Reform UK discussion

[Cdd89]

The small boat people aren't the reason the NHS is knackered, the Royal Navy can't put a single nuclear attack submarine to sea for months at a time, or why young people can't afford a house and have to live in house shares into their 30s. They're a problem but if they all vanished tomorrow all those things would still be broken.

I agree with you, but given that they are widely (incorrectly) believed to be the cause, I would say this is a really strong reason for addressing it.
Once irregular boat crossings are down, people would be forced to confront the actual solutions and trade-offs involved, many of which would be unpopular but necessary.

(Sometimes I think politicians don't want to stop boat crossings because they provide a useful scapegoat, in a similar way to how I think Reform don't want actual power - either they fail to stop the boat crossings, or they succeed and fail to solve the problems they said they were causing...)

 

[SuspectUsual]

The boat stuff is a symptom of Brexit

I think to be precise it is a symptom of the Brexit withdrawal agreement.

(For evidence, look at the numbers arriving by boat before and after our formal withdrawal from the EU)

Unfortunately, it feeds Farage's "Brexit isn't the problem, the problem is that Brexit wasn't done properly" attack line, and enables him to continue pointing out the failings of other Governments without having a serious policy of his own

 

[35B]

The links between far-right groups, and foreign money needs to be investigated, you can't tell me that 300 far right activists suddenly decided to turn up at Dover, and then at Portsmouth, it had to be organised and funded,

Farage, and others are the soft-focus front men, but behind them, are real thugs' intent on ensuring they make the headlines, and instil fear to further a certain agenda, one of that the country is under threat that law and order need to go, and a hard authoritarian regime is needed to ensure safety, but at the cost of everyone's rights,

If we are at war with each other, who does it help? and why?

The answer is regimes like Israel, regimes like Russia, Israel for example is known to lobby and have interests in western countries, Countries that are critical of the present Israeli government's actions, Russia seeks to undermine the wests collective strengths, Trade, Nato, and of course it is at war with a country looking to the west for aid, and support its already bought the US, in the shape of the Trump family, and gotten into American politics with donations to groups that want the US to be isolationist ,

Israel again uses its intelligence agencies to ensure the western governments are supportive of its aims, and of course Putin, Neynayaho and Trump are all now embroiled in wars, that they need to be seen to win, because their own lives depend on it, all three face prison if they lose power, possibly their lives.

I suggest reading "The Year of the Rat" by Henry Shukman to understand a little more of the various circles that exist. But one of the key things that comes from that is a sense that much of this is not about party politics as we normally understand them, but something less tangible and more insidious.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm well aware of this fact, but why is it so significant?

it is the same as going on about "fighting age men" - it is all about a narrative of invasion. I have asked before: If it is an invasion who is commanding it? If they know who it is why dont they tell us? Surely Nige and his boys will send the SAS to take out this evil mastermind on day one?

 

[martin butler]

I suggest reading "The Year of the Rat" by Henry Shukman to understand a little more of the various circles that exist. But one of the key things that comes from that is a sense that much of this is not about party politics as we normally understand them, but something less tangible and more insidious.

Oh I agree, it goes beyond normal politics, it also goes beyond national borders, its influence and funding being used by people who are beyond national governments, the likes of Elon Musk, for example, its others such as Steve Bannon, who find common cause with groups on the right, its faceless pressure groups whose funding is best described as opaque, and there's people who are using unrest to further their own agendas

 

[S101]

By the way, I'm still not sure why you keep emphasising the point that they're mainly men. I'm well aware of this fact, but why is it so significant?

The ideology they tend to bring(very right wing in their own right). Their views on how to treat women. Acceptance of other minority groups in the UK.

But someone will be along shortly to say that's not the case and that it's an irrational fear/paranoia.

 

[AlterEgo]

As to the reasons they are here with nothing to do, that's out of the control of Brian, aged 56, truck driver from Barnsley. He's just annoyed, because the Conservatives had a go, Labour has got a go, and nothing is changing in the locality he lives.

He's not Racist. He's not Far Right. He pays his 40% Tax, and doesn't agree with the way his contribution is divided out.

Some of the most vocal people who oppose asylum seekers *are* racist. This is why there is not a grand coalition to agree a solution. People don't like aligning with racists and there even feels jeopardy in being a Normal Guy pointing out things like "a lot of these people should not be here and they do not generally bring a benefit to British society". They don't, I'm afraid. If they did bring benefit they'd have come on a visa to fill a skills shortfall. It is entirely possible to think that and also at the same time think every asylum seeker is in some way vulnerable or desperate and deserving of compassion and safety while in our custody, even if that means in the end they do not get to stay here and we say "sorry, you are being deported".

My wife is an immigrant and came to the UK on a visa. This was an expensive and stressful process and only possible because she had worked extremely hard and was filling a skills shortage on an old style Tier 2 visa. She paid an NHS surcharge for every year she was here too (that is about £1000 a year now) despite being of an age where she would rarely need to use it. To her, asylum seekers getting free health care and dentistry is a piss take. This is a common viewpoint among immigrants who have arrived on visas, including a friend of hers who grew up as a black girl in apartheid South Africa.

But because a lot of the right simply *are* racist and have a problematic aesthetic, people don't like to admit these obvious facts in case it looks like they just hate asylum seekers because a lot of them are Muslim or brown or black or whatever. And most decent people don't want to feel on the same side as those guys. Ultimately most middle of the road Brits feel that the way we treat vulnerable people is a reflection on us as a society and the feeling is a lot of the right simply have an interest in cruelty being part of a strategy of deterrence.

 

[GusB]

The ideology they tend to bring(very right wing in their own right). Their views on how to treat women. Acceptance of other minority groups in the UK.

But someone will be along shortly to say that's not the case and that it's an irrational fear/paranoia.

What ideology? You're making a bit of a sweeping statement by suggesting that they all have poor attitudes to women and other minority groups. I assume that the word you're avoiding is "Muslim". Isn't it rather discriminatory to lump everyone in together?

 

[Cdd89]

The ideology they tend to bring(very right wing in their own right). Their views on how to treat women. Acceptance of other minority groups in the UK.
But someone will be along shortly to say that's not the case and that it's an irrational fear/paranoia.

I would say that is mostly an irrational fear, I don't think the views of those who specifically leave their own culture are that entrenched; someone really strongly of those views would be able to practice them better in their home countries, being in part the reason many such countries are unsafe for certain groups.

However I do agree with you that it is significant. Fundamentally it is very odd that we bias our asylum policy in favour of this demographic, when you would expect those most in need of our help to be from other demographics. That is not to say these people are not deserving, but anything that makes physical endurance a de facto part of the process for a given channel of entry is very wrong.

 

[DarloRich]

What ideology? You're making a bit of a sweeping statement by suggesting that they all have poor attitudes to women and other minority groups. I assume that the word you're avoiding is "Muslim". Isn't it rather discriminatory to lump everyone in together?

Is it though? I would have agreed with you until recently but now I am not so sure. Local response to the LGBT club down the road burning down was "informative".

 

[Harpo]

The small boat people aren't the reason the NHS is knackered, the Royal Navy can't put a single nuclear attack submarine to sea for months at a time, or why young people can't afford a house and have to live in house shares into their 30s. They're a problem but if they all vanished tomorrow all those things would still be broken.

Quite. A nation with multiple issues, and an increasingly difficult place for it’s have-nots, being persuaded by a charismatic politician that various scapegoats are the cause and must be removed.

 

[Cdd89]

Quite. A nation with multiple issues, and an increasingly difficult place for it’s have-nots, being persuaded by a charismatic politician that various scapegoats are the cause and must be removed.

I would only take issue to the extent that it it benefits all politicians, not just the charismatic far-right ones, to have migrants as a scapegoat. In fact it arguably benefits incumbents (Tories and Labour) the most. Labour's language clearly uses them as a scapegoat (I recall Burnham stating that the entire country needed to do its bit, implying they are a burden) and just have different solutions for how to reduce it.

 

[GusB]

Is it though? I would have agreed with you until recently but now I am not so sure. Local response to the LGBT club down the road burning down was "informative".

I'm not suggesting that nobody who comes here in a small boat holds such attitudes, but I don't believe in tarring everyone with the same brush, either. Let's not forget that some seek asylum because they're LGBTQ+, so everyone deserves a fair hearing.

Some followers of Islam will have more hardline attitudes, but there are also followers of other religions who exhibit similar levels of intolerance. '

 

[S101]

Is it though? I would have agreed with you until recently but now I am not so sure. Local response to the LGBT club down the road burning down was "informative".

WOW, I never thought I'd hear you say that

 

[ainsworth74]

I agree with you, but given that they are widely (incorrectly) believed to be the cause, I would say this is a really strong reason for addressing it.
Once irregular boat crossings are down, people would be forced to confront the actual solutions and trade-offs involved, many of which would be unpopular but necessary.

(Sometimes I think politicians don't want to stop boat crossings because they provide a useful scapegoat, in a similar way to how I think Reform don't want actual power - either they fail to stop the boat crossings, or they succeed and fail to solve the problems they said they were causing...)

Oh yes don't get me wrong, I believe that it needs to be tackled and I'm glad to see that it is being tackled robustly. Part of me suspects that the reason we're suddenly seeing masked men roving around is precisely because it's being tackled so those who have an interest in making sure that it continues to feel like a crisis need to find a new way of whipping things up.

Some of the most vocal people who oppose asylum seekers *are* racist. This is why there is not a grand coalition to agree a solution. People don't like aligning with racists and there even feels jeopardy in being a Normal Guy pointing out things like "a lot of these people should not be here and they do not generally bring a benefit to British society". They don't, I'm afraid. If they did bring benefit they'd have come on a visa to fill a skills shortfall. It is entirely possible to think that and also at the same time think every asylum seeker is in some way vulnerable or desperate and deserving of compassion and safety while in our custody, even if that means in the end they do not get to stay here and we say "sorry, you are being deported".

My wife is an immigrant and came to the UK on a visa. This was an expensive and stressful process and only possible because she had worked extremely hard and was filling a skills shortage on an old style Tier 2 visa. She paid an NHS surcharge for every year she was here too (that is about £1000 a year now) despite being of an age where she would rarely need to use it. To her, asylum seekers getting free health care and dentistry is a piss take. This is a common viewpoint among immigrants who have arrived on visas, including a friend of hers who grew up as a black girl in apartheid South Africa.

But because a lot of the right simply *are* racist and have a problematic aesthetic, people don't like to admit these obvious facts in case it looks like they just hate asylum seekers because a lot of them are Muslim or brown or black or whatever. And most decent people don't want to feel on the same side as those guys. Ultimately most middle of the road Brits feel that the way we treat vulnerable people is a reflection on us as a society and the feeling is a lot of the right simply have an interest in cruelty being part of a strategy of deterrence.

Very well said. I would think that most people would struggle to disagree with the substance of that view. Certainly it matches my own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just think that the vitriol is out with the scale of the problem. The small boat people aren't the reason the NHS is knackered, the Royal Navy can't put a single nuclear attack submarine to sea for months at a time, or why young people can't afford a house and have to live in house shares into their 30s. They're a problem but if they all vanished tomorrow all those things would still be broken.

The small boat people specifically not, but the increase in the UK's population by about 10 million in my lifetime absolutely is quite a big problem (or at least has caused such problems). The reason this has happened is largely that with an ageing population the benefits system is in effect a Ponzi scheme, and politicians aren't willing to have the hard discussions that would be needed to be able to move away from such growth.

Who those people are is less important BUT it is true that almost all recent terrorism, which has resulted in a number of constraints on daily life (many of them just irritants such as increased security, but they do exist) is largely of very specific origins. So a level of disquiet relating to high levels of immigration of people from such origins is at the very least explainable.

 

[DarloRich]

WOW, I never thought I'd hear you say that

We also don't need or want fascistesque militia dressed all in black roaming the streets causing bother and alarm.

BTW - I doubt the people near me have arrived on little boats.

 

[brad465]

The small boat people specifically not, but the increase in the UK's population by about 10 million in my lifetime absolutely is quite a big problem (or at least has caused such problems). The reason this has happened is largely that with an ageing population the benefits system is in effect a Ponzi scheme, and politicians aren't willing to have the hard discussions that would be needed to be able to move away from such growth.

Who those people are is less important BUT it is true that almost all recent terrorism, which has resulted in a number of constraints on daily life (many of them just irritants such as increased security, but they do exist) is largely of very specific origins. So a level of disquiet relating to high levels of immigration of people from such origins is at the very least explainable.

I reckon had we not joined in/aided the bombing of several countries like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, the number of terrorism offences, and the number of people coming here from these countries would be lower. Not the only factor in all this, but a big one many don't want to talk about.

The Ponzi Scheme point though is also valid and explains high legal migration.

 

[martin butler]

Well I have a very real issue with what is by the look of it paramilitary groups taking over the streets, acting as if they are some legally appointed force, they are not, and they might actually be breaking the law, if we want to stop the boats, we have to stop the reason people risk their lives for in the first place,

We need to tackle the problem at source by having vetting and initial checks done in France, then those that pass first stage, get put on coaches and brought over driven direct to Manston, where more in-depth checks are done to confirm identity and validly before being moved on, having already passed the criteria, so that they are just awaiting the final decision,

It won't please the bigots, and racists, because they really don't want any person not the same as them here, and those that can stay, they only want people to do the jobs they feel are below them, then to deport them once they reach old age, so they can somehow feel superior.

 

[D1537]

He's not Racist. He's not Far Right. He pays his 40% Tax, and doesn't agree with the way his contribution is divided out. Let's face it, he's not funding an NHS apprenticeship and education for these, generally men. They will not be employed by the NHS. The NHS argument is not applicable in the context of Small Boat arrivals.

He's just annoyed. And people calling Brian a Far Right Thug for having an opinion, because that's all it is, is really not helpful.

But when Brian's vote puts a bunch of far-right bigots in charge of people's lives, that makes him no better than them.

Old German saying: "If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there not disagreeing with him, you have a table with 11 Nazis."

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon had we not joined in/aided the bombing of several countries like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, the number of terrorism offences, and the Aberdeen of people coming here from these countries would be lower. Not the only factor in all this, but a big one many don't want to talk about.

Certainly. There are many things that have happened that may explain (not justify) this.

The Ponzi Scheme point though is also valid and explains high legal migration.

Indeed. The influx from eastern Europe was itself a bit of an issue though most Polish/Romanian people who have stayed have now integrated well (e.g. my best mate!) and added a few features the UK didn't previously have e.g. hand car washes and Polish shops (and related stuff in the supermarket) which all but the most xenophobic probably think as worthwhile additions. And most people probably think Indian (usually actually Bangladeshi) restaurants and the likes a pretty good addition too!

But the large numbers in a short period of time have caused challenges - the levels of rents being one of the most notable.

FWIW I think the Polish/Romanian immigrants have proven, after a settling in period, to be a genuine good addition to the UK, sharing their and our culture together and largely not ghettoising (and where they have they've usually improved places that were once considered rough).

 

[jon0844]

Well I have a very real issue with what is by the look of it paramilitary groups taking over the streets, acting as if they are some legally appointed force, they are not, and they might actually be breaking the law, if we want to stop the boats, we have to stop the reason people risk their lives for in the first place,

I doubt they're any more bothered about the boats than Nigel and the others. The boats are necessary to keep people angry, and vote for parties that don't represent their best interests.

The organiser of the recent 'protests' (without banners) that were supposedly spontaneous despite video showing they arrived in the back of white vans has admitted to taking donations from American interests, who presumably want to fund these 'protests' because it absolutely intimidates local people and furthers the narrative.

They haven't attacked anyone or done anything wrong, yet, and I saw a video (linked below) where he spoke to Zia Yusuf and pretty much makes it clear that they're forming a group that will vote en masse for whoever Danny tells them to. So the word is out; we're going to continue to do this and if you want our support, you support us (he wants a message passed to Nigel Farage to back them).

When asked about a car damaged, he says that was the left wanting to make them look bad.. and they need to cover their faces because the left will go after them (even if they've done nothing wrong or illegal?!).

It makes sense that wealthy donors are getting impatient about having rules and regulations relaxed, and they want to try and cause friction and ultimately push for a new general election as soon as possible. For Reform, their popularity has probably got to the point that it's already too late for them to stand a chance of winning as they might have done earlier in the year.

Perhaps Danny Tommo will try and snuggle up with Restore, or see if he can get the Tories to 'endorse' him.

Frankly, why are we allowing men in black clothing and face coverings to manipulate anyone? Nobody has a clue who they are and what their backgrounds are. Are they working class? Are they in fact well off people who represent the businesses that want regulations axed and worker protections scaled back? Who knows!

 

[35B]

I doubt they're any more bothered about the boats than Nigel and the others. The boats are necessary to keep people angry, and vote for parties that don't represent their best interests.

The organiser of the recent 'protests' (without banners) that were supposedly spontaneous despite video showing they arrived in the back of white vans has admitted to taking donations from American interests, who presumably want to fund these 'protests' because it absolutely intimidates local people and furthers the narrative.

They haven't attacked anyone or done anything wrong, yet, and I saw a video (linked below) where he spoke to Zia Yusuf and pretty much makes it clear that they're forming a group that will vote en masse for whoever Danny tells them to. So the word is out; we're going to continue to do this and if you want our support, you support us (he wants a message passed to Nigel Farage to back them).

When asked about a car damaged, he says that was the left wanting to make them look bad.. and they need to cover their faces because the left will go after them (even if they've done nothing wrong or illegal?!).

It makes sense that wealthy donors are getting impatient about having rules and regulations relaxed, and they want to try and cause friction and ultimately push for a new general election as soon as possible. For Reform, their popularity has probably got to the point that it's already too late for them to stand a chance of winning as they might have done earlier in the year.

Perhaps Danny Tommo will try and snuggle up with Restore, or see if he can get the Tories to 'endorse' him.

Frankly, why are we allowing men in black clothing and face coverings to manipulate anyone? Nobody has a clue who they are and what their backgrounds are. Are they working class? Are they in fact well off people who represent the businesses that want regulations axed and worker protections scaled back? Who knows!

There are out and out racists, who are organising because they believe that the political moment favours them and their cause. The donors aren't that bothered about elections - they're sponsoring people and organisations who they think will get results.

They fear "the left" because they don't accept that any other views have legitimacy, which means anyone who does oppose them is "left wing" - a frightening and typical piece of circular logic.

As for the thugs who cursed Dover and Portsmouth with their presence, what impresses (and therefore frightens) me is how their leaders managed to get them to behave more or less well on these protests shows of strength. That's different to what we've seen previously, and suggests a level more planning and control. The sooner that the police start using the powers that legislators have given them, going back at least to Mosley's blackshirts, the happier I'll be. But that will require government and police (including Reform and possibly (based on interviews yesterday) Conservative PCCs) to be willing to face into the storm of the online right claiming their right to free speech is being impeded.

 

[AlterEgo]

As for the thugs who cursed Dover and Portsmouth with their presence, what impresses (and therefore frightens) me is how their leaders managed to get them to behave more or less well on these protests shows of strength. That's different to what we've seen previously, and suggests a level more planning and control

Indeed, that is the unsettling thing. It's like how when paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland used to do shows of strength the point was to appear determined and organised, not be a ragtag bunch of hooligans.

 

[Killingworth]

There are out and out racists, who are organising because they believe that the political moment favours them and their cause. The donors aren't that bothered about elections - they're sponsoring people and organisations who they think will get results.

They fear "the left" because they don't accept that any other views have legitimacy, which means anyone who does oppose them is "left wing" - a frightening and typical piece of circular logic.

As for the thugs who cursed Dover and Portsmouth with their presence, what impresses (and therefore frightens) me is how their leaders managed to get them to behave more or less well on these protests shows of strength. That's different to what we've seen previously, and suggests a level more planning and control. The sooner that the police start using the powers that legislators have given them, going back at least to Mosley's blackshirts, the happier I'll be. But that will require government and police (including Reform and possibly (based on interviews yesterday) Conservative PCCs) to be willing to face into the storm of the online right claiming their right to free speech is being impeded.

Whatever and whoever they are they were well organised and disciplined. Inspired by Reform/Restore rhetoric the Dover operation was planned well in advance and kept secret. I suspect cars were picking up natonwide before final approaches to Dover.

The black dressed example I saw in Sheffield on Friday morning must have been waiting for pick up. How far did some of them come? They swooped very early. Where did they assemble? Were trains used? It was much wider than Kent.

Organising such a demonstration, apparently without hints getting through to police, was a different operation to the more spontaneous operation in Hampshire. Both are causes for concern, not least because they remind all of us that the issue has been brewing for too many years.

 

[35B]

Whatever and whoever they are they were well organised and disciplined. Inspired by Reform/Restore rhetoric the Dover operation was planned well in advance and kept secret. I suspect cars were picking up natonwide before final approaches to Dover.

The black dressed example I saw in Sheffield on Friday morning must have been waiting for pick up. How far did some of them come? They swooped very early. Where did they assemble? Were trains used? It was much wider than Kent.

Organising such a demonstration, apparently without hints getting through to police, was a different operation to the more spontaneous operation in Hampshire. Both are causes for concern, not least because they remind all of us that the issue has been brewing for too many years.

I'm not convinced that this was organised by Restore or Reform, or inspired by their rhetoric. We too easily assume that they are the radical right in British politics, and that others jump to their deamnds.

The reality is the other way round - there are plenty on the right who don't wait for Lowe or Farage, but are if anything trying to get them to be more radical. That dynamic is obvious within Reform (compare Farage and Yusuf, for example), but is more widespread.

Reform and Restore need to be made to suffer, not for supporting these protests, but for not condemning them effectively.

 

[edwin_m]

He's not Racist. He's not Far Right. He pays his 40% Tax, and doesn't agree with the way his contribution is divided out.

Is he aware that the numbers of small boat arrivals, migrants in hotels etc are actually reducing?

As a sample, I followed the second link. Nothing in the linked article even suggests weapons were found in a small boat. It is about possession of videos of weapons in Yemen.

I bet he's a really nice person, the person with those videos, who is the subject of that article. A real saint.

If you want to make a convincing argument then I suggest you get your facts right and don't just change the subject when someone points out they are wrong.

 

[DarloRich]

The stuff about the RNLI is outrageously disgusting even for this mob. Disgraceful.

 

[yorkie]

Anglesey Watches And Clocks

Thought hard about this over the past few days but decided that basic decency comes first.

www.facebook.com

Thought hard about this over the past few days but decided that basic decency comes first....

Why this Anglesey shopkeeper has banned Reform UK supporters from his store

A man from Anglesey has banned Reform UK supporters from his shop after comments made by Nigel Farage and Robert Jenrick.

www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk

A MAN from Anglesey has banned Reform UK supporters from his shop after comments made by party leader Nigel Farage and member Robert Jenrick about an incident at its conference...

I'd like to see more of this.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who still wants to support Reform after recent events isn't welcome anywhere I'm at, and I can't really imagine any decent person would want to associate themselves with people who support assaulting women in that way.

 

[Brightonboy]

The stuff about the RNLI is outrageously disgusting even for this mob. Disgraceful.

Agreed; the RNLI crews themselves are tasked by HMCG to conduct searches for and rescues of people in danger and they launch making no judgement whatsoever about the merits of those they go to. It matters not to the crews whether it is a professional mariner with an unforeseeable emergency, an individual making poor choices to go to sea in an unseaworthy craft or whilst under the influence of drink or other substances or threatening self-harm (sometimes on repeated occasions) in harbours or from piers or, indeed, people attempting long voyages without 'normal' documentation or maritime competence. Once a rescue is made, it is HMCG who determine the landing place for the casualties and co-ordinate with the other agencies accordingly. The RNLI crews are emphatically not facilitating illegal immigration, they are saving lives that have been determined to be at risk, End Of.