Reducing DMUs on Barrow and Windermere services?

[AlastairFraser]

It would, but Northern are perennially short of DMUs. The planned BEMUs would solve the issue, but those are realistically well over 5 years off by the time they are ordered, built and in service.

And overcrowding is a serious issue on these services south of Preston.

EMUs aren't exactly plentiful either. Even now a 150 or 156 occasionally shows up on an EMU diagram (usually the peak time only Wigan North Western - Manchester via Eccles).

Extra EMUs are quite easy to obtain at the moment, and switching a DMU out from a mainline Northern route where performance is a serious concern will help one of Northern's major issues.

There's nine off-lease 323s too, which would be an even simpler fix without needing maintenance staff or crew training.

Exactly, although the 350/2s are 110mph capable, which would help on the Preston - Lancaster WCML section (possibly balanced by acceleration improvements significantly shortening timings Chorley - Preston and Bolton - Chorley).

Alternatively the EMU could be a Manchester-Carlisle service (for DMU connections to both Barrow and Windermere) which could allow the TPE Scotland service to be sped up? No idea if that could be pathed, though.

If you could path that with looping at certain points, it would be a great addition to the WCML and enable Avanti to release a bit of capacity on the WCML intercity services (if Northern used Advances to entice most local/regional customers, like they usually do).
Then keep one DMU on the Windermere branch and a few on the Cumbrian coast. I think Barrow would moan about the loss of the through train, so you'd need good connections at Lancaster, but you could sell it as a temporary break while Northern waits for their battery train delivery.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Extra EMUs are quite easy to obtain at the moment, and switching a DMU out from a mainline Northern route where performance is a serious concern will help one of Northern's major issues.

The only way I can think to do that quickly would be the stored 323s, any new trains would take years while staff are trained, the extra 323 rollout took long enough and half the depots already knew them

 

[AlastairFraser]

The only way I can think to do that quickly would be the stored 323s, any new trains would take years while staff are trained, the extra 323 rollout took long enough and half the depots already knew them

If that's the only available option, it would work well.

 

[Dspatula]

A lot the work is done by barrow depot and I don't think they sign any EMUs.

 

[amahy]

The only way I can think to do that quickly would be the stored 323s, any new trains would take years while staff are trained, the extra 323 rollout took long enough and half the depots already knew them

That seems like a slight exaggeration. Chiltern’s Mk5As are taking less than a year, and while the locos (class 68s) are the same, the coaches are totally different. A new EMU fleet shouldn’t take much more than a year and a half.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That seems like a slight exaggeration. Chiltern’s Mk5As are taking less than a year, and while the locos (class 68s) are the same, the coaches are totally different. A new EMU fleet shouldn’t take much more than a year and a half.

It would certainly be feasible to get the 350/2s in in far less time than the new-build EMUs proposed (plus indeed the other 323s if needs be, as those would otherwise be scrapped). I'd say those are between 5 and 10 years off, practically - they aren't even ordered yet. And with the 150s etc rotting away nicely and likely to need further reductions in diagramming even if it's possible to bring in the TfW 158s to help a bit, this seems to be a way to ensure that we don't end up with everything on the DMU routes that isn't 195 worked 2 car within the not too distant future. Personally I'd rather a change than standing for the whole journey.

 

[cle]

And overcrowding is a serious issue on these services south of Preston.

Extra EMUs are quite easy to obtain at the moment, and switching a DMU out from a mainline Northern route where performance is a serious concern will help one of Northern's major issues.

Exactly, although the 350/2s are 110mph capable, which would help on the Preston - Lancaster WCML section (possibly balanced by acceleration improvements significantly shortening timings Chorley - Preston and Bolton - Chorley).

If you could path that with looping at certain points, it would be a great addition to the WCML and enable Avanti to release a bit of capacity on the WCML intercity services (if Northern used Advances to entice most local/regional customers, like they usually do).
Then keep one DMU on the Windermere branch and a few on the Cumbrian coast. I think Barrow would moan about the loss of the through train, so you'd need good connections at Lancaster, but you could sell it as a temporary break while Northern waits for their battery train delivery.

This is why I think an hourly Cumbria out of Liverpool might be an easier solve than pathing a new Manchester service, or making lots more shuttles and changes.

Instead of the Liverpool-Glasgow, in that path - do hourly Liverpool-Barrow (diesel), Windermere (batt) or Liverpool-Carlisle (350) even (with the latter acting as the local connector) and maintain other direct services, and speed others up.

Or do two-hourly and some of the Carlisles could still operate a limited Glasgow service, if that would be unpopular. But I would think another Preston fast, a regular Lancaster and more direct service to the Lakes would be more valued by Merseyside, tbh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then keep one DMU on the Windermere branch and a few on the Cumbrian coast. I think Barrow would moan about the loss of the through train, so you'd need good connections at Lancaster, but you could sell it as a temporary break while Northern waits for their battery train delivery.

One thing you could sell quite effectively would be an hourly clockface Lancaster-Carlisle (once the tunnel is fixed) with no services requiring a change at Barrow.

Windermere would be harder, but that's only 3 through services per day anyway. A lot of the passengers are changing to/from London trains rather than Manchester ones. Though if you did have it as a shuttle it could probably be timed to connect better with the Londons.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2025 ==

This is why I think an hourly Cumbria out of Liverpool might be an easier solve than pathing a new Manchester service, or making lots more shuttles and changes.

It's not a new Manchester service, it's the existing one switched to an EMU. That's the whole point - removing DMUs under the wires so they can run on routes not under the wires and increase capacity.

Removing that would cause Manchester-Preston overcrowding unless you could magic up more units for TPE. They show "sold out" more often than not.

 

[cle]

It's not a new Manchester service, it's the existing one switched to an EMU. That's the whole point - removing DMUs under the wires so they can run on routes not under the wires and increase capacity.

Removing that would cause Manchester-Preston overcrowding unless you could magic up more units for TPE. They show "sold out" more often than not.

Agree, i had the impression it was an additional (to Windermere staying)

I agree that Manchester-Preston should likely be 8 car 350/2 or similar, or at least have some PIXC buster shuttles in place.

 

[deltic08]

One thing you could sell quite effectively would be an hourly clockface Lancaster-Carlisle (once the tunnel is fixed) with no services requiring a change at Barrow.

Windermere would be harder, but that's only 3 through services per day anyway. A lot of the passengers are changing to/from London trains rather than Manchester ones. Though if you did have it as a shuttle it could probably be timed to connect better with the Londons.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2025 ==



It's not a new Manchester service, it's the existing one switched to an EMU. That's the whole point - removing DMUs under the wires so they can run on routes not under the wires and increase capacity.

Removing that would cause Manchester-Preston overcrowding unless you could magic up more units for TPE. They show "sold out" more often than not.

I have calculated that Northern have used 816,000 gallons or over 4 billion litres of diesel fuel on the Manchester-Windermere service alone since Failing Grahling cancelled electrification from Oxenholme to Windermere. That is the capacity of Grasmere. Diesel has been marginally more than electric over the last 8 years, electrifying the branch would have cost less + the cost of electric than the cost of diesel. Was it a wise decision with hindsight as bimodes/BEMUs have still not materialised and probably will not for another 5 years or another 500,000 gallons of diesel?

 

[daodao]

I have calculated that Northern have used 816,000 gallons or over 4 billion litres of diesel fuel on the Manchester-Windermere service alone since Failing Grahling cancelled electrification from Oxenholme to Windermere. That is the capacity of Grasmere. Diesel has been marginally more than electric over the last 8 years, electrifying the branch would have cost less + the cost of electric than the cost of diesel. Was it a wise decision with hindsight as bimodes/BEMUs have still not materialised and probably will not for another 5 years or another 500,000 gallons of diesel?

The responsibility for running diesel trains under the wires is primarily that of the relevant TOCs. In the case of the Windermere to Oxenholme service, this could easily have been avoided (and can be in future) by running it as a standalone dmu shuttle, connecting with existing Anglo-Scotch trains at Oxenholme. Extra electric trains could be run from Manchester Victoria to Preston/Lancaster to provide more capacity at busy times, if required.

 

[Paul AC]

The responsibility for running diesel trains under the wires is primarily that of the relevant TOCs. In the case of the Windermere to Oxenholme service, this could easily have been avoided (and can be in future) by running it as a standalone dmu shuttle, connecting with existing Anglo-Scotch trains at Oxenholme. Extra electric trains could be run from Manchester Victoria to Preston/Lancaster to provide more capacity at busy times, if required.

The responsibility for running diesel trains to Windermere is 100% due to the DfT and the relevant ministers. It would have been avoided by wiring the short link from Oxenholme to Windermere.

 

[daodao]

The responsibility for running diesel trains to Windermere is 100% due to the DfT and the relevant ministers. It would have been avoided by wiring the short link from Oxenholme to Windermere.

The DfT is only responsible for diesel trains running from Windermere to Oxenholme, not for running diesel trains under the wires from Oxenholme to Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The DfT is only responsible for diesel trains running from Windermere to Oxenholme, not for running diesel trains under the wires from Oxenholme to Manchester.

There are to be fair only three round trips, two of which are needed to get the unit on and off from Newton Heath. The Barrow through services are more the issue and would be easier to deal with as a Lancaster split as that station has terminating platforms.

 

[deltic08]

There are to be fair only three round trips, two of which are needed to get the unit on and off from Newton Heath. The Barrow through services are more the issue and would be easier to deal with as a Lancaster split as that station has terminating platforms.

According to my timetable, there are four round trips each weekday. That is what I based my calculations on. As soon as I posted I realised 800,000 gallons is 4 million litres not billion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to my timetable, there are four round trips each weekday. That is what I based my calculations on. As soon as I posted I realised 800,000 gallons is 4 million litres not billion.

Ah OK, so two could be removed and two would have to stay (as the unit needs to get to the branch and back to Newton Heath each day).

Barrow wouldn't need that as the units can live there.