SuspectUsual
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Reform UK discussion
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Undoubtedly Farage represents some real problems with how our society works, but it doesn't mean he is the answer. The people who vote for him buy into his victim mentality which is an unattractive quality. Nobody is saying Reform are "wrong" - a daft thing to say about a political opinion. But their voters buy into the exact same victim narrative they deride minority groups for embodying. It's an ugly sort of reverse woke. "Ahhh they're all against us, they hate us" - the Clacton stunt has been pathetic.
Farage is not going to help the English precariat. He doesn't care. It's a big grift he is pulling on some vulnerable, uncritical and low-information voters. He isn't one of them and the precariat is too far degraded as a cultural monolith (which is what the English working class used to be) to produce its own. That's why their saviour is a spiv commodities trader.
I don't dislike Reform voters. Many of them have legitimate grievances and I share some of them. I reject the account upthread that a poster was surprised to find nice people in Clacton. My sports massage therapist is a nailed on Farage voter, but I wouldn't hold that against her. But Farage isn't the answer to the problems facing the country. He's just here to make some money and be a troll.
I doubt many people like Farage any more than they like Trump. They support him because he tells them what they want to hear.
Forcing boats back, rounding up foreigners and sending them home/anywhere, cutting taxes, and all said with plenty of patriotic rhetoric and use of the union flag to insinuate that you're either with him or against him. And if you're against him, you hate your country.
We all know Farage doesn't really give a stuff about immigrants. Sure, I bet he is racist but not to the degree people accuse him of. He just knows he has to convince the base he thinks like them (cue photo of him with a beer in a pub) and that they have the freedom to express their racist views.
Nobody is voting for Reform if it was just about tax cuts and deregulation, coupled with removing human rights protections. But if it's about ensuring the white replacement theory doesn't become reality, he gets them onboard.
Meanwhile he continues to socialise in the private members clubs and organise highly paid speaking gigs around the world. Being an MP is the foot in the door he needs, and he has zero reason to return to Clacton and mingle with the 'nobodies'.
If anyone thinks that they're voting for Reform for any reason other than immigration, can someone please point out at any time that Nigel has talked about other issues? Or when people interviewed on the street haven't talked exclusively about the boats?
It's a one policy party, or at least that's what they want to be seen as because clearly the real purpose is to work for the interests of his donors and the rich and famous.
When Nigel eventually falters, those supporters will go back to the Tories and Reform will be over.
SargeNpton
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This, in a nutshell.
So a lot of people apparently like Nigel Farage, but they must have been washing their hair and unable to attend the big festival he put on as the count took place...
I think this proves my earlier point that people support Farage because they want someone to get rid of foreigners, but they don't actually give a stuff about him as a person.
(Video showing Farage Fest, with open fires outdoors and tents that look like KKK hats)
I think this proves my earlier point that people support Farage because they want someone to get rid of foreigners, but they don't actually give a stuff about him as a person.
(Video showing Farage Fest, with open fires outdoors and tents that look like KKK hats)
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GusB
Established Member
Would you mind telling us what this reason is?
I could guess that it's to do with getting foreigners out of the country, stopping the boats and the "illegals" coming into the country, but you haven't actually stated what it is that you think is the problem.
S101
Member
Not got a clue. Maybe it's because they want to tackle the welfare state.
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GusB
Established Member
Ah, so you're bigging up Nige and his crew for reasons that you're unaware of. That makes sense.
Tackling the welfare state is a big job - could you be more specific?
S101
Member
Give it a rest. Have a cup of tea.
GusB
Established Member
I don't think that my questions were unreasonable. What is the reason for Farage being so popular, and what do you think the problems are with the welfare state?
The memes that I get from a Reform county suggest that all recipients of welfare are viewed as an annoyance who cause them to pay tax. Just a bigger set of scapegoats.
Razorblades
Member
I'll have a stab at five reasons why an alternative agenda to Lab-Con could be popular.
1. Welfare state spending is too high (the bar to accessing state aid has been reduced).
2. Immigration is far higher than at the start of Cameron's term in power.
3. Public services are creaking and at breaking point.
4. Uncritical adherence to the Net Zero project.
5. Earlier and earlier release of prisoners increasing risk in society.
1. Welfare state spending is too high (the bar to accessing state aid has been reduced).
2. Immigration is far higher than at the start of Cameron's term in power.
3. Public services are creaking and at breaking point.
4. Uncritical adherence to the Net Zero project.
5. Earlier and earlier release of prisoners increasing risk in society.
Class73Electro
Member
I will give my personal opinion on these, I am not saying any of them are wrong, and I am sure people are right to feel that way if they feel thats the case.
1) This is partially a problem with living in a capitalist market. The biggest expenditure will always be on the "person/people" the wages bill. So what's happpened? Ways to reduce the labour count. Machines, automation - they're free workers. How many people would get Saturday work in the local supermarket twenty years ago compared to now... you only need 1 person for a lot of self service machines. How many kids do paper rounds these days?. Second to this is a growing population means more pensions.
2) Well... what happened between the start of Cameron's term and now... It involves Reform and a certain indvidual...
3) Loops back to Point 1. Less people working - less money coming in. And lower relative wages means less spending power...
4) Well the planets burning, literally. Yet Net Zero is apparently the biggest evil since the "boat people" (and NZ will lower bills, remove reliance on other nations etc mean cleaner air in towns...)
5) OK agree fair point, but again, see point 3).
Again just thoughts
The point about the requirements for state assistance being reduced is demonstrably untrue, the requirements have been made significantly more stringent. The biggest welfare spending expendiature is the State Pension - it is clearly time to abandon the unsustainable triple-lock.
Yes, that seemed to be a result of Boris Johnson.
Yes, austerity is a failed policy, it killed investment in improvements in ways of working that could make things more efficeint and cost effective, in favour of short term gains. Similarly, privatistion has taken a lot of money out of the system, in the case of water, unsustainable amounts.
Getting in on the ground floor of new technologies is a great way to reindustrialise areas of england that are struggling economically. Unfortunately you are right that there is a lot of focus on performative sacrifice, e.g. those who oppose more North Sea oil, who forget that means that we just buy the same amount of oil from despots in the Middle East instead. With the recent crises, we have seen the dangers on relying on Oil- which is often sourced from very unstable areas of the world.
The current issues are a result of the Conservatives increasing the severity sentencing, whilst closing prisons. Furthermore, when we look at the facts we have the second-highest incarceration rate in Europe. Perhaps it's time to review our approach and prefer rehabilitation and non-custodial options for low-level offenders - I'd rather have rehabilitated people outside the prison system paying into the exchequer, as opposed to paying to keep them in and out of prison for the rest of their lives.
martin butler
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Reform, make promises that, in the real world will create more problems, than it solves, for example,
Removing the minimum wage, people still need to earn enough to live, otherwise the state has to pick up the difference
Reducing the amount of state help, so, let's take the first point, removing the minimum wage, then also reducing, or scrapping universal credit, anyone see the problem?
Removing the triple lock, there needs to be some way that ensures people on state pension, do not fall behind, if inflation and cost of living go up. Politically hitting the poorest, then the pensioners, is a sure way to ensure you never get to form a government again,
Boats, we would have to remove ourselves from several major international laws and the ECHR if reforms policies to stop asylum seekers coming to the UK stand a chance, doing that, will have adverse repercussions on how other countries deal with us, then there's the deportation problem, we need agreement with other countries to be able to return failed asylem seekers
we can't just drop them on the French coast, and say it's your problem, the French navy would turn round any British ship once it enters French waters, so what do you do then, 1000's of migrants, that need to be housed, the more extreme xenophobes would take us down a very dark path, especially if whipped up to such an extent, that they don't view these people as being worth looking after, or protected from extreme violence.
Removing the minimum wage, people still need to earn enough to live, otherwise the state has to pick up the difference
Reducing the amount of state help, so, let's take the first point, removing the minimum wage, then also reducing, or scrapping universal credit, anyone see the problem?
Removing the triple lock, there needs to be some way that ensures people on state pension, do not fall behind, if inflation and cost of living go up. Politically hitting the poorest, then the pensioners, is a sure way to ensure you never get to form a government again,
Boats, we would have to remove ourselves from several major international laws and the ECHR if reforms policies to stop asylum seekers coming to the UK stand a chance, doing that, will have adverse repercussions on how other countries deal with us, then there's the deportation problem, we need agreement with other countries to be able to return failed asylem seekers
we can't just drop them on the French coast, and say it's your problem, the French navy would turn round any British ship once it enters French waters, so what do you do then, 1000's of migrants, that need to be housed, the more extreme xenophobes would take us down a very dark path, especially if whipped up to such an extent, that they don't view these people as being worth looking after, or protected from extreme violence.
I would like to think we'd still see some sort of plan to manage that, perhaps a double or single lock. Equally this is the Reform thread, so well thought through nuanced changes are not necessarily a given.
Robin Edwards
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And here is a perfect example of why so many people will have issues with far-right parties such as Reform / Restore and their voters. When asked politely to explain further the things they say, they throw their arms in the air and show that they want to be beyond scrutiny. Not unlike MAGA supporters in the US. You can't go around playing the victim and blaming everything on those more left of yourself if you're unwilling to "come out" with the real reasons why you might want to support parties with policies deep-rooted in racism and hate-spreading.
Killingworth
Established Member
The 'establishment' is being played here and needs to act accordingly.
Farage wants another election, it plays to his ego and he thrives on such drama.
He's admitted the offence - come on, find me guilty. Trigger a recall petition.
More drama. Will there be a 10% sign up? If there isn't he wins?
If there has to be another by-election Labour, LibDem, Green and Conservative will have to decide if they all stand aside again or agree to back one of the others - who'd be a sacrificial lamb in the Clacton Reform cauldron?
So step forward Binface. Remove the bin. Get serious.
No, the establishment has to engineer this to avoid another Faragist circus act.
There are serious issues underlying all this that do need attention. Net migration is a big issue - and it's more than boats. So is the benefits jungle. I dont know Clacton but it seems the proportion not actively in paid employment is as high as anywhere. Health, defence education, transport all need critical focus. Whether reforming or restoring there's plenty needing effective action. Can Burnham and Badenoch rise to that challenge? Or Davey and Polanski from the sidelines?
Farage wants another election, it plays to his ego and he thrives on such drama.
He's admitted the offence - come on, find me guilty. Trigger a recall petition.
More drama. Will there be a 10% sign up? If there isn't he wins?
If there has to be another by-election Labour, LibDem, Green and Conservative will have to decide if they all stand aside again or agree to back one of the others - who'd be a sacrificial lamb in the Clacton Reform cauldron?
So step forward Binface. Remove the bin. Get serious.
No, the establishment has to engineer this to avoid another Faragist circus act.
There are serious issues underlying all this that do need attention. Net migration is a big issue - and it's more than boats. So is the benefits jungle. I dont know Clacton but it seems the proportion not actively in paid employment is as high as anywhere. Health, defence education, transport all need critical focus. Whether reforming or restoring there's plenty needing effective action. Can Burnham and Badenoch rise to that challenge? Or Davey and Polanski from the sidelines?
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SuspectUsual
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I feel grubby just typing this, but this is one thing that actually can't be blamed on Farage. It's 100% on those who negotiated the EU exit deal (Johnson et al). I'm sure the EU (and the French especially) couldn't believe their luck when we signed up to a deal that removed out ability to send small boat arrivals back to France
It is absolutely criminal that this was allowed to happen
All that's needed is a single lock to CPI, so the buying power of pensions are protected.
martin butler
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You have to look at who was pulling the strings, the ERG, and where are many of them now, the ones that did not retire at the last general election, that is, they were Conservative, in name only, if anything they were closer to Reform's world view, than fellow members of their own party.
We hold all the cards / German car makers / cakeism - the people doing the negotiations believed their own messaging too much to actually admit that a negotiation needs to be a two way thing.
Razorblades
Member
Sorry, I don't follow....
There was a lot of very complacent commentary from pro-Brexit campaigners after 2016, boasting of the cards that would allegedly ensure that the U.K. would get a wonderful deal with no downsides.
Very succinctly, those in change of working out what our future relationship with the EU, believed so much in "they need us more than we need them" that they didn't realise there could be negative consequences to the UK.
Razorblades
Member
... and 'cakeism' ?
SuspectUsual
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Have your cake and eat it.
In this context, keep the benefits of EU membership despite leaving
Razorblades
Member
Wow, schoolism!
martin butler
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I think we are now seeing the truth about Farage's intentions, he really does not like Clacton, or the people, he only wants their vote, to keep his gravy train rolling, only because of the contacts of being an MP brings
he never was a man of the people, try going into one of his clubs, you wouldn't get in,
Yet, the people of Clacton, seemingly ignore what's before their eyes. and most likely would return him to parliament every time, unless someone well known and respected by the rest of the town, were to stand, someone that appeals to the majority of people in Clacton, who did not vote to be taken for fools.
he never was a man of the people, try going into one of his clubs, you wouldn't get in,
Yet, the people of Clacton, seemingly ignore what's before their eyes. and most likely would return him to parliament every time, unless someone well known and respected by the rest of the town, were to stand, someone that appeals to the majority of people in Clacton, who did not vote to be taken for fools.
It was clear to everyone outside Clacton that he would leave the second he got what he wanted. Mind you, I didn't expect him to flee before the result.
He's so insecure that I can't imagine the nightmare he'd be as PM. He would be a literal copy of Trump and do untold harm to the country just as Trump has.
Can you imagine how relationship with the EU? The EU still works closely with us and have been exceptionally tolerant, but he'd do everything to undermine our relationship post-Brexit and almost certainly snuggle up to the USA (the opposite of what most of the world is now doing) and sell out all of our homegrown businesses.
He's so insecure that I can't imagine the nightmare he'd be as PM. He would be a literal copy of Trump and do untold harm to the country just as Trump has.
Can you imagine how relationship with the EU? The EU still works closely with us and have been exceptionally tolerant, but he'd do everything to undermine our relationship post-Brexit and almost certainly snuggle up to the USA (the opposite of what most of the world is now doing) and sell out all of our homegrown businesses.
IMHO he’d be like a cross between Trump and Truss. In terms of how well it would turn put for us that is, not hair bouffant-ness.