Red & White Services v Phil Anslow & Sons (Cwmbran Bus Station)

[Dai Corner]

Stagecoach subsidiary Red & White and family firm Anslow’s have been in dispute over the use of the limited number of stands at Cwmbran bus station in South Wales for some time know and the matter has now reached the courts. The outcome could have ‘far reaching effects’ apparently.

The bus station is, perhaps unusually, owned by the property company who also own the adjacent shopping centre rather than the local authority or bus company.

This may be an interesting case to follow. Let’s hope it doesn’t turn out to be one of those cases where the only winners are the lawyers.

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...ching__39__effects_if_successful__court_told/

A BUS company's claim against a rival operator at Cwmbran Bus Station could have 'far-reaching' effects if it is successful, a court has heard.

A dispute between Red & White Services Ltd, parent company of Stagecoach, and Phil Anslow & Sons Coaches Ltd over access to bus stands at the town station has ended up in court.

At a pre-trial hearing at the Cardiff Civil and Family Justice Centre yesterday, the court heard there are seven to eight stands at the bus station.

The defendant, Phil Anslow and Sons Coaches, has fewer slots than the claimant, Red and White Services Ltd.

The court heard an argument arose about access to the bus stops and Red and White Services made a claim over alleged trespassing by Phil Anslow and Sons Coaches.

In response, Phil Anslow and Sons made a counter claim against Red and White Services and against Prudential, owners of the station, under competition law.

If the claim is successful it would mean the lease would be effectively void, the court heard.

Andy Creer, representing Red and White Services, said the case would have "important ramifications."

Ms Creer said Stagecoach had complied with a business market order and was operating within the law. But she said if the counter claim was successful it would potentially mean the lease is void and mean operating within the law was "immaterial" to wider abuse issues.

"It would be a ground-breaking case or decision if the whole lease is to be void," she said.

Ben Rayment, representing, Prudential, also said the case could have "wide-reaching effects" and affect his client's investment decisions.

Jennifer MacLeod, representing Phil Anslow and Coaches, said the counter claim was for between £80,000 and £120,000.

A 10-day trial date was set from July 2 next year if the issue is not resolved beforehand. A dispute arose over the budget for the case to be brought to trial.

Red and White Services and Prudential representatives estimated the cost at £1.5m.

But Ms MacLeod said the defendant was a family run business with limited net assets and that the monetary claim was 'disproportionate' to the trial cost.

Justice Birss ordered the budget was set at £800,000.

 

[Mwanesh]

Phil Anslow should have approached the land owner.The facebook post when it started was everyone should just use the bus station.Every day he posted anti Stagecoach posts on his facebook and twitter page.He never bothered looking at access rights.

 

[overthewater]

I would throw the case out and demand both parties sit down with the council and talk it out. Then the council should make a legal ruling on it and foces the shopping centre to comply.

 

[Dai Corner]

As I understand it, Prudential (the owners) lease stands to operators who have exclusive use of ‘their’ stands. Stagecoach have leased all but one of them and Anslows have the other one and share it with Newport Transport who only run about one service an hour.

Stand A is a Stagecoach Stand which they use for their X24 fast service to Newport every 10 minutes. Anslow’s started running a competing service from that stand which clearly annoyed Stagecoach and it escalated from there.

I don’t think it’s anything to do with the Council. The bus station is privately owned.

I feel the offer of a suitably large rent would get Anslow the additional stand(s) they want.

 

[overthewater]

Then its anslows fault then, I dare day his buses are times to leave a min ahead but somehow leave late, he wants his cake and eat it. I have NEVER heard of any other place where two companies running every 10mins shared the same bus stances.. that just asking for trouble.

 

[Dai Corner]

Then its anslows fault then, I dare day his buses are times to leave a min ahead but somehow leave late, he wants his cake and eat it. I have NEVER heard of any other place where two companies running every 10mins shared the same bus stances.. that just asking for trouble.

I should have added that Anslow’s Newport service was every 30minutes and there was a similar dispute at the Newport end. It no longer runs.

 

[carlberry]

I would throw the case out and demand both parties sit down with the council and talk it out. Then the council should make a legal ruling on it and foces the shopping centre to comply.

Councils cant make legal rulings, however if they wanted to they could buy the land the bus station sits on. I suspect they've got better uses for the money however.
(And even if they did it's more likely they'll flog it off for offices than care about bus passengers!).

 

[Busaholic]

[QUOTE="Dai Corner, post: 3474035,

This may be an interesting case to follow. Let’s hope it doesn’t turn out to be one of those cases where the only winners are the lawyers.

][/QUOTE]
Suspect it might prove to be.

 

[Dai Corner]

Incidentally, the current incarnation of Phil Anslow’s company is the third. The first two were sold to, er, Stagecoach.

 

[Mwanesh]

I should have added that Anslow’s Newport service was every 30minutes and there was a similar dispute at the Newport end. It no longer runs.

I have followed this from the start.Anslow went by comments on facebook that people would use his buses instead of Stagecoach.His 24X went head to head with Stagecoach Gold X24.He was loosing money .When he withdrew it he blamed Stagecoach for blocking him at the station but he was running from the same stand as them.As you said his was 30mins and X24 is every 10minutes.

 

[Busaholic]

Mr Anslow sounds like he's from the same mould as Brian Souter and his sister Ann Gloag!

 

[kernowbususer]

If the station is managed by a non bus related business then on reading the CMA order published in 2012 it would appear to fall outside the scope of the regulations regarding fair access. The CMA order can be viewed here. https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/345158/Bus_station_access_Order.pdf

 

[Dai Corner]

If the station is managed by a non bus related business then on reading the CMA order published in 2012 it would appear to fall outside the scope of the regulations regarding fair access. The CMA order can be viewed here. https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/345158/Bus_station_access_Order.pdf

Thanks for the link. I can only imagine that Anslows are seeking to demonstrate that the owners, Prudential, are “acting under an arrangement with” Red & White and therefore fall within scope.

 

[carlberry]

Thanks for the link. I can only imagine that Anslows are seeking to demonstrate that the owners, Prudential, are “acting under an arrangement with” Red & White and therefore fall within scope.

I thought that the recent cases with Luton Airport had already given lawyers enough money in connection with this sort of thing!

 

[GrogSmuggler]

I have followed this from the start.Anslow went by comments on facebook that people would use his buses instead of Stagecoach.His 24X went head to head with Stagecoach Gold X24.He was loosing money .When he withdrew it he blamed Stagecoach for blocking him at the station but he was running from the same stand as them.As you said his was 30mins and X24 is every 10minutes.

When down in Wales I've used that service a few times if visiting Blaenhavon, Pontypool or Cwmbran. I won't be the first to praise the big busco's, but I must be honest and say I would absolutely prefer to use Stagecoach's X24. Yes, the shell of the vehicles might be a touch older; but the quality of the service is top notch enough. I can't fault it or find grounds for a competing service.

Here's a video link to BBC Wales coverage on the dispute last year:

 

[Tetchytyke]

Stagecoach using bullyingtactics, including denying access to infrastructure andthe threat of exorbitant legal bills, to try and drive a competitor off the road?

Say it ain't so!

So much for Souter and Gloag's claim that they'll start behaving ethically, eh!

 

[Mwanesh]

Stagecoach using bullyingtactics, including denying access to infrastructure andthe threat of exorbitant legal bills, to try and drive a competitor off the road?

Say it ain't so!

So much for Souter and Gloag's claim that they'll start behaving ethically, eh!

They are tenants also they dont even own the bus station .If you lease space can anyone just come in and use your space and slandering you on facebook.The minute Anslow knew it was going to court any reference of Stagecoach on their page has stopped.

 

[Dai Corner]

Stagecoach using bullyingtactics, including denying access to infrastructure andthe threat of exorbitant legal bills, to try and drive a competitor off the road?

Say it ain't so!

So much for Souter and Gloag's claim that they'll start behaving ethically, eh!

It ain’t so.

Anslow’s tried to pick up some of the Cwmbran-Newport traffic by running buses from the stand leased to Stagecoach by Prudential, the owners of the bus station, for their exclusive use. Anslow’s lease a stand themselves so must have been aware of the exclusive use clause.

It could be argued that Anslow’s were competing unfairly by using the stand without paying, as well as causing congestion (eight buses an hour from one stand is probably too many). They also have a lower cost base as they don’t operate evenings or Sundays so could be accused of cherry picking the more profitable daytime traffic.

Anslow’s paid Facebook to promote the posts Mwanesh refers to to as wide an audience as possible.

 

[Mwanesh]

They dont even do that route .

 

[goldisgood]

View attachment 47360 They dont even do that route .

This looks a bit wrong. Can anyone who is local answer?
1. Are Stagecoach's prices 'ludicrous'?
2. Are Stagecoach's buses much more 'reliable' than Phil Anslow's?
3. Are Stagecoach's vehicles 'old'? And don't the vast majority have wifi?
4. Are Stagecoach's drivers 'not passenger friendly'? And are Phil Anslow's drivers noticeably 'friendly'?
5. How exactly are Stagecoach bullies? They leased the stand fair and square from what I have seen, with Phil Anslow running a directly competing service from the stand which was leased by Stagecoach and he wasn't paying for, therefore trespassing and breaking the law. I fail to see how any of this is a problem with Stagecoach and not Phil Anslow, apart from the fact that Stagecoach have (fairly?) leased all the stands.

 

[158756]

This looks a bit wrong. Can anyone who is local answer?
1. Are Stagecoach's prices 'ludicrous'?

I can't answer the rest of the questions, indeed I've never been to Torfaen, but £46 per month (or rather 4 weeks) for travel within Pontypool, a town of 36,000, seems a bit steep (and is bizarrely more expensive than the equivalent Cwmbran ticket). £68 for Torfaen, £72 for Cwmbran and Newport, £99 for South Wales, which appears to be the only ticket allowing Pontypool to Newport. And remember this includes some of the poorest areas in Western Europe, never mind Wales.

 

[Robertj21a]

Stagecoach using bullyingtactics, including denying access to infrastructure andthe threat of exorbitant legal bills, to try and drive a competitor off the road?

Say it ain't so!

So much for Souter and Gloag's claim that they'll start behaving ethically, eh!

Seems that it ain't so. You're just letting your anti-Stagecoach hysteria show through, again.

 

[Westnat]

Stagecoach using bullyingtactics, including denying access to infrastructure andthe threat of exorbitant legal bills, to try and drive a competitor off the road?

Say it ain't so!

So much for Souter and Gloag's claim that they'll start behaving ethically, eh!

It ain't so!!!!
Stagecoach weren't denying access to the infrastructure.
Anslow tried to obstruct Stagecoach in Newport Bus Station. They were allocated the same stand as the Stagecoach 15 service (Adjacent to the X24 stand) but still insisted on using the X24 stand whenever they could.
Anslow also blocks anyone who is critical of his services from posting on his Facebook site.

 

[Dai Corner]

As we've got some people here who are probably not familiar with Cwmbran bus station, it's worth mentioning that it's bursting at the seams with more buses using it than it was designed for.

I'd much rather see the money which is being spent on lawyers spent on architects and contractors to provide some more capacity, though that doesn't look straightforward as it's an integral part of the shopping centre. The Anslows could then lease additional stands to expand their business. I can see how frustrating it is for them at the moment.

 

[GrogSmuggler]

Cwmbran doesn't really have a 'bus station' per-say, it's more a roundabout pull-in of chaos; it's god awful and a pain in the ass if you need to get from one side to the other in a rush. As for that insulting piece of self-damaging artwork that listed unreliability, prices and so forth - not at all, as far as I'm concerned. The X24 service that Stagecoach offer is far superior - but it might not have been when that poster was initially made.

Either Stagecoach implemented their Gold service on that route after competition from Phil, or, there's blatant lies from the independent operator and deliberately using outdated photos etc. Judging by the balls, stupidity, arrogance, pure idiocy and gun-hoe approach.. Stagecoach certainly have the higher ground on this one.

 

[Dai Corner]

The X24 was 'Gold' long before the Anslow's started competing between Newport and Cwmbran. I think they bought/leased a brand new bus for that service but it's unfair to compare it with those used on a completely different route.

I believe Stagecoach currently use 65 reg buses on the X24, so only 2 or 3 years old.

 

[carlberry]

As we've got some people here who are probably not familiar with Cwmbran bus station, it's worth mentioning that it's bursting at the seams with more buses using it than it was designed for.

I'd much rather see the money which is being spent on lawyers spent on architects and contractors to provide some more capacity, though that doesn't look straightforward as it's an integral part of the shopping centre. The Anslows could then lease additional stands to expand their business. I can see how frustrating it is for them at the moment.

The only outcome I can see from all this fuss is that the shopping centre owners close the bus station and redevelop it as shops (or a premium parking area!). It cant be raising much money for them and, now, is causing bad publicity.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’m a little confused but is the poster highlighting the difference in the PA X1 and the Stagecoach X15 from Brynmawr to Aberbeeg, rather than the X24?

 

[PeterC]

I’m a little confused but is the poster highlighting the difference in the PA X1 and the Stagecoach X15 from Brynmawr to Aberbeeg, rather than the X24?

Certainly looks like an X15 to me.
I haven't used a bus in the area since Western Welsh days but I drive through several times a year and was struck by the number of "Gold" branded buses in the Eastern Valley

 

[GrogSmuggler]

I believe Stagecoach currently use 65 reg buses on the X24, so only 2 or 3 years old.

You're right.

SN65' when I was down there last year. For some reason I remembered them for looking older than they were.