Redhill commute

[Matt26]

Hi all

We're looking to move to Redhill and are worried about commuting costs into Victoria or London Bridge.

I'm 31, so no 26-30 Railcard, my partner is 28 so has a 26-30 Railcard. Without any Railcards applied, before 9am, it's £25 return, £15 thereafter.

1. Trainline says an open return with Railcard is £12 after 9am, so if my partner uses her Oyster to do this rather than booking an open return on app / online I presume the £12 min fee applies and an Oyster Redhill-London single becomes the full price fee of £16.95 single (which is the pre 9am price) and then the return later hits the £24 day cap as is charged at two singles. Is this right and should we just book via app every day for an open return for £12 (saving half)

We'd probably aim for 9.10 into Victoria.

2. If we got the two-together or Network discount card it is £15 for an open return - presuming we went in on the same days then I understand this card and Network Card (unlike the 26-30) cannot be applied to oyster and thus for every day commute we'd have to manually buy tickets rather than use Oyster - unless we wanted to pay £24 each return. - is this correct?

3. If the above two are correct, is my partner best using her Oyster for local off peak trips but for trips into central or back to family in Bexley booking online allowing application of Railcard?

Help really appreciated as £24 for a 38 mins journey has shocked us. Family doing a longer trip of London Bridge to Bexley pay tops £14, so £24 return feels very high and we're caught a bit by oyster being usable but seemingly costing us?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[jfollows]

Two together not valid until 09:30, deliberately to prevent it being used for commuting ….

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are tickets with a Network Card discount valid before 10am Monday to Friday? I didn't think they were.

 

[jfollows]

Are tickets with a Network Card discount valid before 10am Monday to Friday? I didn't think they were.

Other than a few “easements”, no, they’re not. See https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/about-the-railcard/using-your-railcard/ and its links, for example.

 

[Matt26]

Ah, in that case, say we could go in on a Friday later at 9.40 train...how would that work re my quandary above?

 

[jfollows]

Ah, in that case, say we could go in on a Friday later at 9.40 train...how would that work re my quandary above?

If you mean by using the Two Together railcard, then remember that your tickets are only valid if travelling together, so if - for example - you want to come home separately you have to buy new tickets.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Other than a few “easements”, no, they’re not. See https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/about-the-railcard/using-your-railcard/ and its links, for example.

I see the Javlins have made it to the Sussex Coast:
St Leonards Warrior
Square
09:53 Southeastern service to London St
Pancras

 

[Matt26]

Yep, understand the risk there. I'm just checking though - the prices on Trainline are £12 for an open return (post 9am) where the inbound wouldn't have applicable Railcard, but the homeward bound would.

If my partner went into London 9.10 via Oyster or contactless (no Railcard applicable) and then back 17.30 ISH with Railcard. I understand that doing it that way would be more expensive than an open return on Trainline - this seems nonsensical to me but is what I've found...am I missing something?

 

[JonathanH]

If you can leave Redhill for London before 0630, the Oyster / Contactless single fare is £7.70, as it is after 0930. This is £5.05 on Oyster with a 26-30 Railcard. The peak single fare is £13.30.

Oyster / Contactless don't become off-peak until 0930 from Redhill. However, from Redhill to London, 'paper' off-peak tickets are off-peak from the 0910 departure, which is why the railcard discounted off-peak fare is £12 after 9am.

The evidence from other places where Contactless has been extended most recently is that off-peak restrictions are likely to be aligned at 0930 in the relatively near future in the Contactless area.

The price to travel from Redhill to London reflects historic demand and the longer distance, not just journey time.

 

[Gloster]

How many days a week are you going to be travelling in to London? Both individually or on the same days. (Or am I missing something?)

 

[JonathanH]

1. Trainline says an open return with Railcard is £12 after 9am, so if my partner uses her Oyster to do this rather than booking an open return on app / online I presume the £12 min fee applies and an Oyster Redhill-London single becomes the full price fee of £16.95 single (which is the pre 9am price) and then the return later hits the £24 day cap as is charged at two singles.

There is no £24 day cap from Redhill. The only capping on Oyster or Contactless from Redhill is an All Day Cap of £38.20 and an Off-peak Cap of £25.60. The latter is substantially more than a 'paper' off-peak day travelcard.

One key point about travelling from Redhill to London is that the 'paper' and Oyster / Contactless fares are not aligned. It is currently never advantageous to use Oyster or Contactless for travel from Redhill to London after 0900 unless only making a single journey.

 

[Matt26]

We have to go in 3 days a week each. So potentially some overlapping days but definitely very likely in on different days and times. We would potentially have travel together for longer distance trips regardless.

Thanks Jonathan - if that alignment came into effect and we had to be in the office before 10 (and thus take the 9.10 to Victoria) the 9.10am single would be £13.60 and how much would a return be? I'm hoping not £27.20.

Thanks all

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off Peak Day Returns from Redhill to London Terminals are £15.20 aren't they, provided the train you're on doesn't get into London before 0945 (M-F), so that would allow travel on the 0910 Southern departure to London Victoria (arrive 0949) or the 0918 Thameslink departure to London Bridge (arrive 0950). Or am I missing something?

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks Jonathan - if that alignment came into effect and we had to be in the office before 10 (and thus take the 9.10 to Victoria) the 9.10am single would be £13.60 and how much would a return be? I'm hoping not £27.20.

It hasn't happened yet, and it isn't clear when Phase 2 of Project Oval will take effect, but if there was an alignment made between the current Contactless fares and the paper structure, then the peak fare would be £13.30 each way, which is £26.60 return when travelling up to 0930 and back between 1600 and 1900.

Note that at present, the peak return 'paper' fare to 'London Thameslink' is £25.70, and to London Terminals is £27.00.

Off Peak Day Returns from Redhill to London Terminals are £15.20 aren't they, provided the train you're on doesn't get into London before 0945 (M-F), so that would allow travel on the 0910 Southern departure to London Victoria (arrive 0949) or the 0918 Thameslink departure to London Bridge (arrive 0950). Or am I missing something?

Yes, that is the current situation. However, off-peak fares on Oyster / Contactless don't apply until 0930 which leads to some anomalies.

If the original poster is making decisions based on current fares before deciding to move, it is worth considering what could be the effect of Project Oval in the near future.

 

[Matt26]

Off Peak Day Returns from Redhill to London Terminals are £15.20 aren't they, provided the train you're on doesn't get into London before 0945 (M-F), so that would allow travel on the 0910 Southern departure to London Victoria (arrive 0949) or the 0918 Thameslink departure to London Bridge (arrive 0950). Or am I missing something?

So essentially - £15.20 off peak return if bought as paper ticket / app. If we instead used contactless or Oyster for the 9.10 it would charge £13.60 in bound, then £7.70 / £5.05 (with RC) back home - making buying an off peak return paper ticket better. My concern though is - what would the return fare become if the 9.10 was no longer off peak for paper / app tickets?

It hasn't happened yet, and it isn't clear when Phase 2 of Project Oval will take effect, but if there was an alignment made between the current Contactless fares and the paper structure, then the peak fare would be £13.30 each way, which is £26.60 return when travelling up to 0930 and back between 1600 and 1900.

Note that at present, the peak return 'paper' fare to 'London Thameslink' is £25.70, and to London Terminals is £27.00.


Yes, that is the current situation. However, off-peak fares on Oyster / Contactless don't apply until 0930 which leads to some anomalies.

Thanks - that is what I feared and would be too much. How on earth does anyone move out from London, find enough to buy a house then commute in on £26 a day. Just madness :/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2024 ==

It hasn't happened yet, and it isn't clear when Phase 2 of Project Oval will take effect, but if there was an alignment made between the current Contactless fares and the paper structure, then the peak fare would be £13.30 each way, which is £26.60 return when travelling up to 0930 and back between 1600 and 1900.

Note that at present, the peak return 'paper' fare to 'London Thameslink' is £25.70, and to London Terminals is £27.00.


Yes, that is the current situation. However, off-peak fares on Oyster / Contactless don't apply until 0930 which leads to some anomalies.

If the original poster is making decisions based on current fares before deciding to move, it is worth considering what could be the effect of Project Oval in the near future.

Thanks, I'd not heard of project oval - is there any useful reading I could do on this and it's potential implementation

 

[Hadders]

If you’re too old for a 26-30 railcard, discount on off peak fares using Oyster can be obtained if you have an annual season ticket which qualifies as a Gold Card.

The cheapest such season ticket is currently Hatton to Lapworth costing £204 per annum.

You’d need to factor in the cost of this, and whether you could start your journeys at off peak times (ie before 06:30 or after 09:30 heading into London) and before 16:00 or after 19:00 on the return journey.


If travelling home in the evening peak then a Gold Card discounted traditional ticket might be cheaper than a Peak Time Oyster fare.

I’m out and about at the moment so can’t easily check.

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks, I'd not heard of project oval - is there any useful reading I could do on this and it's potential implementation

There is more here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-coming-to-contactless-payment-cards.231684/

Project Oval, simply put, is the extension of Contactless PAYG to a much greater area around London. It should have been implemented by now, but is running late.

The stations in Phase 1 go live later this month. They saw their 'paper' fares revised to be priced on the basis of single leg pricing last December, which largely aligned those fares with the proposed Contactless PAYG fares.

Previous extensions of Contactless had been made without changing the fare structure, and hence the anomalies which exist from two structures coexisting from places like Redhill.

 

[Matt26]

If you’re too old for a 26-30 railcard, discount on off peak fares using Oyster can be obtained if you have an annual season ticket which qualifies as a Gold Card.

The cheapest such season ticket is currently Hatton to Lapworth costing £204 per annum.

You’d need to factor in the cost of this, and whether you could start your journeys at off peak times (ie before 06:30 or after 09:30 heading into London) and before 16:00 or after 19:00 on the return journey.


If travelling home in the evening peak then a Gold Card discounted traditional ticket might be cheaper than a Peak Time Oyster fare.

I’m out and about at the moment so can’t easily check.

Thanks, that is an idea. For the 26-30 Railcard to apply. My understanding is that off peak is just past 9 for paper tickets, 9.30 for oyster. From reading the site it doesn't seem to have an evening off peak limit?

 

[JonathanH]

For the 26-30 Railcard to apply. My understanding is that off peak is just past 9 for paper tickets, 9.30 for oyster. From reading the site it doesn't seem to have an evening off peak limit?

A 26 to 30 railcard is valid at all times for 'paper' tickets but with a minimum fare, which is currently £12, for travel before 10am, with no additional restriction in the evening peak.

When applied to Oyster, the 26-30 discount applies whenever off-peak fares are being charged. Therefore, there is no discount between 0630 and 0930, or between 1600 and 1900, except when travelling from outside London Zone 1 into Zone 1, and undiscounted peak fares apply.

 

[30907]

It is no consolation, but Redhill is 20 miles from London Br while Bexley is only 12 - so the fares are roughly in proportion, but Redhill is faster.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My understanding is that off peak is just past 9 for paper tickets...

For Off Peak Day Returns from Redhill to/from London Terminals, it's what time you arrive into London that counts. Not before 0945 (M-F) other than Bank Holidays.

 

[Hadders]

Let's do some detailed analysis... It would be helpful to know where the final location is - Victoria and London Bridge are a significant distance apart so I'm guessing underground travel might be required as well which might change the advice.

If you're going to Victoria then the fares to beat are:
Redhill to London Terminals Anytime Day Return £27.00 (this is also valid to travel to London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink, but see below)
Redhill to London Terminals Off Peak Day Return £15.20 (valid any train arriving London Terminals at or after after 09:45, no evening restrictions)

If you're going to London Bridge the fares to beat are:
Redhill to London Thameslink Anytime Day Return £25.70
Redhill to London Thameslink Off Peak Day Return £15.30 (valid any train arriving at London Bridge at or after 09:45, no evening restrictions)
This ticket is valid to Elephant & Castle, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras. It is not valid to Victoria)

You could buy a flexi-season ticket 8 journeys in 28 days for £189 to London Terminals or £179.90 to London Thameslink. This brings the cost down to £23.63
You say you go in 3 days a week - are these days fixed or have you got any flexibility?

Now let's look at Oyster - the fares to Victoria and London Bridge are the same:
Peak £13.30 (Peak is charged if the touch in time at Redhill between 06:30 and 09:30)
Off Peak £7.70 (£5.05 if you've got a relevant railcard attached to your Oyster card)
The price is the same to return buy peak is charged if the touch in time at Victoria/London Bridge is between 16:00 and 19:00

If you use Oyster and both outward and return travel is at Peak time you'll pay £26.60
If you travel one way at peak time and the other way off peak you'll pay £21.00
If you travel both ways off peak then you pay £15.40

I mentioned a Hatton to Lapworth Annual Season ticket above which qualifies for Gold Card status which you can add to an Oyster Card to obtain a discount on off peak fares. The Gold Card acts a 'souped-up' Network Railcard - unlike a Network Railcard you can add it to an Oyster Card, and there is no minimum discounted fare if buying traditional paper tickets. There are some other benefits as well which I won't go in to now. The Gold Card costs £204 per annum.

If you get the Gold Card discount added to your Oyster Card it would cost:

£5.05 if you touch in at Redhill before 06:30
£13.30 if you touch in at Redhill between 06:30 and 09:30
£5.05 if you touch in at Victoria/London Bridge before 16:00 or after 19:00
£13.30 if you touch in at Victoria/London Bridge between 16:00 and 19:00

Here's the bit no-one's mentioned yet. If travelling home in the evening peak I would not use Oyster. I'd buy a Gold Card discounted Anytime Day Single which costs £8.80 (you can get Gold Card discounts on paper tickets in the evening peak, and unlike the Network Railcard there is no minimum fare with a Gold Card)

If outward and return travel is at peak times then I'd use Oyster for the outward journey and a Gold Card discounted paper ticket for the return. Total cost £22.10
If outward travel is at off peak and return at peak times then use Oyster for the outward journey and a Gold Card discounted paper ticket for the return. Total cost £13.85
If both outward and return travel is at off peak times then use Oyster both ways. Total cost £10.10

If money is tight then you need to avoid travelling into London between 06:30 and 09:30. I'd be looking to get to the office early.....

 

[talldave]

A couple of comments to add to @Hadders excellent summary which might be relevant if you can shuffle/align your work patterns.

If only one of you gets a Gold Card, you can both get the Gold Card discounted paper ticket home if you travel together.

You could consider a weekly season at £83.20 if you tweak your days across two calendar weeks to get 5 days use out of the season ticket. Sadly, you need a photocard for a weekly season so can't share it between the two of you.

Speaking from experience, this analysis calls for a spreadsheet! Although with the options of Flexi & Weekly seasons, Oyster & paper, one or two Gold cards plus the together/apart travel factor, it could become a full time challenge!

Nowadays I'm strictly an Oyster-rite but have fond memories of my Gold Card days that got me into bargain ticket hunting. My speciality was buying tickets to somewhere I wasn't going; I don’t know if Redhill has any bargains of that genre.

 

[takno]

The 8 days in 28 carnet to London Thameslink may be of use at 179.90 https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RDH&dest=LBG&grpd=4452&rte=208&tkt=FL1

 

[Haywain]

The 8 days in 28 carnet to London Thameslink may be of use at 179.90

As already mentioned in post #22. And it's a Flexi-season, not a carnet.

 

[JonathanH]

If cost really is an issue and you choose to live in the northern part of Redhill, it is just about feasible to travel from Redhill to Coulsdon South on the 405 bus and pick up the lower London fares from there. The time penalty is between 20 and 30 minutes per journey.

 

[Hadders]

If necessary, the 26-30 railcard holder can get a discount in the afternoon on a paper ticket as the £12 minimum discounted fare only applies before 10:00.