Refund of first class premium

[Watershed]

I think the point is less about what was paid and more about the additional crowding caused if the whole train is invited into first class. You pay extra for first class not only to guarantee a seat but in the expectation that it will be a somewhat quieter environment, with no standing for example.

 

[800002]

I think the point is less about what was paid and more about the additional crowding caused if the whole train is invited into first class. You pay extra for first class not only to guarantee a seat but in the expectation that it will be a somewhat quieter environment, with no standing for example.

Point of order.
One makes a reservation to guarantee a seat.
The purchase of a ticket does not, in fact, guarantee one a seat on the journey.

 

[speedy1]

Point of order.
One makes a reservation to guarantee a seat.
The purchase of a ticket does not, in fact, guarantee one a seat on the journey.

Point of order.

"31.3 If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first
class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class
accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund.
"

Close to guaranteeing a seat, when it comes to first class? (In as much as a reservation actually guarantees a seat...)

 

[Haywain]

I think the point is less about what was paid and more about the additional crowding caused if the whole train is invited into first class. You pay extra for first class not only to guarantee a seat but in the expectation that it will be a somewhat quieter environment, with no standing for example.

There's a very big difference between a couple of people being invited to take seats in first class and "the whole train" being invited in. It's pretty clear that the latter constitutes declassification.

 

[VT 390]

Point of order.
One makes a reservation to guarantee a seat.
The purchase of a ticket does not, in fact, guarantee one a seat on the journey.

A seat reservation never guarantees a seat, it only means you will likely get a seat as in standard class no compensation is required if you had a reservation and have to stand for whatever reason (I know some operators like LNER offer a seat guarantee scheme but this is not available for most operators).

Buying a First class ticket does effectively guarantee a seat or your money back as if you have to stand with a first class ticket you can get the full ticket cost back (only the difference if you get a standard class seat but thats still a seat).

 

[800002]

Point of order.

"31.3 If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first
class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class
accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund.
"

Close to guaranteeing a seat, when it comes to first class? (In as much as a reservation actually guarantees a seat...)

Okay...
You cannot reserve a first class seat if first class reservations are not available.
A seat would have been guaranteed at time of reservation.

The provisio being the operator doesn't swap out a unit / service, and in doing so knocks out all reservations for that service.

 

[sheff1]

I think the point is less about what was paid and more about the additional crowding caused if the whole train is invited into first class. You pay extra for first class not only to guarantee a seat but in the expectation that it will be a somewhat quieter environment, with no standing for example.

Point of order.
One makes a reservation to guarantee a seat.
The purchase of a ticket does not, in fact, guarantee one a seat on the journey.

EMR publicity states

Our First Class experience offers a relaxed environment with more space to stretch out and is available on all our intercity services to and from London St Pancras. Here’s some of the reasons why First Class offers a more luxurious experience:

• Spacious, comfortable seats, each with a table ....

Obviously when reading that people will expect those spacious, comfortable seats to be for them to sit on, not to stand looking at other people sitting on them.
As as been explained, it is not possible to make a seat reservation on EMR.

 

[Watershed]

There's a very big difference between a couple of people being invited to take seats in first class and "the whole train" being invited in. It's pretty clear that the latter constitutes declassification.

I agree and that's the line I would draw. It would be somewhat unusual for people to be individually invited to first class when there aren't any seats left. It would be rather pointless for them.

EMR publicity states

Obviously when reading that people will expect those spacious, comfortable seats to be for them to sit on, not to stand looking at other people sitting on them.
As as been explained, it is not possible to make a seat reservation on EMR.

Yes, as mentioned there is an entitlement to compensation if you are unable to sit in first class. Hence it is effectively guaranteed that you will get a seat, even without a reservation. Getting compensation for not sitting is the same mechanism as the LNER Seat Guarantee scheme really.

 

[moley]

I accept that those who want to book an advance specific time train first class ticket will have paid less than me. I need the flexibility of picking a train when i'm ready therefore the correct ticket for me is an Anytime Day first class ticket. Both are valid first class tickets.

The issue that I find really frustrating, is that guard on my second journey did not invite passengers into first class. They had taken seats through their own choice and the guard did not enforce the restriction on the tickets that they held (i.e. only to travel in Standard class). That's fare evasion to not have the correct ticket for your journey.

Secondly, the guard notified the passenger that his ticket was a Southern only ticket, and that this was a SWR service. He even pointed out that the passenger had gone to the incorrect London terminal. He didn't seek an excess, an new ticket. He just carried on down the carriage. Again fare evasion.

In neither case was the passenger threatening or uncooperative so there is no safety issue here. I guess therefore my frustration is not with the passenger, but with guard for not doing their job properly?