Reduction in minimum age for train drivers.

[Ducatist4]

Heard on the news this morning that the minimum age for train drivers is to be reduced from 20 to 18 in order to recruit more drivers and reduce cancellations and reliance on rest day working by some TOC's.

Train driver minimum age to be lowered to 18

The move is aimed at combatting driver shortages which cause the majority of disruption to rail services.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eighteen-year-olds will be allowed to drive trains after the minimum age was lowered from 20 in a bid to tackle driver shortages.

UK rail services are frequently disrupted due to a lack of drivers being available, and the problem is set to get worse with companies struggling to replace a growing number of people retiring with new recruits, the government said...

 

[John Luxton]

Heard on the news this morning that the minimum age for train drivers is to be reduced from 20 to 18 in order to recruit more drivers and reduce cancelations and reliance on rest day working by some TOC's.

It makes sense.

Just taken a look at the training age for prospective RAF and commercial pilots is 18.

If it is considered appropriate for young people to learn to fly the 20 year minimum age appears to be a bit of an anomaly.

 

[DarloRich]

is there also an age demographic issue with the pool of train drivers?

 

[Ducatist4]

Re the armed forces - its been the case for years the soldiers can get their HGV licence at 17 when its 18 for civvies. Why there is that variance i don't know!

 

[43066]

Heard on the news this morning that the minimum age for train drivers is to be reduced from 20 to 18 in order to recruit more drivers and reduce cancelations and reliance on rest day working by some TOC's.

Or at least that’s the spin . I’m not convinced really has anything to do with reducing RDW because they’re inundated with applicants anyway - however TOCs (and BR before them) find it cheaper to employer fewer drivers and rely on rest day work. The decision to change that could be made of course, but wouldn’t really have much to do with the age of the applicants.

Being cynical, I wonder if the DfT hope that younger applicants will be less likely to join ASLEF etc. It’s hard to see it making that much difference to the current recruitment practices as the majority of people recruited into the driving grade tend to be well above the minimum age of 21 anyway.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Is there actually a shortage of people applying to be train drivers? I have no inside knowledge, but the impression I've had in the past from railforums is that lots of people want to become train drivers, but the TOCs have been unable or unwilling to devote the resources to training enough people. If that's the case, then opening applications to more people is likely to have zero impact on driver shortages.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Heard on the news this morning that the minimum age for train drivers is to be reduced from 20 to 18 in order to recruit more drivers and reduce cancelations and reliance on rest day working by some TOC's.

I highly doubt this will have any effort at all on the above.

 

[spyinthesky]

Is there actually a shortage of people applying to be train drivers? I have no inside knowledge, but the impression I've had in the past from railforums is that lots of people want to become train drivers, but the TOCs have been unable or unwilling to devote the resources to training enough people. If that's the case, then opening applications to more people is likely to have zero impact on driver shortages.

I have no inside knowledge either but can imagine getting young people trained for a full career is cheaper than training someone middle aged for 10-15 years service.

 

[DMckduck]

As said before on here, until the MMI is either removed from the process or altered in some way, lowering the age to 18 will make a marginal difference.

An interview solely based on personal life experience is always going to be biased against a younger person.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2025 ==

Is there actually a shortage of people applying to be train drivers? I have no inside knowledge, but the impression I've had in the past from railforums is that lots of people want to become train drivers, but the TOCs have been unable or unwilling to devote the resources to training enough people. If that's the case, then opening applications to more people is likely to have zero impact on driver shortages.

The bottlenecks in training and availability of instructors is the real issue.

 

[bleeder4]

is there also an age demographic issue with the pool of train drivers?

The BBC article says that the average age of a train driver is 48, and 30% of train drivers will be reaching retirement age within 4 years.

 

[The exile]

As said before on here, until the MMI is either removed from the process or altered in some way, lowering the age to 18 will make a marginal difference.

Surely the big advantage is that it opens the field to people before they establish themselves elsewhere.

 

[43066]

Surely the big advantage is that it opens the field to people before they establish themselves elsewhere.

Not necessarily, as many people will need to gain experience elsewhere before they can demonstrate the necessary skills. This also doesn’t seem to be an issue in terms of attracting applicants at the moment.

 

[Ducatist4]

The MMI questions are more geared towards life skills which younger people just wont have yet. Even quite a few older people don't have them!:

1. Describe a time when you followed rules and procedures
2. Describe a time when you have solved a difficult problem
3. Describe a time when you have been on a training course over 2weeks or greatest achievement
4. Describe a time when you have handled an emergency situation
5. Describe a time when you have worked for long periods of time alone
6. Describe a role you do similar to a train driver?

 

[whoosh]

Not heard of very many 18 year olds driving tube trains (where the minimum age is already 18). The odd one or two.

Seems like one of those industry/government/union "collaborations" where the industry can say they are 'doing something' about recruitment, the government can continue with it's "just pushing button - even an 18 year old can do it. Oh and look how much they'll earn - jobs for young people," and the union can say how they aren't just there for legacy BR dinosaurs, but engaging with young people.

I can't see vast swathes of 18 to 20 year olds replacing other age groups in actually making it into training schools.

 

[AlterEgo]

The MMI questions are more geared towards life skills which younger people just wont have yet. Even quite a few older people don't have them!:

1. Describe a time when you followed rules and procedures
2. Describe a time when you have solved a difficult problem
3. Describe a time when you have been on a training course over 2weeks or greatest achievement
4. Describe a time when you have handled an emergency situation
5. Describe a time when you have worked for long periods of time alone
6. Describe a role you do similar to a train driver?

Some of these questions you wouldn't even get asked at officer selection for the RAF when you're 18. At least one of those questions is arguably biased on the grounds of sex and I'm surprised they ask no. 6 given the industry knows that roles like train drivers are not occupied by women traditionally and even does a lot of comms around it.

 

[Egg Centric]

The MMI questions are more geared towards life skills which younger people just wont have yet. Even quite a few older people don't have them!:

1. Describe a time when you followed rules and procedures
2. Describe a time when you have solved a difficult problem
3. Describe a time when you have been on a training course over 2weeks or greatest achievement
4. Describe a time when you have handled an emergency situation
5. Describe a time when you have worked for long periods of time alone
6. Describe a role you do similar to a train driver?

Hate these behavioural interview questions. If they're released in advance, then they just reward the academic. If (more likely in general, I don't know about specifics of MMI) they're used on the spot then for those of us whose memory isn't indexed that way they're impossible to answer without racking through everything that ever happened in our life until finding one that vaguely answers the question.

 

[Snow1964]

Not heard of very many 18 year olds driving tube trains (where the minimum age is already 18). The odd one or two.

Seems like one of those industry/government/union "collaborations" where the industry can say they are 'doing something' about recruitment, the government can continue with it's "just pushing button - even an 18 year old can do it. Oh and look how much they'll earn - jobs for young people," and the union can say how they aren't just there for legacy BR dinosaurs, but engaging with young people.

I can't see vast swathes of 18 to 20 year olds replacing other age groups in actually making it into training schools.

My nephew opted to be an airline pilot, did A levels, went to flight school, started work as a pilot First Officer for EasyJet when he was 19 (which was about 8 years ago).

Bit of a silly anomaly that you can fly a plane with passengers at 19 in UK, but couldn't drive a train. Perhaps bigger question is why rail has been different for at least a decade.

 

[ainsworth74]

Some of these questions you wouldn't even get asked at officer selection for the RAF when you're 18. At least one of those questions is arguably biased on the grounds of sex and I'm surprised they ask no. 6 given the industry knows that roles like train drivers are not occupied by women traditionally and even does a lot of comms around it.

Yes I was just thinking the MMI if that's how it's structured might actually be a case of indirect discrimination in Equality Act terms. Though I suppose it would be argued that it's justified discrimination on the basis of a legitimate need of the role and it being proportionate and necessary? Interesting though.

 

[miami]

1. Describe a time when you followed rules and procedures

School has rules and procedures

2. Describe a time when you have solved a difficult problem

School has difficult problems to solve

3. Describe a time when you have been on a training course over 2weeks or greatest achievement

School is a training course over a decade, plenty of opportunities for achievements too, both academic and extra curricular

4. Describe a time when you have handled an emergency situation

School has many of these (how you define an emergency is subject for debate of course, but presumably anything where you can convey you were calm and followed plans would do)

5. Describe a time when you have worked for long periods of time alone

School has opportunities for that (revision especially)

6. Describe a role you do similar to a train driver?

Depending what they want from this. How does an unemployed person answer this?

 

[DMckduck]

1. Describe a time when you followed rules and procedures

School has rules and procedures

2. Describe a time when you have solved a difficult problem

School has difficult problems to solve

3. Describe a time when you have been on a training course over 2weeks or greatest achievement

School is a training course over a decade, plenty of opportunities for achievements too, both academic and extra curricular

4. Describe a time when you have handled an emergency situation

School has many of these (how you define an emergency is subject for debate of course, but presumably anything where you can convey you were calm and followed plans would do)

5. Describe a time when you have worked for long periods of time alone

School has opportunities for that (revision especially)

6. Describe a role you do similar to a train driver?

Depending what they want from this. How does an unemployed person answer this?

Also bear in mind they are looking for a bit of variation, so 6 examples from the same place probably wouldn't go down well.

I don't see how question 6 can be answered by an 18 year old in my opinion, the only closest thing they could have done would be drive a car and there is currently a massive backlog of driving tests so even that would be questionable.

 

[duffield]

Re the armed forces - its been the case for years the soldiers can get their HGV licence at 17 when its 18 for civvies. Why there is that variance i don't know!

I'd guess the argument is that the training is more rigorous for soldiers and they are subject to more supervision?

Is there actually a shortage of people applying to be train drivers? I have no inside knowledge, but the impression I've had in the past from railforums is that lots of people want to become train drivers, but the TOCs have been unable or unwilling to devote the resources to training enough people. If that's the case, then opening applications to more people is likely to have zero impact on driver shortages.

I thought the problem wasn't the total number of applicants, it was the number of suitable applicants who can actually pass selection.

 

[43066]

Some of these questions you wouldn't even get asked at officer selection for the RAF when you're 18. At least one of those questions is arguably biased on the grounds of sex and I'm surprised they ask no. 6 given the industry knows that roles like train drivers are not occupied by women traditionally and even does a lot of comms around it.

You could answer that by (for example) giving an example doing a long drive in a car, navigating, following the Highway Code etc. I don’t think it necessarily means job role, as such.

Yes I was just thinking the MMI if that's how it's structured might actually be a case of indirect discrimination in Equality Act terms. Though I suppose it would be argued that it's justified discrimination on the basis of a legitimate need of the role and it being proportionate and necessary? Interesting though.

Lots of it can be answered using answers from hobbies (eg I have a PPL and drew heavily from that). Ultimately you do need to have some life experience to get through which may be harder for those who haven’t worked or done anything other than than study - that’s not to say no 18yos would be able to.

 

[AlterEgo]

1. Describe a time when you followed rules and procedures

School has rules and procedures

2. Describe a time when you have solved a difficult problem

School has difficult problems to solve

3. Describe a time when you have been on a training course over 2weeks or greatest achievement

School is a training course over a decade, plenty of opportunities for achievements too, both academic and extra curricular

4. Describe a time when you have handled an emergency situation

School has many of these (how you define an emergency is subject for debate of course, but presumably anything where you can convey you were calm and followed plans would do)

5. Describe a time when you have worked for long periods of time alone

School has opportunities for that (revision especially)

6. Describe a role you do similar to a train driver?

Depending what they want from this. How does an unemployed person answer this?

What a truly insane way to select people to drive trains, all of the questions except the last one are "did you go to school then".

 

[whoosh]

My nephew opted to be an airline pilot, did A levels, went to flight school, started work as a pilot First Officer for EasyJet when he was 19 (which was about 8 years ago).

Bit of a silly anomaly that you can fly a plane with passengers at 19 in UK, but couldn't drive a train. Perhaps bigger question is why rail has been different for at least a decade.

I agree it is an anomaly, however whilst a First Officer can fly a plane, there is still a 'Commander' in charge - the Captain, and it is extremely unlikely that they will be under 21. So there is a difference there.

You can drive a bus at 18, but there are limits as to how long the route is. This seems a bit daft, as if someone is deemed responsible enough to drive 10 miles, then why not 50 miles?

This does tidy up some anomalies, but I can't see it making much difference. Not anywhere near as much difference as the parties I mentioned will claim.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2025 ==

What a truly insane way to select people to drive trains, all of the questions except the last one are "did you go to school then".

The more answers you give outside of "school" the better you'd do, I'd wager. Unless you can give specific examples.

 

[DarloRich]

The MMI questions are more geared towards life skills which younger people just wont have yet.

Hate these behavioural interview questions. If they're released in advance, then they just reward the academic. If (more likely in general, I don't know about specifics of MMI) they're used on the spot then for those of us whose memory isn't indexed that way they're impossible to answer without racking through everything that ever happened in our life until finding one that vaguely answers the question.

It isn't about the answer - it is about how you present the answer. These are standard questions you will be asked for any professional job. The key is to have answers for a number of common topics and then tailor them to the question.

Once you figure that out the interview becomes a lot less daunting.

 

[DMckduck]

It isn't about the answer - it is about how you present the answer. These are standard questions you will be asked for any professional job. The key is to have answers for a number of common topics and then tailor them to the question.

Once you figure that out the interview becomes a lot less daunting.

Yeah but you are also ignoring the topic, and the fact is 18 year olds will be highly unlikely to have answers for multiple common topics that can also then further be tailored into those 6 questions.

I'd bet many would struggle to answer half of those questions without repeating scenarios or simply lying.

 

[DarloRich]

Yeah but you are also ignoring the topic, and the fact is 18 year olds will be highly unlikely to have answers for multiple common topics that can also then further be tailored into those 6 questions.

Why not? I think I could have done at 18. They will have different answers to someone who is 40 but that doesn't make them wrong. For me the issue would be the quality of the presentation and the maturity of the candidate rather than the answers.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah but you are also ignoring the topic, and the fact is 18 year olds will be highly unlikely to have answers for multiple common topics that can also then further be tailored into those 6 questions.

I'd bet many would struggle to answer half of those questions without repeating scenarios or simply lying.

I could not have passed the MMI at 18; 20 years later I could have but I doubt I'd be a better candidate today than then!

 

[DarloRich]

I could not have passed the MMI at 18; 20 years later I could have but I doubt I'd be a better candidate today than then!

hang on - I am not saying I could have passed. I am simply saying I could have offered answers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2025 ==

What a truly insane way to select people to drive trains, all of the questions except the last one are "did you go to school then".

it is about how you tell your story not what the story is.

 

[ainsworth74]

Lots of it can be answered using answers from hobbies (eg I have a PPL and drew heavily from that). Ultimately you do need to have some life experience to get through which may be harder for those who haven’t worked or done anything other than than study - that’s not to say no 18yos would be able to.

Yes absolutely, you could have an 18 year old who has been volunteering with say St Johns Ambulance as a cadet which would give them some ability to answer those questions. It's certainly not bolted on discrimination (and even if it is, it might well be justifiable) but I do think it's interesting to think about those questions and a) how practical it is for some people to answer them, b) whether that actually is discriminatory (I'm not sure either way) and c) are those actually that helpful in working out who might be a good driver or not?