Reform UK discussion

[SuspectUsual]

Unless it’s English (and badly misspelt when typed) they probably wouldn’t give a hoot about any of our ancient languages

Cornish = forrin

 

[Krokodil]

I always thought that Reform was in favour of preserving "British culture", so surely efforts to preserve the Cornish language align with that goal?

No, they're English nationalist. They're no supporters of the Welsh language either.

It always makes me chuckle when you refer to efforts towards preserving minority languages as political when the decline of those languages is partly down to political decisions.

Of course both are political, what's peculiar about that?

By your logic, anything which is a conscious and deliberate revival is not conservative, which cannot possible be a meaningful use of the word beyond semantics.

From Wikipedia:

Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy and ideology that seeks to promote and preserve traditional institutions, customs, and values.

Once a custom - and the collective memory of it- has died out, then there's nothing to preserve, you'd be resurrecting it. The monarchy hadn't quite died out - Charles II was alive and many people remembered the monarchy. Brexit was arguably a conservative act in that it restored the status quo many voters recalled from their youth.

 

[The Ham]

Unless it’s English (and badly misspelt when typed) they probably wouldn’t give a hoot about any of our ancient languages. Heck, I doubt they even know of Kernewek/Welsh ancient languages.

Indeed, arguably Cornish and Welsh are languages derived from Celtish roots are far more native to the area of England than English which is a blending native Germanic dialects with heavy doses of Old Norse, Latin, Norman French, and Greek.

In terms of timeline:
English - Brought by 5th-century invaders
Welsh/Cornish - Indigenous since around 800BCE

Although Old English is effectively a foreign language and so arguably it was only much later when things start to be more easily understood (even 500 years ago the English language is likely to require a bit of processing to be understood - see Shakespeare's works, it's often easy enough to know what's said but there's words and phrases which when first encountered may cause people to pause to try and work it out ).

Even if someone learns Cornish and never uses it, there's wider linguist advantages (like sentence order, different letter sounds, etc) which can provide useful building tools when looking at other languages (even if that's different to Cornish, the understanding that word order changes and extra letter sounds are needed, makes the step to learning a different type far easier).

 

[nw1]

Once a custom - and the collective memory of it- has died out, then there's nothing to preserve, you'd be resurrecting it. The monarchy hadn't quite died out - Charles II was alive and many people remembered the monarchy. Brexit was arguably a conservative act in that it restored the status quo many voters recalled from their youth.

Not sure about the latter, for most people being in the EEC at the very least was the norm so Brexit is for most people a radical-right, rather than a small-c conservative, action. Someone just old enough to vote in 1972 in the "good" old days before the evil EEC would be 61/62 by 2016. (WIth that in mind it's surprising how many under-60s voted for Brexit as they were voting for a return of something they can't really remember. Still, hey, all our problems are apparently caused by EU immigrants and not at all by corporate greed or inadequate government spending, so jolly good job).

 

[Harpo]

Brexit was arguably a conservative act in that it restored the status quo many voters recalled from their youth.

That marvellous age of intense industrial activity that needed the Windrush generation to come here and keep it going?

 

[nw1]

As for semantics, this pedant feels they do matter - and, again back to Reform, the use of the word "conservative" is actively misleading as a description of a party that wishes to enact radical change (see also MAGA & quite a lot of what the Tory Party have done in recent years). By giving them that word to use as a self-description, we blind ourselves to their true nature.

Exactly. Some of us want to "conserve" many of the good things that have become the norm in recent decades, and don't want the radical-right to take them away. As I age I am getting less and less bothered by small-c conservatism but more and more enraged by, and fearful of, right-wing radicalism. It's right-wing radicalism that is the real problem, not just in the UK but across the western world at large, today - and we all, IMO, need to see right-wing radicalism for the threat to our way of life and the menace that it is.

Is being pro-LGBT+ rights, and immigrant rights, nowadays actually small-c conservative in one sense, I wonder, in the sense that recent decades have seen advances in these areas, but the radical right threaten to reverse them?

Perhaps when people say we get more and more right-wing as we get older, what they actually mean is that people get more and more small-c conservative - but that doesn't necessarily mean right-wing. It means, perhaps, conserving selected cultural norms of our late-teens, 20s and 30s (according to our inherent left/right political bias), whatever those were.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2026 ==

Ah, but Reform councils don't seem to be too averse to "frivolous" spending when it suits their own agenda:

Reform UK council's £75,000 flags project begins

A total of 164 union jack flags will be displayed in 82 locations under the scheme.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'd rather see money spent on keeping one of our indigenous languages going than waving a flag from every lamppost.

The party that wants to "cut waste", spending council tax money transforming Nottinghamshire into something resembling a militantly unionist area of Belfast?

If I lived in Notts I'd be furious about these people spending my council tax in this way.

Besides, if these councils want to attract people with skills and talent to live in the area and improve the economy, they're not going about it the right way. If I had skills and talent and was given the choice of living in a Reform area and a selection of non-Reform areas, I'd pick the non-Reform areas every time. These councils are trashing the image of their county, and they should think long and hard about that.

 

[35B]

That marvellous age of intense industrial activity that needed the Windrush generation to come here and keep it going?

Most such projects are highly romanticised and miss important parts of what was really there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2026 ==

Brexit was arguably a conservative act in that it restored the status quo many voters recalled from their youth.

Possibly, though its advocates were generally radical in their desire to create a new order in place of that defined by the EU. And while it was predominantly a project of the right, the same was also true of those promoting it from the left.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I'm well aware that the dying back of both Welsh and Irish was far from natural; I honestly don't know about Cornish.

More generally, I've a fairly utilitarian view of language which is based in the here and now, and what is of use to people today. So when, a few weeks ago, I heard a teacher in Launceston proudly stating that his school was teaching Cornish as a foreign language, my heart sank at the time that pupils were investing in a language which they are unlikely to use in day to day life, which will not help them elsewhere, and where scarce syllabus time means that they will lose the opportunity to learn foreign languages that may serve them practically.

Nationalists in many places have used language, quite deliberately, as a wedge issue - and Cornish is quite literally the thin end of one such wedge. Where those languages have been dominated by a national tongue, whether that's the Celtic tongues in Britain (English), Breton (French), Czech or Slovak (German, under the Habsburg Empire), Catalan (Spanish), or others, the campaign for language rights has been used as a mobilising force for a nationalist project. It has bound identity with language, and been used to draw points of difference against the ruling power. Sometimes (Irish being a notable example), it has been a conscious top down strategy, at other times it's been more genuinely a bottom up pressure (notably in the Habsburg Empire).

The Cornish project is at the more deliberate end of the spectrum, because the base was so low (see earlier comment about knowledge beyond that). From outside, the campaign seems designed to create a deeper and more separate identity.

For that reason, I don't have a problem with local politicians going "really?" and curtailing funding. What, however, I find grimly amusing is that this is being done by a party that uses identity as a wedge issue, and in a way that could be designed to alienate those who don't feel "English" (and Reform don't understand the difference between "English" and "British").

Deary me. Cornwall has a long and proud history with a very distinct identity and culture - that is to be celebrated isn't it rather than ridiculed? Most of the place names are Anglicised Cornish and the flag of St. Piran flies everywhere. We don't want to go down the route of Charles de Gaulle supressing Breton (very similar to Cornish) in the '60s or Victorian school teachers supressing Welsh. £170k to promote the Cornish language is peanuts compared to the huge social care bill the council faces - it has a large cohort of retirees, many of whom are ironically 'immigrants' to the county with no Cornish ancestry and from where Reform derive their support.

 

[35B]

Deary me. Cornwall has a long and proud history with a very distinct identity and culture - that is to be celebrated isn't it rather than ridiculed? Most of the place names are Anglicised Cornish and the flag of St. Piran flies everywhere. We don't want to go down the route of Charles de Gaulle supressing Breton (very similar to Cornish) in the '60s or Victorian school teachers supressing Welsh. £170k to promote the Cornish language is peanuts compared to the huge social care bill the council faces - it has a large cohort of retirees, many of whom are ironically 'immigrants' to the county with no Cornish ancestry and from where Reform derive their support.

And local cultural identities exist robustly in many places - without language. I absolutely don't suggest suppression of language; my discomfort (word chosen deliberately against anything stronger) is with the promotion of a language that was functionally extinct.

 

[Purple Train]

In case it cheers anyone up who feels as if Reform is in some inexorable state of victory, there was a council by-election in Slough yesterday that everybody I spoke to assumed was on a knife-edge between the Conservatives and Reform. Reform finished fourth out of five, but split the right-wing vote enough that the Greens squeaked past the Conservatives by five votes. This was despite a high turnout (for a council by-election) which usually tends to favour Reform. Overall, the right-wing vote was down 10% from 2023. So it's not all despair for those of a leftwards persuasion!

 

[Gloster]

In case it cheers anyone up who feels as if Reform is in some inexorable state of victory, there was a council by-election in Slough yesterday that everybody I spoke to assumed was on a knife-edge between the Conservatives and Reform. Reform finished fourth out of five, but split the right-wing vote enough that the Greens squeaked past the Conservatives by five votes. This was despite a high turnout (for a council by-election) which usually tends to favour Reform. Overall, the right-wing vote was down 10% from 2023. So it's not all despair for those of a leftwards persuasion!

I don’t think it is just those of a leftwards persuasion: it is those of a tolerant persuasion.

 

[35B]

I don’t think it is just those of a leftwards persuasion: it is those of a tolerant persuasion.

I was going to say, I'd never vote Green but a Reform defeat is seriously good news. Both in itself, and also for puncturing the voice of inevitability that is essential to their campaigning morale

 

[Tetchytyke]

More generally, I've a fairly utilitarian view of language which is based in the here and now, and what is of use to people today. So when, a few weeks ago, I heard a teacher in Launceston proudly stating that his school was teaching Cornish as a foreign language, my heart sank at the time that pupils were investing in a language which they are unlikely to use in day to day life, which will not help them elsewhere, and where scarce syllabus time means that they will lose the opportunity to learn foreign languages that may serve them practically.

The skill you're learning isn't the language per se, it is the skill of learning a language.

I learned French and Spanish to GSCE level and got A grades in both. I barely use either language. I was in France the other week and laughing about how little use my GSCE French actually was practically. Je joue au foot dans le weekend wasn't a great deal of use. Dos cervezas por favor was perhaps slightly more use when I was in Spain. But I do use the skills that learning those languages at school taught me.

Maybe Cornish, or Welsh, or Manx were functionally extinct. So is Latin yet public schools take great pride in still teaching Latin as a mark of their intellectual rigour. I think the same snobbery that pushed those languages towards extinction- and Cornish and Manx almost died for exactly the same reasons as Welsh- is still an issue. I may be wrong but if that school in Launceston was teaching Latin I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid.

And of course some of it is about language as part of the culture. Here we have Manx on some street signs and most government departments have their names in English and Manx. My work email footer is in English and Manx. I quite like it, it marks the place out as slightly different. My signature on the forum is in Manx.

 

[35B]

The skill you're learning isn't the language per se, it is the skill of learning a language.

I learned French and Spanish to GSCE level and got A grades in both. I barely use either language. I was in France the other week and laughing about how little use my GSCE French actually was practically. Je joue au foot dans le weekend wasn't a great deal of use. Dos cervezas por favor was perhaps slightly more use when I was in Spain. But I do use the skills that learning those languages at school taught me.

Maybe Cornish, or Welsh, or Manx were functionally extinct. So is Latin yet public schools take great pride in still teaching Latin as a mark of their intellectual rigour. I think the same snobbery that pushed those languages towards extinction- and Cornish and Manx almost died for exactly the same reasons as Welsh- is still an issue. I may be wrong but if that school in Launceston was teaching Latin I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid.

And of course some of it is about language as part of the culture. Here we have Manx on some street signs and most government departments have their names in English and Manx. My work email footer is in English and Manx. I quite like it, it marks the place out as slightly different. My signature on the forum is in Manx.

And, having endured 4 years of Latin at school, I pity the pupils being expected to learn it for the sake of the skill. Not to mention that Latin is a declining subject, and that any school introducing it would be pressed to justify the addition to the curriculum in educational terms - a challenge that Cornish is bypassing despite being no more functionally useful

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe Cornish, or Welsh, or Manx were functionally extinct. So is Latin yet public schools take great pride in still teaching Latin as a mark of their intellectual rigour. I think the same snobbery that pushed those languages towards extinction- and Cornish and Manx almost died for exactly the same reasons as Welsh- is still an issue. I may be wrong but if that school in Launceston was teaching Latin I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid.

Agreed. I went to a boys' grammar school and Latin was taught for two reasons - one, to teach intellectual rigour (it was all verb tables and conjugations), and two, to enhance English vocabulary. It was all done on the Cambridge Latin course, now over 50 years old - hello to other CLC sufferers of various ages! So all the hic servus callidus est, coquus optimus est does serve a useful purpose. The school frequently had the best GCSE and A Level results in the county. The snobbery about "utilitarian" principles is why the humanities are in trouble too. Interpreting our world beyond the scientific is an important part of realising our humanity, and school is not there just to teach entrance to university or how to write a letter. it is to teach you how to think, how to enjoy and appreciate learning, and to make minds more enquiring.

My signature on the forum is in Manx.

(It's disappeared by the way!)

 

[35B]

Agreed. I went to a boys' grammar school and Latin was taught for two reasons - one, to teach intellectual rigour (it was all verb tables and conjugations), and two, to enhance English vocabulary. It was all done on the Cambridge Latin course, now over 50 years old - hello to other CLC sufferers of various ages! So all the hic servus callidus est, coquus optimus est does serve a useful purpose. The school frequently had the best GCSE and A Level results in the county. The snobbery about "utilitarian" principles is why the humanities are in trouble too. Interpreting our world beyond the scientific is an important part of realising our humanity, and school is not there just to teach entrance to university or how to write a letter. it is to teach you how to think, how to enjoy and appreciate learning, and to make minds more enquiring.

Having been to a school that recorded over 60 Oxbridge offers to this year's cohort, and regularly features in the top 10 of schools in the country, I'm firmly with you on quality of education being about more than exam passes and university admissions (and, yes, you can read that in several ways!). And as someone who studied Humanities to Masters level and whose son has spent his degree (Music) doing a lot more than just academic study, I'm also there on education about being more than just STEM (oh, and I was very happy for both my kids to do languages to A-Level standard).

However, the brutal reality is that schools have limited time to cover a syllabus that's already very broad. Adding something requires removing something else. And that's where the utilitarian side comes in - how is adding this subject (or even topic) going to add value to these pupils really matters. I'm a primary school governor, in a school that has mixed year classes (Y1/2, 3/4 and 5/6). Major topics in humanities subjects will get about an hour of time over two academic years, because there's so little time over and above the "must dos". If this had come up in my school, I'd have been asking probing questions about where and how this would add value to the pupils before they go to secondary, directly and indirectly. From the interview I heard with the teacher at Launceston, it was far from clear that this had happened - or that the teaching was providing the value adds that are claimed for Latin (claims I'm suspicious of based on my own experience of the subject, also studying the CLC)

 

[nw1]

Agreed. I went to a boys' grammar school and Latin was taught for two reasons - one, to teach intellectual rigour (it was all verb tables and conjugations), and two, to enhance English vocabulary. It was all done on the Cambridge Latin course, now over 50 years old - hello to other CLC sufferers of various ages! So all the hic servus callidus est, coquus optimus est does serve a useful purpose. The school frequently had the best GCSE and A Level results in the county. The snobbery about "utilitarian" principles is why the humanities are in trouble too. Interpreting our world beyond the scientific is an important part of realising our humanity, and school is not there just to teach entrance to university or how to write a letter. it is to teach you how to think, how to enjoy and appreciate learning, and to make minds more enquiring.

"Caecilius est in horto, Caecilius est in horto laborat" I'm guessing?

 

[35B]

"Caecilius est in horto, Caecilius est in horto laborat" I'm guessing?

It's 40 years since I endured that, and a cold shiver just went down my spine!

 

[GusB]

Farage accused of ‘new low’ after reinstating councillor despite racist Facebook post

The Reform UK leader has been urged to reverse the decision

www.independent.co.uk

Nigel Farage has been accused of sinking to a “new low” after a Reform UK councillor who was under investigation following allegations of racist social media activity has been reinstated by the party.

Glenn Gibbins, who was elected to Sunderland City Council in May, was suspended from the party shortly after his election after being accused of posting racist comments online about the city’s Nigerian community.

In March 2024, Mr Gibbins posted online: “Carnt [sic] believe amount of Nigerians in town… should melt them all down and fill in the pot holes!!”

A Reform UK spokesperson said: “Following an internal disciplinary process, Cllr Gibbins has been readmitted to the party and issued with a final written warning. He has apologised for making the post and accepts that it was made in extremely poor taste showing poor judgment.”

I have no words (that can reasonably be expressed without breaching forum rules)...

 

[nw1]

Farage accused of ‘new low’ after reinstating councillor despite racist Facebook post

The Reform UK leader has been urged to reverse the decision

www.independent.co.uk

I have no words (that can reasonably be expressed without breaching forum rules)...

I think this is one of many ways which clearly show that Reform are not just Tories under a new badge, but something altogether more sinister. A dangerous and extreme party, in my opinion. I see that Wikipedia now labels them as "right-wing to far-right", which is in my view fairly accurate. This wording has been present over the last two weeks or so.

Talking of which, I can't find any reference to the recent Belfast rioting, arson, and violent disorder on railforums anywhere, apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere. I also see that they appear to be silent on condemning this too.

I've seen some arguments that the events in Belfast might boost their chances in the current by-election, but I'm not convinced. I suspect your average middle-of-the-road person would take a dim view of a party that refuses to condemn rioting and arson.

 

[Purple Train]

Farage accused of ‘new low’ after reinstating councillor despite racist Facebook post

The Reform UK leader has been urged to reverse the decision

www.independent.co.uk

I have no words (that can reasonably be expressed without breaching forum rules)...

Well quite. No doubt they will plead for tolerance and that "people change" and other sly soundbites. Calling that "poor taste" just shows how rotten the entire party leadership is and how fast decent people need to run away from it. It is laughable.

I think this is one of many ways which clearly show that Reform are not just Tories under a new badge, but something altogether more sinister. A dangerous and extreme party, in my opinion.

I think you're thinking about what the Tories used to be, though, rather than what they've now become. Robert Jenrick was a member of the Conservatives for nearly a year after he spoke about not seeing "another white face" in Handsworth, and was only kicked out because he was planning to defect to Reform. Reform are more overt about it, true, and I think they are more extreme, but I don't think the mainstream Conservatives are all sunshine and roses, even though there are some "wets" left (who will presumably never be allowed to see the light of day under Badenoch, like under Johnson). Less extreme than Reform? Certainly. Still overlapping with Reform in quite a few concerning ways? Also certainly.

The irony is, of course, that if they moved back to a centre-right position they'd probably be in less of a mess.

 

[nw1]

Nobody in England cares about what is happening in Belfast.

Seems to me to be a bit of an over-generalised claim.

You could generalise that to say "nobody in England cares about what is happening in [insert any non-English location around the world here]". I think quite a lot of us do take interest in what goes on beyond the bounds of England.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2026 ==

Well quite. No doubt they will plead for tolerance and that "people change" and other sly soundbites. Calling that "poor taste" just shows how rotten the entire party leadership is and how fast decent people need to run away from it. It is laughable.

I think you're thinking about what the Tories used to be, though, rather than what they've now become. Robert Jenrick was a member of the Conservatives for nearly a year after he spoke about not seeing "another white face" in Handsworth, and was only kicked out because he was planning to defect to Reform. Reform are more overt about it, true, and I think they are more extreme, but I don't think the mainstream Conservatives are all sunshine and roses, even though there are some "wets" left (who will presumably never be allowed to see the light of day under Badenoch, like under Johnson). Less extreme than Reform? Certainly. Still overlapping with Reform in quite a few concerning ways? Also certainly.

The irony is, of course, that if they moved back to a centre-right position they'd probably be in less of a mess.

Indeed - the Tories' best route to success would be to move back to the centre-right.

That said I can see a route to the Tories possibly being the largest party at the next election. People on the right become increasingly concerned that Reform are not a serious party and may produce catastrophic economic damage, and is filled with some blatantly "fruity" characters - so they move back to Badenoch as someone who is still right-wing and rather anti-immigrationist, but seen as a safer pair of hands.

I'm not saying the Tories are good by any means, they're still way too right-wing, but I get the impression they would probably be sensible and pragmatic in power on the economy, at least, while Reform would probably not be.

 

[Harpo]

The Daily Mail appears to be trying to get Makerfield’s Reform sheep back in the pen. Todays headline:

Vote Restore - Get Burnham

Restore ‘is the new home for Neo-Nazis’

It also states Lowe would welcome Tommy Robinson to Restore.

Viewable here in this BBC article.

Newspaper headlines: UK's 'Australia plus' social media ban and 'Russian incursion'

A number of the papers preview the announcement of a ban on social media for under-16s on Monday.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[nw1]

The Daily Mail appears to be trying to get Makerfield’s Reform sheep back in the pen. Todays headline:


It also states Lowe would welcome Tommy Robinson to Restore.

Viewable here in this BBC article.

Newspaper headlines: UK's 'Australia plus' social media ban and 'Russian incursion'

A number of the papers preview the announcement of a ban on social media for under-16s on Monday.

www.bbc.co.uk

So do the Daily Mail really consider Restore too right-wing, is it merely because they think voting Restore will let the filthy red communist Burnham in?

 

[brad465]

The Daily Mail appears to be trying to get Makerfield’s Reform sheep back in the pen. Todays headline:


It also states Lowe would welcome Tommy Robinson to Restore.

Viewable here in this BBC article.

Newspaper headlines: UK's 'Australia plus' social media ban and 'Russian incursion'

A number of the papers preview the announcement of a ban on social media for under-16s on Monday.

www.bbc.co.uk

What would be funny is if Lowe tries to sue the Daily Mail for that.

 

[DerekC]

The last dozen or more posts aren't directly associated with Reform but would make an excellent start to a separate thread about the background to the recent riots in Belfast. In fact I am surprised that there isn't one already. Just a suggestion for the Mods!

 

[Bayum]

Photo doing the rounds of Reform campaigners posing with an ‘I’d rather vote for Saville than Labour’. Extremely poor taste for a party which insists it has no problem with sexism or image problems…

 

[SuspectUsual]

Photo doing the rounds of Reform campaigners posing with an ‘I’d rather vote for Saville than Labour’. Extremely poor taste for a party which insists it has no problem with sexism or image problems…

At least one of them is a councillor, not just a campaigner

 

[AlterEgo]

Photo doing the rounds of Reform campaigners posing with an ‘I’d rather vote for Saville than Labour’. Extremely poor taste for a party which insists it has no problem with sexism or image problems…

That's nothing. Look at this guy.

Disgraced candidate who backed Savile still campaigning for Oxfordshire Reform

A former Hardwick Banbury Reform council candidate, suspended Jimmy Savile support has continued campaigning for the party.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk

A Facebook page, run by Stephen Hartley with the Reform UK logo as its profile, titled "Reform UK Candidate for Hardwick Banbury 2025", shared a post last week, ahead of the May 7 local elections.

Mr Hartley had been listed for the Banbury Hardwick division in the 2025 Oxfordshire County Council election, but was suspended by his party after standing by his support of Jimmy Savile.

 

[Cowley]

The last dozen or more posts aren't directly associated with Reform but would make an excellent start to a separate thread about the background to the recent riots in Belfast. In fact I am surprised that there isn't one already. Just a suggestion for the Mods!

That’s now here:

The current state of politics in Northern Ireland

mods note - split from this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/reform-uk-discussion.285022/ Nobody in England cares about what is happening in Belfast. It's happening in another place and may as well be another country. Whatever loyalists have done in Northern Ireland has no real...

www.railforums.co.uk