Redcar Central [RCC] - York [YRK] - Shipley [SHY]

[bennorthyork]

I need to travel tomorrow from Redcar to York on the first train 06.37 arriving at York 07.58. (The GC train which is cheaper is too late for me).

Then I need to leave York some time between 16.00 and 17.30 to travel from York - Shipley.

Please can someone advise the cheapest tickets?

 

[sonic2009]

I need to travel tomorrow from Redcar to York on the first train 06.37 arriving at York 07.58. (The GC train which is cheaper is too late for me).

Then I need to leave York some time between 16.00 and 17.30 to travel from York - Shipley.

Please can someone advise the cheapest tickets?

if its allowed a middlesborough to carlisle anytime rtn £22.80

 

[yorkie]

As you are travelling before the 'Not Darlington' CDR to York (and associated stations) becomes available at 0900, I agree that the Redcar to Carlisle SOR at £22.80 is the cheapest way to do it.

 

[142094]

You don't say if you're returning or not, so if you just want the single, Redcar Central - Carlisle is £19.60.

 

[bennorthyork]

It's just a single. Thanks guys. Will get the Redcar - Carlisle ticket. As it's not an obvious routing am I likely to be challenged?

 

[yorkie]

Quite possibly. Bring the relevant maps etc. More so if you have missed the last train to Carlisle as they will probably advise you of the fact, in which case just say you are breaking your journey at Shipley. I would buy the ticket to Langwathby rather than Carlisle, the fare is the same.

If you complain too much then expect the routeing of that ticket to get withdrawn, someone on this forum did Newcastle-Carlisle via Leeds, which is even more ridiculous, didn't bring appropriate documentation, was asked to buy a new ticket, which he bought and he then applied for a refund, he got it but they then said they'd withdraw the routeing, which they did (though it took a year or two!). Before he did that, someone else from this forum successfully travelled via Leeds because he brought all the relevant documentation with him including all the appropriate pages from the Routeing Guide, so when he was challenged he was able to demonstrate it was valid.

 

[bennorthyork]

I won't complain and will have the relevant information with me. Does someone have the links to the routing guide pages please? Thanks everyone

 

[transportphoto]

I won't complain and will have the relevant information with me. Does someone have the links to the routing guide pages please? Thanks everyone

The Routing Guide in full can be found here... http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

 

[bennorthyork]

Thanks all. It's very interesting that the routing guide allows this much longer route than the intuitive one via Newcastle. Are there other examples in the routing guide of routes where you can travel so many times further than the shortest route for the same fare?

 

[John @ home]

Are there other examples in the routing guide of routes where you can travel so many times further than the shortest route for the same fare?

Many.

But don't expect us to attempt to compile a comprehensive list on this forum. The reason is that once such a route appears here, ATOC tend to try to do something about it.

What they do about it seldom displays competence. For example, for the journey Woking - Slough, there are three sets of fares:

• route WINDSOR
• route READING NOT LOND
• route + ANY PERMITTED

There are no mapped routes via Windsor, so presumably the ticket is valid by any permitted route from Woking to Windsor & Eton Riverside, then a walk, then by any permitted route from Windsor & Eton Central to Slough. But where can you travel using a Woking - Slough route Reading not London ticket?

In July 2009 embers25 pointed out in Routing Question from Woking to Slough that, using maps WR+WX, Woking - Slough was then permitted via Exeter. At that time travel was not permitted via Gloucester.

After a series of events, during which the treatment of embers25 reflected very badly on the railway industry, the Routeing Guide was changed with effect from 7 August 2009.

Permitted Route Identifier, 2 July 2009
Woking - Slough LONDON WR+WX

Permitted Route Identifier, 7 August 2009
Woking - Slough LONDON LW+WX

As a result of this change, Woking - Slough via Exeter was removed as a permitted route. Woking - Slough via Gloucester was introduced as a new permitted route.

The route via Gloucester was removed by another change to the Routeing Guide with effect from 16 October 2009.

Permitted Route Identifier, 16 October 2009
Woking - Slough LONDON RG+WX

This latest change has still left an unsatisfactory position. Avoiding London, the only Woking - Slough mapped routes over which a train service operates are:

• WX: Woking - Surbiton - Wimbledon - Clapham Jn - Barnes - Richmond - Twickenham - Feltham - Staines - Ascot - Wokingham - Reading, then RG: Reading - Slough. (77.25 miles)
• WX: Woking - Surbiton - Wimbledon - Clapham Jn - Barnes - Hounslow - Twickenham - Feltham - Staines - Ascot - Wokingham - Reading, then RG: Reading - Slough. (78.5 miles)

At present these much shorter, more obvious routes are not mapped routes:

• Woking - Farnborough Main - (walk) - Farnborough North - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (42 miles)
• Woking - Chertsey - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (47.5 miles)
• Woking - Aldershot - Ash - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (50.5 miles)
• Woking - Ash Vale - Camberley - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (52.25 miles)
• Woking - Basingstoke - Reading - Slough. (56.5 miles)

 

[button_boxer]

At present these much shorter, more obvious routes are not mapped routes:

• Woking - Farnborough Main - (walk) - Farnborough North - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (42 miles)
• Woking - Chertsey - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (47.5 miles)
• Woking - Aldershot - Ash - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (50.5 miles)
• Woking - Ash Vale - Camberley - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (52.25 miles)
• Woking - Basingstoke - Reading - Slough. (56.5 miles)

Are these the shortest possible routes? If so that raises an interesting question. We know that "the shortest route that can be travelled by scheduled passenger trains" (or words to that effect) is always valid, as is any route up to three miles longer. But can a route that requires a walk be considered the shortest? If so then the Farnborough route is permitted and the others aren't, if not then the Farnborough route is not permitted but the Chertsey and Aldershot ones are...

 

[John @ home]

At present these much shorter, more obvious routes are not mapped routes:

• Woking - Farnborough Main - (walk) - Farnborough North - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (42 miles)
• Woking - Chertsey - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (47.5 miles)
• Woking - Aldershot - Ash - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (50.5 miles)
• Woking - Ash Vale - Camberley - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (52.25 miles)
• Woking - Basingstoke - Reading - Slough. (56.5 miles)

Are these the shortest possible routes?

No. They are the shortest routes via Reading because I was discussing the permitted routes for a Woking - Slough route Reading not London ticket.

The shortest possible route appears to be Woking - (avoiding Weybridge) - Chertsey - Staines - Windsor & Eton Riverside - (walk) - Windsor & Eton Central - Slough, of which the railway element is 23.5 miles.

that raises an interesting question. We know that "the shortest route that can be travelled by scheduled passenger trains" (or words to that effect) is always valid, as is any route up to three miles longer. But can a route that requires a walk be considered the shortest?

In the days before ATOC stopped trying to give sensible answers to routeing guide enquiries from members of the public, they went some way towards answering this question.

31 July 1998

Question 9: can a journey involve a walk between stations?

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html

25 September 1998

Qu.9: Can a journey involve a walk between stations?

Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html

There is little doubt that a passenger must walk (or use alternative transport) between Windsor & Eton Riverside and Windsor & Eton Central if using a Woking - Slough route Windsor ticket.

In addition, a passenger may choose to walk (or use alternative transport) between Farnborough Main and Farnborough North if using a Woking - Slough route Reading not London ticket. But they are not required to walk between stations if using this ticket because there are other permitted routes available which have a regular scheduled train service.

My view is that neither of these routes qualify as the shortest route because there is no train service at all between Windsor & Eton Riverside and Windsor & Eton Central, nor between Farnborough Main and Farnborough North. The shortest distance over which a scheduled train service runs is therefore

• Woking - Chertsey - Ascot - Reading - Slough. (47.5 miles)

That is therefore a Permitted Route. In addition,

• Woking - Aldershot - Ash - Sandhurst - Reading - Slough. (50.5 miles)

is a distance longer by no more than 3 miles. It is therefore also a Permitted Route.