Redesign Project of First Class 'Voyager 220'

[j1094]

I am a final year Industrial Design student and currently researching my final year project of redesigning the Crosscountry Voyager 220 first class carriage.

I'd be very grateful if I could receive a number of opinions and any knowledge on the following areas:

1) Seating measurements. General industry requirements and standards for seating as well as leg room space. (An idea of measurements would be great)

2) Any suggestions on improvements to the functionality in a first class carriage.

3) Do you think the price for first class travel is justified? If not, why? Likewise if so.

Again if you could provide me with any comments to base my research on it would be much appreciated. Also if anyone is able to access the technical drawings of the Voyager 220 first class carriage and send that to me it would be of great help as it is blurred on their site.

Thanks

 

[Iskra]

A friendly warning: most posters on here dislike voyagers, so prepare for some negative responses.

2) XC 1st class seems perfectly fine to me. (I've travelled 1st with most operators, so feel qualified to compare)

3) Generally not on XC, they are an expensive TOC at the best of times and the 1st class offer isn't generous enough to tempt me to splash out.

 

[scotsman]

The XC First Class service can be lacking at times - often without catering on long stretches at the extremities of the network (eg. Edinburgh - Aberdeen).

The seats on XC Voyagers (for your information these are Class 220 and 221 - same bodyshell, different bogies and an extra coach on the 221) in first are pretty good. Roomier than some TOC first class seats.

Not sure if every seat has a socket, but they should. If the circuitry can't handle it, then USB ports in addition would be a good touch.

The colour scheme isn't bad, but the adverts for the company website at the end of the carriage aren't in keeping with the first class atmosphere. I'm not sure how far your project extends, but new doors to and from the vestibule would be good - the current trains have no motion sensors in them, so people regularly get trapped. They're also quite noisy and slide open on fast bends.

Luggage storage is adequate.

Are you aware the first class carriage also includes the galley, train manager's area, and a driving cab? Not sure if you mean the "saloon" of the carriage, or the entire train carriage.

 

[swt_passenger]

1) Seating measurements. General industry requirements and standards for seating as well as leg room space. (An idea of measurements would be great)

I don't think there are any. People spent ages trying to come up with a stick to beat the new IEP design with and failed, IIRC. You'd probably have difficulty finding an agreed way of measuring seats in the first place...

However the DfT did publish an Intercity Express Programme (IEP) train technical specification, and although this is about a future train that does give various expected measurements for seat spacing and pitch etc. In the absence of anything better that could be a reasonable guide to what is realistic.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf

Annex D goes into passenger accommodation in great detail. Earlier sections would help you build a set of questions to be asked and answered about accommodation generally, and the first class extras in particular.

Armed with that detail, take a ride in a 220 and see how it compares. I think it is OK, but I only started using 'first' recently when I got my senior railcard...

Hope that is of help.

 

[tankmc]

I am a final year Industrial Design student and currently researching my final year project of redesigning the Crosscountry Voyager 220 first class carriage.

I'd be very grateful if I could receive a number of opinions and any knowledge on the following areas:

1) Seating measurements. General industry requirements and standards for seating as well as leg room space. (An idea of measurements would be great)

2) Any suggestions on improvements to the functionality in a first class carriage.

3) Do you think the price for first class travel is justified? If not, why? Likewise if so.

Again if you could provide me with any comments to base my research on it would be much appreciated. Also if anyone is able to access the technical drawings of the Voyager 220 first class carriage and send that to me it would be of great help as it is blurred on their site.

Thanks

What a interesting project and would be nice to get a update in the future!

I think that catering and service lack first. From what I remember the seats where spacious but o would be nice to see some innovation

 

[WatcherZero]

J1094 Shouldnt you be referencing design standards as part of your work rather than just taking our word for it?

 

[andrewkeith5]

J1094 Shouldnt you be referencing design standards as part of your work rather than just taking our word for it?

I took it that question 1 was asking if anyone was aware of what the design standard was/is/typically is for the seats.

There is no harm is asking people what they think they would like from something. If everything was only ever done to 'design standards' the world would be a very, very boring place! We'd also never or rarely change anything....

I think functionally the first class area in a Voyager is so small that there isn't really much there, let alone room for improvement!

My only real comment about the first class in Voyagers is that the galley/train managers office takes up more space than I think necessary - the seats are reasonably comfortable and you get a reasonable amount of space, but on the whole the compartment feels cramped. I'm not a fan of the 'train managers office' idea so perhaps this could be deleted, with some reorganisation of the (barely used, anyway) galley to increase the space and number of seats would be good. Leather seats would be preferred, (though I'm not that bothered about them reclining, I feel like I'm lying down in most first class seats in upright mode anyway!), provided the air conditioning worked, and the loss of all the advertising would go down well with me.

The catering provision is decidedly lackluster in XC First whenever I've travelled. I don't know what the new food service is like as I haven't had a chance to use it, but on a long-distance service I would typically expect at least a significant snack or small meal at most times of day included in the price. Possible things I'd be interested in seeing in the UK are self-service drinks machines as on Italo and freely available water as normally provided on Pendolino services.

As for first class being of good value, generally not on XC in my experience. I will typically only pay for first class on long distance TOCs where I am getting something for my money (which, at the minimum, needs to be an improved environment, more space, hot and soft drinks and some sort of snacks, and preferably would include alcohol and a light meal). Generally, if the price of First advance inflexible fares is within a given %age of the standard class flexible fare I'll upgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one thing I don't like about Voyager first class is the lack of window alignment in some seats. The layout could be improved with a bit of thought I think.

There is also that almost all seats face backwards in one direction, but that I think is down to the rules about end vehicles over 100/110mph so not a lot can be done.

 

[asylumxl]

J1094 Shouldnt you be referencing design standards as part of your work rather than just taking our word for it?

Wouldn't it be far more helpful to link the OP to the relevant standard?

Incidentally, this is the RSSB's guidance for interior structures, which you should be aware of when designing your interior.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GMGN2687 Iss 1.pdf

 

[Jonfun]

My only real comment about the first class in Voyagers is that the galley/train managers office takes up more space than I think necessary - the seats are reasonably comfortable and you get a reasonable amount of space, but on the whole the compartment feels cramped.

Sorry but I have to disagree. The Voyager galley is cramped when you have a FCH in there, never mind adding on the Train Manager, Retail Service Manager, potential assisting traincrew, the driver popping out to grab a brew, the odd Revenue & Support Specialist coming out for a jolly and then the passenger with a standard class ticket who "no, I don't want to upgrade, I just want to stand here."

 

[andrewkeith5]

Sorry but I have to disagree. The Voyager galley is cramped when you have a FCH in there, never mind adding on the Train Manager, Retail Service Manager, potential assisting traincrew, the driver popping out to grab a brew, the odd Revenue & Support Specialist coming out for a jolly and then the passenger with a standard class ticket who "no, I don't want to upgrade, I just want to stand here."

That's a lot of people standing in what is essentially a kitchen who's job titles suggest that the kitchen isn't the right place for them...

Out of interest, does anyone have any information as to what is in a Voyager galley?

 

[scotsman]

That's a lot of people standing in what is essentially a kitchen who's job titles suggest that the kitchen isn't the right place for them...

Out of interest, does anyone have any information as to what is in a Voyager galley?

It's not really a kitchen as far as I'm aware. Microwave/grill, fridge(s?), coffee machine, storage - not sure what else. There's a fold down seat and a TMS terminal on the other side.

 

[BestWestern]

That's a lot of people standing in what is essentially a kitchen who's job titles suggest that the kitchen isn't the right place for them...

Out of interest, does anyone have any information as to what is in a Voyager galley?

Where else would you suggest staff who need to travel should be on a train which often doesn't have room for the passengers within the coaches, let alone crew?

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Could Voyagers not be installed with Swinging seats as fitted to most of the trains in Sydney that allow you to always face the right direction of travel?

 

[Jonfun]

That's a lot of people standing in what is essentially a kitchen who's job titles suggest that the kitchen isn't the right place for them...

Out of interest, does anyone have any information as to what is in a Voyager galley?

VT's are kitted out better than XC's because they serve more substantial food, but an XC Voyager has cupboards, a fridge, cart for complimentary snacks and a bin cart, combi oven, water boiler/coffee machine, sink, boxes for storing stock etc. Then opposite you've got a fold down seat and a TMS screen.

 

[wensley]

Isn't the galley/office at either end of the train part of the safety requirement for 125mog DMUs? I believe there is a requirement for a certain proportion of leading/trailing vehicles not to carry passengers in case of collision. Please correct me if I. Wrong, but there's something in my head saying this is right