

 

[Red Rover]

Train cancellation data is freely available to anyone on sites such as RealTimeTrains, Charlbury House etc. Companies hove their own systems but they can very much tell.

Crewe is barriered though....

Barriers are open on many occasions for various reasons but I’m digressing, this was more about if one train is cancelled yet another is available does this mean you can get a full refund? If yes fine.

But that is open to fraud if tickets aren’t checked or haven’t gone through a barrier. The £10 fee could be worked around simply by saying my train was cancelled. It could be abused.

 

[MrJeeves]

But that is open to fraud if tickets aren’t checked or haven’t gone through a barrier. The £10 fee could be worked around simply by saying my train was cancelled. It could be abused.

Noone would know if the ticket has been through a barrier unless they actually got hold of the ticket itself.

 

[Benjwri]

Noone would know if the ticket has been through a barrier unless they actually got hold of the ticket itself.

Crewe barriers would probably eat the ticket though, so couldn't refund.

Barriers are open on many occasions for various reasons but I’m digressing, this was more about if one train is cancelled yet another is available does this mean you can get a full refund? If yes fine.

Yes you can. you can get a refund fee without an admin fee if your train is delayed or cancelled, and you choose not to travel, regardless of if other services are available. Having said this there are obvious cases where these criteria apply but the inconvenience will be minor. I'm sure some retailers would decline in this case.

 

[skyhigh]

But that is open to fraud if tickets aren’t checked or haven’t gone through a barrier. The £10 fee could be worked around simply by saying my train was cancelled. It could be abused.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at - are you suggesting that the admin fee shouldn't be waived for those who abandon their journey due to a cancellation?

 

[Red Rover]

What I’m getting at is anyone who doesn’t get their ticket checked could say their train was cancelled after checking one was and then put in for a refund irrespective of the price of the ticket and they’ll get a full refund, very open to fraud.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

Crewe barriers would probably eat the ticket though, so couldn't refund.

Yes you can. you can get a refund fee without an admin fee if your train is delayed or cancelled, and you choose not to travel, regardless of if other services are available. Having said this there are obvious cases where these criteria apply but the inconvenience will be minor. I'm sure some retailers would decline in this case.

This is very open to fraud then, stations that are close together where there are no barriers or few tickets checks, a customer could buy a ticket use it, check if a train was cancelled and say they planned to use it on that one.

 

[Hadders]

What changes do you suggest?

 

[Red Rover]

The issuing toc gives a refund with the £10 fee and they the customer then get the £10 admin fee refund from the toc that had service disruption.
Under £10 then straight to the toc which cancelled the train.
Maybe this would or could stop fraud? As it is I suspect people are just looking at departure board and thinking either refund or delay repay.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think you will probably face questions regarding your journey and could struggle to get a refund. Why on Earth would someone travelling from Liverpool South Parkway to Crewe change at Runcorn for the Avanti service when there are 2 direct LNR services per hour? It would either entail alighting off a service which is going to Crewe anyway or, if catching the TfW service from Parkway, a 50 minute wait at Runcorn and standing on the platform watching 2 LNR services to Crewe depart.

 

[Hadders]

The issuing toc gives a refund with the £10 fee and they the customer then get the £10 admin fee refund from the toc that had service disruption.
Under £10 then straight to the toc which cancelled the train.
Maybe this would or could stop fraud? As it is I suspect people are just looking at departure board and thinking either refund or delay repay.

Have you got any evidence that this 'fraud' is a widespread problem?
How much additional admin work will be caused by having to apply for two refunds? How much will this admin cost? Who is going to pay for it?
What is the impact on customers who, having had their plans disrupted, have to apply for two refunds.

There are better ways of detecting refund fraud.

 

[Red Rover]

Have you got any evidence that this 'fraud' is a widespread problem?
How much additional admin work will be caused by having to apply for two refunds? How much will this admin cost? Who is going to pay for it?
What is the impact on customers who, having had their plans disrupted, have to apply for two refunds.

There are better ways of detecting refund fraud.

No, none at all, ticket fraud is a huge issue but how much no toc I know of would reveal as it would or could give a green light for more.
Why should a toc’s staff do the work of another’s if that toc’s trains cancelled?

 

[Hadders]

If I require a refund due to a cancelled train I want to deal with one organisation. If train companies suspect fraudulent refunds there are ways of detecting them in the background, some threads in Disputes & Prosecutions suggest that the train companies are getting better at detecting this sort of thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I require a refund due to a cancelled train I want to deal with one organisation. If train companies suspect fraudulent refunds there are ways of detecting them in the background, some threads in Disputes & Prosecutions suggest that the train companies are getting better at detecting this sort of thing.

Most criminals won't only do a crime once, so frequent refunds provide a useful red flag.

 

[skyhigh]

The issuing toc gives a refund with the £10 fee and they the customer then get the £10 admin fee refund from the toc that had service disruption.

How does that solve the current issue (in your opinion) that a fee-free refund allows fraud? You could simply tell the issuing TOC that you intended to travel on the cancelled train, get the refund minus £10, then tell the TOC that operated the service you wanted to travel on the cancelled train and get the £10 back. So if someone fraudulently claimed a full refund without the £10 admin fee nothing would change, they'd still make the same claim but to different companies?

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket issued at Liverpool South Parkway

Ticket was issued last week.

If the ticket office sold the ticket, you could have immediately returned there to request a refund if your first train was cancelled.

Even if there were other services?

Yes.

 

[Red Rover]

How do you know they give the correct details if paid by cash?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

How does that solve the current issue (in your opinion) that a fee-free refund allows fraud? You could simply tell the issuing TOC that you intended to travel on the cancelled train, get the refund minus £10, then tell the TOC that operated the service you wanted to travel on the cancelled train and get the £10 back. So if someone fraudulently claimed a full refund without the £10 admin fee nothing would change, they'd still make the same claim but to different companies?

They'd have to give contact details in, refunds at stations can give any in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

I love to know without changing the refund process, ID should be required for all refunds, otherwise its so so open to fraud.

 

[Watershed]

ID should be required for all refunds

Are you suggesting that people without ID should be denied refunds?

Frankly this all sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Sure, there's an opportunity for fraud here but it is highly unlikely that anyone would conduct it in a careful enough manner to avoid getting caught. As the police saying goes, "they have to be lucky all the time - we only have to be lucky once".

 

[Red Rover]

Are you suggesting that people without ID should be denied refunds?

Frankly this all sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Sure, there's an opportunity for fraud here but it is highly unlikely that anyone would conduct it in a careful enough manner to avoid getting caught. As the police saying goes, "they have to be lucky all the time - we only have to be lucky once".

Yes cash ones, most certainly.

 

[skyhigh]

Yes cash ones, most certainly.

Interesting concept, when most on here would believe 'the Railway' isn't customer friendly, to make it harder for customers to exercise their contractual rights. Based on some feeling (with no evidence) that there must be a high level of refund fraud happening?

Are you really saying that if I were to turn up at station A, buy a ticket from the booking office with cash, go to the platform and find that the train is cancelled at short notice due to an operational incident or whatever, that I can't then go straight back to the booking office and get a cash refund if I don't have ID on me?

 

[Red Rover]

Interesting concept, when most on here would believe 'the Railway' isn't customer friendly, to make it harder for customers to exercise their contractual rights. Based on some feeling (with no evidence) that there must be a high level of refund fraud happening?

Are you really saying that if I were to turn up at station A, buy a ticket from the booking office with cash, go to the platform and find that the train is cancelled at short notice due to an operational incident or whatever, that I can't then go straight back to the booking office and get a cash refund if I don't have ID on me?

No not at all, a ticket is purchased and after the expiry of said ticket then ID is required for a cash refund, used to be the case.

 

[AlterEgo]

No not at all, a ticket is purchased and after the expiry of said ticket then ID is required for a cash refund, used to be the case.

When did it used to be the case?

 

[Red Rover]

When did it used to be the case?

When a refund was paid out upon the old red forms ID used to be required as cash was being given out, the refund without it could have been given to anyone.