Refund for first class not available

[kingston]

I have two tickets I bought recently, both in first class.

On the first, there was no first class accommodation so I travelled in standard class and I need a refund of the difference in fare.

On the second, there was also no first class accommodation so I did not travel and need a refund of the whole ticket.

Who would I apply to for either/both cases - the ticket seller or the train operator?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are only due a refund if First Class was timetabled to be available on the trains you travelled on but was not provided. If you chose a train that only had Standard per the timetable a refund is not available.

I don't know about the case of not travelling because 1st was not available, I'll let others reply to that.

 

[js517]

What was the ticket type of the second ticket and how much did it cost?

 

[island]

I don't know about the case of not travelling because 1st was not available, I'll let others reply to that.

It would be the same as a general desire not to travel – advance ticket not refundable, other types £10 admin fee.

 

[221129]

It would be the same as a general desire not to travel – advance ticket not refundable, other types £10 admin fee.

Would it not be a breach of contract though? Genuine question.

 

[alistairlees]

I have two tickets I bought recently, both in first class.

On the first, there was no first class accommodation so I travelled in standard class and I need a refund of the difference in fare.

On the second, there was also no first class accommodation so I did not travel and need a refund of the whole ticket.

Who would I apply to for either/both cases - the ticket seller or the train operator?

Please could you provide
- the journeys you were making (or planning to make), including the exact itinerary
- the tickets you held for each journey

It should be the retailer that sorts you out in most cases. But we really need the details first to advise properly.

 

[island]

Would it not be a breach of contract though? Genuine question.

The contract already provides for a remedy where first class is unavailable (a partial refund). For a customer to be entitled to repudiate the contract (treat it as at an end), the breach would need to be fundamental – a breach that denies a party the main benefit of the contract.

Whilst I am not the court, or a lawyer, I think both would consider that the main benefit of a first class train ticket from A to B is the right to travel by train from A to B. The non-provision of an ancillary entitlement to travel in a better seat etc. would not seem to me to give the customer a right to repudiate the contract. It would likely be different in the event of, say, a rail tour or a sleeper service, where the comfort levels on board are a more critical part of the service.

In the scenario at hand, however, I am not convinced that the OP would be entitled to a full refund based on the information given.

For completeness, in the event that the refund the customer would receive based on the difference between first and standard class is greater than refund for an unused ticket, they should receive the former. This might arise, for example, if the unused ticket is an advance ticket or is for a very short journey, such that the £10 admin fee is a high percentage of the ticket’s cost.

 

[kingston]

You are only due a refund if First Class was timetabled to be available on the trains you travelled on but was not provided. If you chose a train that only had Standard per the timetable a refund is not available.

I don't know about the case of not travelling because 1st was not available, I'll let others reply to that.

What was the ticket type of the second ticket and how much did it cost?

They were both Advance tickets, so that's as good as timetabled to me.

It would be the same as a general desire not to travel – advance ticket not refundable, other types £10 admin fee.

If I bought a first class (advance) ticket and no first class was available that'll be a straightforward refund under Consumer Rights Act. I assume NRCoC allows this too (?) but that's a bonus if so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 May 2021 ==

The contract already provides for a remedy where first class is unavailable (a partial refund). For a customer to be entitled to repudiate the contract (treat it as at an end), the breach would need to be fundamental – a breach that denies a party the main benefit of the contract.

Whilst I am not the court, or a lawyer, I think both would consider that the main benefit of a first class train ticket from A to B is the right to travel by train from A to B. The non-provision of an ancillary entitlement to travel in a better seat etc. would not seem to me to give the customer a right to repudiate the contract. It would likely be different in the event of, say, a rail tour or a sleeper service, where the comfort levels on board are a more critical part of the service.

In the scenario at hand, however, I am not convinced that the OP would be entitled to a full refund based on the information given.

For completeness, in the event that the refund the customer would receive based on the difference between first and standard class is greater than refund for an unused ticket, they should receive the former. This might arise, for example, if the unused ticket is an advance ticket or is for a very short journey, such that the £10 admin fee is a high percentage of the ticket’s cost.

IANAL but I'd expect somewhere between the Consumer Rights Act and the Unfair Contract Terms Act that not providing the product as described or substituting a key part of it regarding regardless of whether the contract allows it is not allowed.

 

[island]

They were both Advance tickets, so that's as good as timetabled to me.

That is potentially, but not necessarily, correct. I travelled yesterday on a first class advance ticket which covered four trains. Two of them conveyed first class accommodation (which I duly used) and two did not. It is unclear whether the OP's ticket covered multiple trains, although for the reasons below, nothing turns on this.

If I bought a first class (advance) ticket and no first class was available that'll be a straightforward refund under Consumer Rights Act. I assume NRCoC allows this too (?) but that's a bonus if so.

Which section of the Consumer Rights Act 2005 (or the NRCoT) do you believe grants such a right?

IANAL but I'd expect somewhere between the Consumer Rights Act and the Unfair Contract Terms Act that not providing the product as described or substituting a key part of it regarding regardless of whether the contract allows it is not allowed.

Non-provision of a first class seat for a passenger who holds a first class ticket on that train is a breach of contract. The remedy for the breach, as I described above, is a partial price reduction (i.e. a partial refund) under section 56 of the Consumer Rights Act or section 31 of the NRCoT. Contrary to popular belief, a breach of contract by a party does not automatically grant another party the right to repudiate (cancel) the contract.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Out of interest what was the route that the first class accomodation wasn't available? Seems a little strange that 2 days on the trot that it wouldn't be available when scheduled as most services are generally running with the "correct" unit types at the momemt

 

[robbeech]

Out of interest what was the route that the first class accomodation wasn't available? Seems a little strange that 2 days on the trot that it wouldn't be available when scheduled as most services are generally running with the "correct" unit types at the momemt

What data are you using to determine that "most services are generally running with the correct unit types"?


Either way, 30.1 of the NRCOT states

30.1. If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged. This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as Advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable......

my bold.


Providing the train you were booked on SHOULD have had first class accommodation and this was not a connecting leg to the main part of the journey then i see no reason why both should not be refundable, in part for the first one, and in full for the second one.
As this was an advanced ticket and first class guarantees you a seat then it is in my mind unquestionable that your reservation was not honoured. As a result of this you decided not to travel, and are due a full refund without admin fee.
Any rejection of this would need to be provided with a reasonable explanation that would not be deemed ambiguous. I see no way they could do this, so any rejection would simply be the retailer trying it on.


As for the first ticket, this shouldn't be an issue, most retailers refund the difference between the same tier in 1st and Standard although the wording in the NRCOT doesn't actually favour the passenger as much as people would like, so it is in my mind, not necessarily as clear cut as the second one, contrary to what many had thought.

 

[yorkie]

Are you able to provide the info requested by @alistairlees ? Without knowing the full facts, it's not practicable to advise on this matter.