Refund of first class premium

[moley]

What are the rules regarding a refund of the difference between standard class and first class ticket prices when the guard allows/advises standard class passengers to use first class.

I've had two cases recently, and when I checked with the operator, neither service had first class officially declassified.

In the first case, the proceeding two trains were cancelled, standard class was rammed, so the guard, stood by the door local to the first class compartment, advised passengers they could sit there. You ended up with 2 passengers paying the correct fare, 6 others with standard class tickets sat, and 4 others stood.

In the second issue, during the ticket check, the guard identified that one passenger had a standard class ticket for a different operator serving the secondary route to their ultimate destination, and a second passenger with just a standard class ticket. He allowed both of them to remain as neither would find a seat in the rest of the train. This was not a short formation or following disruption. Again, the rest of those sat in first class had the correct tickets. Neither passenger was rude. There is no point having ticket checks if the guard just allows incorrect routed / classes of ticket.

I specifically buy the first class tickets so that i'm not in the crush loaded part of the train.

Any advice gladly received.

 

[Egg Centric]

Which operator? Makes a difference to the practical advice

The minimum general rule as in what's in nrcot is you are entitled to a refund of the difference* if it is declassified. But answer to the above question important for actual advice.

A guard telling passengers he "liked the look of" they could go into first is not technically declassification, for a start... fun and games may be ahead although you'll get money back eventually with perserverence. Or with some more valuable perks.

*between your ticket and cheapest standard class

 

[moley]

SWR mainline service, so advertised with first class.

 

[AlterEgo]

What are the rules regarding a refund of the difference between standard class and first class ticket prices when the guard allows/advises standard class passengers to use first class.

I've had two cases recently, and when I checked with the operator, neither service had first class officially declassified.

In the first case, the proceeding two trains were cancelled, standard class was rammed, so the guard, stood by the door local to the first class compartment, advised passengers they could sit there. You ended up with 2 passengers paying the correct fare, 6 others with standard class tickets sat, and 4 others stood.

That probably is a de facto declassification, did you complain and ask for the difference?

In the second issue, during the ticket check, the guard identified that one passenger had a standard class ticket for a different operator serving the secondary route to their ultimate destination, and a second passenger with just a standard class ticket. He allowed both of them to remain as neither would find a seat in the rest of the train.

That isn't declassifying first class.

 

[Watershed]

It's worth noting that the provisions in the NRCoT for downgrade compensation/refunds do not say that the train company's records about declassification (or otherwise) are the ultimate arbiter of whether or not declassification took place.

Obviously TOCs would like you to think it's the case - but unless they are going to essentially accuse you of fraud, they pretty much have to accept your claim. Or to put it another way, you'd have legal recourse if they wrongly denied your claim.

 

[STINT47]

On an EMR journey they let standard class passengers sit in first but only provided refreshments to those with a first class ticket.

Not sure how this stands.from a legal side but customer services did not deem it to be declassified as first class passengers got more than standard in the form of complimentary refreshments.

 

[VT 390]

On an EMR journey they let standard class passengers sit in first but only provided refreshments to those with a first class ticket.

Not sure how this stands.from a legal side but customer services did not deem it to be declassified as first class passengers got more than standard in the form of complimentary refreshments.

That would appear to contradict themselves as when no first class catering has been available (when advertised) on EMR services and I have put in a complaint they have stated the catering is complimentary and you are paying for the first class seating, it was only with follow up communication it has been possible to get anything.
Yet in your instance they are effectively saying the reverse, so it appears they are picking whichever reason suits them best as both reasons can not be correct.

 

[Sealink]

SWR mainline service, so advertised with first class.

I mean on the London Weymouth line the different between First and Standard is almost imperceptible, now they decided to go 2+2 seating in First. Although you do get comtactless charging

At least from Exeter to Waterloo it is still 2+1 which makes a meaningful difference.

EDIT: I realise this isn't the point of your original post

 

[Watershed]

On an EMR journey they let standard class passengers sit in first but only provided refreshments to those with a first class ticket.

Not sure how this stands.from a legal side but customer services did not deem it to be declassified as first class passengers got more than standard in the form of complimentary refreshments.

I think that's borderline. Ultimately you aren't just paying for complimentary refreshments in first class, indeed many TOCs try to argue that because the refreshments are advertised as 'complimentary', this means they're not obliged to compensate you if they fail to provide them. It's rather ironic seeing a TOC turn that argument on its head; as others say, it seems like they want to have their cake and eat it!

The commuter TOCs (SN/SW/TL etc.) don't offer anything beyond dedicated first class seating, so I think it's fair to say that letting standard class passengers sit in first class undermines the reduced crowding/density that you would expect from first class.

 

[apbj]

Interesting question, I would be interested to know how the OP gets on with their request. On GWR, being declassified means no further catering service for anyone. In disruption crowding, I have seen GWR train managers let people sit in first class, which in turn prompts the catering hosts to treat it as declassified even though that hasn't officially happened. Any request for a partial refund then becomes a "he said/she said" with customer relations in which the customer will always lose. I am very sympathetic to the staff and other customers in the event of disruption but it is annoying to be treated unfairly.

 

[Sonic1234]

Any request for a partial refund then becomes a "he said/she said" with customer relations in which the customer will always lose.

i.e. the old tactic of bat away complainants and eventually pay off the 1% (or 0.01%) who will take it beyond 2 emails to customer relations, saving a load in the process.

 

[Watershed]

Interesting question, I would be interested to know how the OP gets on with their request. On GWR, being declassified means no further catering service for anyone. In disruption crowding, I have seen GWR train managers let people sit in first class, which in turn prompts the catering hosts to treat it as declassified even though that hasn't officially happened. Any request for a partial refund then becomes a "he said/she said" with customer relations in which the customer will always lose. I am very sympathetic to the staff and other customers in the event of disruption but it is annoying to be treated unfairly.

The average person would certainly be inclined to give up when faced with the kind of refusals that TOCs often give.
.
Someone who was determined would probably get what they're owed when they request a deadlock letter, when they send a Letter Before Claim, or ultimately once they submit a court claim.

Very few claims would have to go all the way to a court hearing to be paid but of course the TOCs know full well that most people aren't willing to go that far to vindicate their rights.

 

[sheff1]

On EMR southbound the other day all first class seats were taken before we reached Leicester. Maybe half a dozen first class ticket holders boarded at Leicester but were obviously unable to get a seat. With EMR having done away with reservations those ticket holders, even if they had an Advance ticket, could not have reserved a seat.

The conductor seemed to be endorsing those customers tickets electronically in some way. After she had finished I asked her what the general principle was if you had a first class Advance but there were no seats. She advised that the tickets could be endorsed and you would be allowed travel on a subsequent service. The problem of course would be that there is no guarantee of seats on a later service.
It does seem rather ridiculous that First Advance tickets for boarding at intermediate stations are being sold for which is not possible to reserve a seat.

Heading north all first class seats were quickly taken at St Pancras and more ticket holders were arriving. I don’t know what happened with them and some quite possibly also had Advance tickets.

The complimentary catering was provided in both directions. The person I was opposite going north said that they had had to stand going south from Leicester, but had still been offered the catering which they had declined as being impractical.

 

[RPI]

There is a difference though between declassification and upgrading a couple of passengers to first.

Many times I've worked busy trains where standard is full and first is nearly full and I've allowed one or two standing passengers to sit in first class - that's not declassification of first class but merely upgrading some standard passengers to first class, as is covered in NRCoT.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a difference though between declassification and upgrading a couple of passengers to first.

Many times I've worked busy trains where standard is full and first is nearly full and I've allowed one or two standing passengers to sit in first class - that's not declassification of first class but merely upgrading some standard passengers to first class, as is covered in NRCoT.

When you say upgrade, do you mean excessing them to First Class, or giving selective passengers freebe upgrades

 

[VT 390]

On EMR southbound the other day all first class seats were taken before we reached Leicester. Maybe half a dozen first class ticket holders boarded at Leicester but were obviously unable to get a seat. With EMR having done away with reservations those ticket holders, even if they had an Advance ticket, could not have reserved a seat.

The conductor seemed to be endorsing those customers tickets electronically in some way. After she had finished I asked her what the general principle was if you had a first class Advance but there were no seats. She advised that the tickets could be endorsed and you would be allowed travel on a subsequent service. The problem of course would be that there is no guarantee of seats on a later service.
It does seem rather ridiculous that First Advance tickets for boarding at intermediate stations are being sold for which is not possible to reserve a seat.

Heading north all first class seats were quickly taken at St Pancras and more ticket holders were arriving. I don’t know what happened with them and some quite possibly also had Advance tickets.

The complimentary catering was provided in both directions. The person I was opposite going north said that they had had to stand going south from Leicester, but had still been offered the catering which they had declined as being impractical.

I am surprised EMR do not temporarily significantly reduce the quantity/increase the price/remove first class advance fares until the full timetable can be restored as if first class is regularly all seats taken with first class ticket holders having to stand then they should try to reduce the numbers travelling on first class tickets, even if its only a targeted approach on the worse services.

 

[Snow1964]

I am surprised EMR do not temporarily significantly reduce the quantity/increase the price/remove first class advance fares until the full timetable can be restored as if first class is regularly all seats taken with first class ticket holders having to stand then they should try to reduce the numbers travelling on first class tickets, even if its only a targeted approach on the worse services.

The problem is they having been selling the tickets for many weeks, and are offering those with advances option to travel on nearby services if theirs are cancelled.

But they have failed to be proactive and use the email contact details with the tickets, to contact the holders of cancelled trains and find out which alternative they would like, and rebook them seats.

It's not clear if the cancelled services, were operationally chosen for convenience, or if it based on those with fewest tickets sold, possibly they cancelled some with lots of advances, not thinking of their fare paying passengers whose money they had already taken.

Basically have made stupid decision to sell tickets for specific trains, then cancel them and leave passengers to join a scrum for remaining seats. An operator not fit for purpose.

 

[VT 390]

The problem is they having been selling the tickets for many weeks, and are offering those with advances option to travel on nearby services if theirs are cancelled.

But they have failed to be proactive and use the email contact details with the tickets, to contact the holders of cancelled trains and find out which alternative they would like, and rebook them seats.

They can not rebook seats as there are no seat reservations on EMR at all until the class 810 are fully in service.
I agree its an issue with tickets that have already been sold but they are still offering advance tickets now for future dates, I think they really should look at removing/reducing these on certain services that will likely be busier due to gaps in the service.

 

[Haywain]

When you say upgrade, do you mean excessing them to First Class, or giving selective passengers freebe upgrades

Does it make a difference?

 

[sheff1]

Does it make a difference?

Makes a huge difference. Many moons ago, travelling as a young family, we were upgraded to first at zero cost when passengers in our reserved seats refused to move. We could not have afforded to pay the excess to full first class fare.

 

[Haywain]

Makes a huge difference.

You miss my point - the comment I replied to seemed to suggest that whether they were charged made a difference to those who held first class tickets.

 

[Flying Snail]

You miss my point - the comment I replied to seemed to suggest that whether they were charged made a difference to those who held first class tickets.

Of course it does, if free upgrades are being given to those with Std class tickets then what exactly are those who have paid a premium for 1st class actually paying for?

 

[Haywain]

Of course it does, if free upgrades are being given to those with Std class tickets then what exactly are those who have paid a premium for 1st class actually paying for?

If you are getting the service you paid for, what business is it of yours what others have paid? In any first class carriage there are likely to be people who have paid significantly varying amounts.

 

[Harpo]

There’s a big difference between the free-for-all of declassification and a little bit of targetted customer care in moving a couple of people into FC. I’ve never heard before of anyone getting a helpful free upgrade triggering a mass refund to everyone else in any mode of transport.

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s a big difference between the free-for-all of declassification and a little bit of targetted customer care in moving a couple of people into FC. I’ve never heard before of anyone getting a helpful free upgrade triggering a mass refund to everyone else in any mode of transport.

Quite. That is exactly the situation.

 

[RPI]

When you say upgrade, do you mean excessing them to First Class, or giving selective passengers freebe upgrades

A free, discretionary upgrade where appropriate, we have the discretion to do this and the customer is handed a "Back on track" voucher to validate it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2026 ==

Of course it does, if free upgrades are being given to those with Std class tickets then what exactly are those who have paid a premium for 1st class actually paying for?

They're paying for the premium that they are getting.

 

[Harpo]

I’ve occasionally had a little bonus, a higher grade of hire car than I paid for, a free ‘thank you’ drink at a hotel we often visit, a complimentary item with a big purchase. I do hope the OP has enjoyed some good fortune of their own along the way?

 

[aaronspence]

It reminds me when I was waiting in line for a flight, we'd paid £110 each, the person behind because he bought it last minute got it for half what we paid, Sure its mildly annoying, but we got the service we were happy to pay for?

 

[py_megapixel]

A few months ago I travelled first class because the advance single was the same price in both classes (or perhaps even slightly cheaper in first, I can't remember). Therefore I got the first class upgrade for free. Surely it would be a bit unreasonable to suggest everyone else in that carriage should have been refunded down to the standard price because of that?

This whole argument is very odd to me. I don't really care what the people sat next to me have paid for their travel because it has no effect on me whatsoever. If I get from A to B safely, on time, in reasonable comfort and with all the amenities I've paid for I'm happy.

In honesty I don't even particularly care if people haven't bought a ticket at all, or sit in first with a standard ticket or whatever.. I wouldn't evade fares personally but there are not enough hours in the day for me to spend any worrying about other people doing so! (alhough it is of course at their risk if they get caught).

 

[Sonic1234]

This whole argument is very odd to me. I don't really care what the people sat next to me have paid for their travel because it has no effect on me whatsoever. If I get from A to B safely, on time, in reasonable comfort and with all the amenities I've paid for I'm happy.

Indeed, on a given train there will be a whole range of ticket prices, and even more variance when you consider what each passenger is worth to the TOC. Someone on a First Anytime using that TOC only will be giving them a fair chunk of cash, someone making a short connection on a low-tier Advance is earning them pence.