Red Rose / Red Line Group

[Mal]

Does anyone know if Red Rose and Red Line use fleetnumbers. IIRC Red Rose used 50xxx numbers, but these seem to have been dropped. Also, I believe Red Line numbered buses from 1 upward. Can anyone help, please?

(Mod. Please re-open a previous thread if neccesary. Many thanks.)

 

[318266]

This has been a matter of long-term debate in certain enthusiast communities. Both fleet number systems seem largely arbitrary, and therefore are considered useless. No communication has been forthwith from any of the "Red Group" operators as to what they could be.

The matter has so-oft been rehashed by some younger enthusiasts that a website was created to mock those believing they "understood the system".

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are just a very informal association of small independent family businesses, so I don't think anything can be said to be defined between them as such bar a few things regarding ticket validity.

 

[PeterC]

They are just a very informal association of small independent family businesses, so I don't think anything can be said to be defined between them as such bar a few things regarding ticket validity.

But only one family. Last time i looked at the legals on the side of a bus Rose and Eagle were sharing the same address.

I really can't be bothered to look up the mix of directors now. I did a long time ago and it seemed to be pern any two from the same three ( brothers?).

 

[greenline712]

Red Rose and Red Eagle share the same address, but are separate companies. The owners are from the same family, but don't share the same business plan (and are reported as not speaking to each other!)

Red Line is an entirely different company, but I believe that one of the directors is also involved in either Red Rose or Red Eagle.

There is also Z&S and Star Taxis operating in Aylesbury . . . both seemingly independent, although, again, I believe that Star may have some familial connection with one of the others. It's all very incestuous . . . !! If you look on the

Find lorry or bus operators

Find lorry and bus operators by name, address or licence number

www.gov.uk

site, you can see the current (and previous) situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Red Rose and Red Eagle share the same address, but are separate companies. The owners are from the same family, but don't share the same business plan (and are reported as not speaking to each other!)

It does appear from the past that family fallings-out tend to result in more "Red" companies appearing!

Z&S* is a different family but no doubt there are connections there too, probably via the local mosque (I believe the owners are all Muslim so I guess it's natural dealings go on there instead of the pub!)

* Stands for "Zaman & Son" I believe, it's owned by Umar Zaman but at least was mostly managed by his son Saleem.

 

[Budge1980]

Companies House is a good way to see the links. As I write:

Re Red Rose and Red Eagle, they share a Director

Sardar Ali KHAN personal appointments - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Re Red Rose and Red Line, they show as related parties in the latest accounts See Note 10, Page 7 (2024 accounts as I write)

RED ROSE TRAVEL LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

RED ROSE TRAVEL LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Red Line, Red Rose and Red Eagle all have at least 1 Director with the same correspondence address. There are 4 Directors across the 3 companies. However, one of the Directors of Red Line is also listed under "Persons with Significant Control" of Red Rose, albeit he isn't a Director of Red Rose.

RED ROSE TRAVEL LIMITED persons with significant control - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

RED ROSE TRAVEL LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[greenline712]

Heck . . . I forgot Vale Travel!! Seeing the 7 Vale Road address reminded me!! I don't know if thay're still current, mind you . . .

 

[Mal]

The whole set-up of the Red Group and associated companies seems to be done in a way that no-one is certain about the whole organisation and more complex than a bowlful of spaghetti. Thank you all for your replies though, much appreciated.

 

[Simon75]

An older thread

Red Rose, Red Line and Red Eagle.

Does anyone know if RedLine and Red Eagle share management with Red Rose and if so, where can I find a fleetlist for all three? Many thanks in advance.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Simon75]

Also

Aylesbury based independent bus operators.

I am starting this new thread to discuss the group of six related Aylesbury based independent operators that operate buses across the Buckinghamshire area and surrounding counties: Red Eagle Buses Red Line Buses Red Rose Buses Star Travel Vale Travel Z & S Transport These six operators are...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[stadler]

I believe the fleet numbers were introduced back when all three operators got INIT ticket machines about ten to fifteen years ago. Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose all introduced their combined five digit fleet numbering system at the same time. This was partly because the INIT ticket machines can only handle numbers so they could not use the reg numbers on the machines. All three have switched to Ticketer now which uses reg numbers so they no longer seem to use fleet numbers as much as they used to. They do not seem to care about fleet numbers any more.

Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose all work very closely together. These three companies all use "Red Group" branding on ticket rolls and on some of their vehicles and in the Aylesbury bus information office. They also sell "Red Group" tickets valid on all three. So they definitely work closely together and feel like one operator with three brands.

I think that Star Travel and Vale Travel and Z&S have all had some sort of association with these three "Red Group" operators in the past.

Z&S currently seem to be separate. They do not have any reference to Red Group on their buses or website. They still run quite a few routes around Aylesbury and even have at least one directly competing with a Red Group operator.

Vale Travel lost all of their routes earlier this year. They have nothing left. It is not clear whether they still exist and do private hire or private contracts. At one point they had over ten routes around the Aylesbury area and slowly just lost all of them. I recall in their last year they only had two routes left and now nothing. They are still listed on bustimes so they may still exist in some form.

Star Travel only have two routes left which are both evening only services. Just one vehicle for a couple hours in the evening doing two routes. I am not sure if they have any other work like private hire or private contracts. Again they previously used to run over ten routes around the Aylesbury area and now have just two evening routes.

Red Kite was another one that has dissappeared about five years ago. They used to run a network of various infrequent rural routes around the Aylesbury area. They never even had a proper livery. I presume this was yet another related "Red Group" company but i have never been certain. I think they have shut down now unless Red Kite still do private contracts or private hire.

 

[Bedford OB]

I believe the fleet numbers were introduced back when all three operators got INIT ticket machines about ten to fifteen years ago. Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose all introduced their combined five digit fleet numbering system at the same time. This was partly because the INIT ticket machines can only handle numbers so they could not use the reg numbers on the machines. All three have switched to Ticketer now which uses reg numbers so they no longer seem to use fleet numbers as much as they used to. They do not seem to care about fleet numbers any more.

Red Eagle and Red Line and Red Rose all work very closely together. These three companies all use "Red Group" branding on ticket rolls and on some of their vehicles and in the Aylesbury bus information office. They also sell "Red Group" tickets valid on all three. So they definitely work closely together and feel like one operator with three brands.

I think that Star Travel and Vale Travel and Z&S have all had some sort of association with these three "Red Group" operators in the past.

Z&S currently seem to be separate. They do not have any reference to Red Group on their buses or website. They still run quite a few routes around Aylesbury and even have at least one directly competing with a Red Group operator.

Vale Travel lost all of their routes earlier this year. They have nothing left. It is not clear whether they still exist and do private hire or private contracts. At one point they had over ten routes around the Aylesbury area and slowly just lost all of them. I recall in their last year they only had two routes left and now nothing. They are still listed on bustimes so they may still exist in some form.

Star Travel only have two routes left which are both evening only services. Just one vehicle for a couple hours in the evening doing two routes. I am not sure if they have any other work like private hire or private contracts. Again they previously used to run over ten routes around the Aylesbury area and now have just two evening routes.

Red Kite was another one that has dissappeared about five years ago. They used to run a network of various infrequent rural routes around the Aylesbury area. They never even had a proper livery. I presume this was yet another related "Red Group" company but i have never been certain. I think they have shut down now unless Red Kite still do private contracts or private hire.

Red Kite Commercial Services operated out of Tilsworth and was owned by Messrs Hoar and Savage. It was mostly a Bedfordshire operator and had no connection with any of the Aylesbury Red Group businesses. The owners closed the business some years ago now.

 

[duncombec]

I don't think it's entirely fair to be suggesting companies may not "still exist" whilst appearing to have missed a number of potential hints on well-known websites.

Vale Travel lost all of their routes earlier this year. They have nothing left. It is not clear whether they still exist and do private hire or private contracts. At one point they had over ten routes around the Aylesbury area and slowly just lost all of them. I recall in their last year they only had two routes left and now nothing. They are still listed on bustimes so they may still exist in some form.

Vale operate a number of closed door school contracts for Oxfordshire (who state operators) and Buckinghamshire (who don't). Their website is a bit out of date (it still shows the 50 and 60 Sunday services), but they did have a number here: https://www.valetravel.net/school-travel. There is a picture on Flickr of one their private hire coaches in August https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/54750522978/, April https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-plackett/54433747288/, and a school bus in June https://www.flickr.com/photos/busboy16164/54682458345/.

They have an O-license for 27 vehicles: https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/428056

Star Travel only have two routes left which are both evening only services. Just one vehicle for a couple hours in the evening doing two routes. I am not sure if they have any other work like private hire or private contracts. Again they previously used to run over ten routes around the Aylesbury area and now have just two evening routes.

Star Travel are pictured in March https://www.flickr.com/photos/mkrbus/54385481052/ and June https://www.flickr.com/photos/200164748@N02/54569705512/, both on school contracts, which suggests that is also a part of their business.

They have an O-license for 15 vehicles: https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/465800

Perhaps someone who has bought the new edition (22 September 2025) edition of the PSVC G-List for Beds and Bucks (G951) could advise as to how many vehicles the PSVC currently has recorded for each operator? It's a bit too out of my area for me to spend the £12!

 

[Bedford OB]

I don't think it's entirely fair to be suggesting companies may not "still exist" whilst appearing to have missed a number of potential hints on well-known websites.


Vale operate a number of closed door school contracts for Oxfordshire (who state operators) and Buckinghamshire (who don't). Their website is a bit out of date (it still shows the 50 and 60 Sunday services), but they did have a number here: https://www.valetravel.net/school-travel. There is a picture on Flickr of one their private hire coaches in August https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/54750522978/, April https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-plackett/54433747288/, and a school bus in June https://www.flickr.com/photos/busboy16164/54682458345/.

They have an O-license for 27 vehicles: https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/428056


Star Travel are pictured in March https://www.flickr.com/photos/mkrbus/54385481052/ and June https://www.flickr.com/photos/200164748@N02/54569705512/, both on school contracts, which suggests that is also a part of their business.

They have an O-license for 15 vehicles: https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/view-details/licence/465800

Perhaps someone who has bought the new edition (22 September 2025) edition of the PSVC G-List for Beds and Bucks (G951) could advise as to how many vehicles the PSVC currently has recorded for each operator? It's a bit too out of my area for me to spend the £12!

As per G951, Star Travel have two vehicles licensed (one Solo, one Mercedes), and three withdrawn (two Solos, one Mercedes).
Vale Travel have a sizeable fleet - 31 vehicles licensed, including nine double deck, plus eleven unlicensed or withdrawn.
As you say, it is perfectly clear that these operators continue to function.

 

[CN12 AWU]

As per G951, Star Travel have two vehicles licensed (one Solo, one Mercedes), and three withdrawn (two Solos, one Mercedes).
Vale Travel have a sizeable fleet - 31 vehicles licensed, including nine double deck, plus eleven unlicensed or withdrawn.
As you say, it is perfectly clear that these operators continue to function.

Bus times has 2 08 plate solos for star travel both MX08 ex Cumfybus single door Solos (MX08 DHL and DHV)

 

[Bedford OB]

Bus times has 2 08 plate solos for star travel both MX08 ex Cumfybus single door Solos (MX08 DHL and DHV)

They will no doubt have been added subsequent to the preparation of the G list.

 

[duncombec]

As per G951, Star Travel have two vehicles licensed (one Solo, one Mercedes), and three withdrawn (two Solos, one Mercedes).
Vale Travel have a sizeable fleet - 31 vehicles licensed, including nine double deck, plus eleven unlicensed or withdrawn.
As you say, it is perfectly clear that these operators continue to function.

I appreciate the confirmation! I've also just remembered both operators are covered by LOTS, but they tend to only record certain vehicles (e.g. no coaches) for the 'regional' operators, so their numbers tend to be slightly skewed. I'm pleased to see that with the increase to £12 each the PSVC is going for larger books and not splitting as many counties*, but even so, I still tend to keep my purchases to those areas I follow most. (*Kent has moved from A-L and M-Z+non-PSV in series 7, to Major & Non PSV and Others in series 8, to one book in series 9... East and West Sussex are also now thankfully combined).

They will no doubt have been added subsequent to the preparation of the G list.

Or have been sold since! LOTS record both Solos, but their fleetbook is published in March, and DHL hasn't tracked since June 2024.

It is, of course, also the case that no two enthusiast societies or publishers will ever have the same vehicles at the same time, as a lot depend on what is reported to them, and when they are published. Nobody, but nobody, can claim to know the precise state of every vehicle at any one time!

 

[Andyh82]

It’s quite refreshing to see all this mention of PSV Circle G lists as the official source of truth

It often seems the new generation of enthusiasts coming up base their entire interest on what is shown on BusTimes

 

[Calpe]

Vale Travel are most definitely still in operation, not sure how many coaches they operate but certainly must be at least 5 or 6, along with several pairs of deckers including 2 x Volvo B7TL/ALX 400's, 2 x Enviro 400's, 2 x Dennis Trident/ELC and 2 x Volvo B7TL/ELC. There may be more that I am unaware of.

The Red Group companies are certainly all very closely related hence the regular internal transfer of vehicles between different operating companies.

Z&S I don't believe are connected to the Red Group in any way and are if anything are in direct competition with them. They would have the smartest fleet of the Aylesbury bus operators which all seem well maintained with good facilities.

 

[MKBE]

Does anyone know if Red Rose and Red Line use fleetnumbers. IIRC Red Rose used 50xxx numbers, but these seem to have been dropped. Also, I believe Red Line numbered buses from 1 upward. Can anyone help, please?

(Mod. Please re-open a previous thread if neccesary. Many thanks.)

They do use fleet numbers. The 50xxx numbers have been dropped on the buses but are still used internally.
Redline's fleet numbers from 1 upwards were just ticket machine numbers, Redline use 503xx numbers

 

[318266]

They do use fleet numbers. The 50xxx numbers have been dropped on the buses but are still used internally.
Redline's fleet numbers from 1 upwards were just ticket machine numbers, Redline use 503xx numbers

I beg to differ. I doubt, as Redline did, one would take a "ticket machine number" and make a decal to apply to the bus in question!

 

[MKBE]

I beg to differ. I doubt, as Redline did, one would take a "ticket machine number" and make a decal to apply to the bus in question!

Redline never applied the numbers that just went up from 1 thru 92? Unless we’re thinking of different systems, as there are many

 

[duncombec]

It’s quite refreshing to see all this mention of PSV Circle G lists as the official source of truth

It often seems the new generation of enthusiasts coming up base their entire interest on what is shown on BusTimes

In fairness, the internet (of which bustimes is just a part) offers a lot of "up to the minute" changes, which is a positive against the sometimes lengthy gaps between hardcopy information. The average cycle for G-Lists seems to be about 3 years, whilst the local organisations tend to be annually - that's certainly the case with the M&D and East Kent, LOTS and Southdown Enthusiasts. With the increasing pace of change nowadays - not one order a year, coaches delicensed for the winter, etc., a dynamic reference source can be helpful - especially as it's not always possible or plausible to be members of every local organisation that might cover your peripheral interests to update that annual fleetlist through a newsletter.

That said, there is value to the reliability of a printed source. We at MDEK have certainly found that whilst a lot of day-to-day knowledge is taken from Bustimes, Facebook, etc., a lot of credence is given to things we publish. To quote - as best as I can a year or more after it was said - one youthful member, "If the Bus Club publishes it, it has to be correct". In return, we discover various things that we wouldn't otherwise have done were it not for their appearance on "soshul meedja", especially from non-members or covering short-term issues. Our printed coverage would definitely be the poorer were it not for the dynamic source.

My reference to the G-Lists here was purely the chance that it was one of the most recent that the PSVC had published, so was going to be very up-to-date in regard to fleet size.

 

[Edvid]

The Redline Buses and Red Rose Travel URLs now redirect to a common website* - another Passenger creation, unsurprisingly. It lists both operators' buses / routes, sports a logo proclaiming both operators are part of the Red Group and also refers to "Red Group Buses Ltd", which I can't find on Companies House (existing entity Red Rose Travel Ltd is listed at the same postal address).

Meanwhile the Red Eagle website still looks like an abandoned turn-of-the-century hobby.

[* Unless you include the www subdomain in the RRT URL]

 

[capitalpotter]

The Redline Buses and Red Rose Travel URLs now redirect to a common website* - another Passenger creation, unsurprisingly. It lists both operators' buses / routes, sports a logo proclaiming both operators are part of the Red Group and also refers to "Red Group Buses Ltd", which I can't find on Companies House (existing entity Red Rose Travel Ltd is listed at the same postal address).

Meanwhile the Red Eagle website still looks like an abandoned turn-of-the-century hobby.

[* Unless you include the www subdomain in the RRT URL]

Makes you wonder why they don't all go under 1 brand. They'd have quite a presence imo it would look more professional

 

[Bletchleyite]

Makes you wonder why they don't all go under 1 brand. They'd have quite a presence imo it would look more professional

The issue is that they're all inter-related family businesses, so they don't always agree on stuff. If they did they'd probably work better as one business with each family having shares, but I think they fall out a bit much for that!

I have a feeling that might have been one of the two's existing website with a quick find/replace and a new domain on it? Hence ending up with Red Group Buses Ltd at the bottom when as stated above that isn't a company that exists.

 

[markymark2000]

I have a feeling that might have been one of the two's existing website with a quick find/replace and a new domain on it? Hence ending up with Red Group Buses Ltd at the bottom when as stated above that isn't a company that exists.

No, this is separate. The 2 old sites were 'MyTrip by Passenger'. The new site is full Passenger and comes with a lot more features.

The new site really is wasted on Red Group though as you can already see that there's many typos and bits of vague information, links to the old demo site. The 14 timetables don't work properly because both firms run the service (not sure if Passenger sites can handle multi operator routes on a single entry). They haven't added the route operator to each entry (See Oxford Bus Group and Cornwall Bus websites for examples) so how is anyone meant to know which brand runs their bus so they can contact the right firm. Tickets are a mess because both Redline and Red Rose are selling the same tickets but the validity is listed differently.... You get the idea.

Such a great time to have a really professional rebrand, and then the website is full of more holes than a sieve. Perhaps a bit longer before we see a professional Red Group. I wonder if I will see it in my lifetime.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps a bit longer before we see a professional Red Group.

I very much doubt it - given that they're all small family businesses they are unlikely to agree on enough for them to start looking as slick as the likes of Stagecoach, I'd say. They are probably all better than they used to be though - the number of times I complained to MK Council about the (Red Rose) 3E skipping parts of the route I suspect it happened every evening, I doubt they're that bad now.

 

[PeterC]

I very much doubt it - given that they're all small family businesses they are unlikely to agree on enough for them to start looking as slick as the likes of Stagecoach, I'd say. They are probably all better than they used to be though - the number of times I complained to MK Council about the (Red Rose) 3E skipping parts of the route I suspect it happened every evening, I doubt they're that bad now.

When they had the Chesham area locals the drivers were notorious for their cavalier attitude to the routes. The new 55 group of routes seem far more disciplined.