Red or White poppy

[burneside]

Why is it that you continually misinterpret what people say in order to misrepresent them? It's very manipulative.

The fact that they are a pacifist organisation does not preclude white poppies from being about remembering all those who died in war, and not just those who were in the armed forces. It was also not introduced by people "who think that if one side stops hostilities everybody else will". It's used in reaction to those who use the red poppy to glorify war, which is a total perversion of what it was created for.

I use a red poppy, but I entirely disassociate myself from those who have problems with those who wear white poppies, because they're invariably those who misuse the red poppy for jingoistic and violent purposes.

In what way are wearers of the red poppy violent?

 

[TheKnightWho]

In what way are wearers of the red poppy violent?

I didn't say that.

 

[burneside]

I didn't say that.

Reads that way to me. What did you mean?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Reads that way to me. What did you mean?

Red poppies are great, and I wear one myself.

Red poppies used as a way to glorify war and jingoism are a perversion of their proper use, and are awful. I have a problem with those wearers of red poppies who have problems with those that wear white poppies because they invariably turn out to be those who wear red poppies for the wrong reason.

If you care about remembering the dead, the way people do it is not high on the priority list.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Is it also to remember Daesh or are they neither civilians or soldiers ?
At my daughters school this exact question was asked last year and the answer was not surprisingly yes.

And your point is?

War results in atrocities, perpetrated by the military and inflicted upon civilians. Why only remember British military casualties?

 

[Railops]

And your point is?

War results in atrocities, perpetrated by the military and inflicted upon civilians. Why only remember British military casualties?

You personally would wear a white poppy to remember Daesh that is your point I take it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You personally would wear a white poppy to remember Daesh that is your point I take it.

I don't wear a poppy.

When I want to remember the dead I can do so without a piece of plastic and paper on my lapel. Equally there are many who wear said plastic and paper without a single thought for any dead. They do it out of routine and to avoid being criticised, much as they wear branded clothing rather than own label to simply be part of the crowd and not stand out.

I would wear a white poppy to remember all casualties of all wars, on both sides and howsoever caused. Recent or historic. Declared, terrorist or Guerrilla. Claimed in the cause of Christianity, Islam, Communist or whomever.

A human life lost is a human life lost.

Isil / Isis / Daesh clearly have some very evil minded people in their midst but are they any worse than things done in your name by the British Army in WWI or WWII or more recently. Look back at what most conquering armies have done to their opponents, and their civilian populations, throughout history.

 

[Railops]

Isil / Isis / Daesh clearly have some very evil minded people in their midst but are they any worse that things done in your name by the British Army in WWI or WWII or more recently.

Wow ! just wow, as you say the British army has committed atrocities "recently" that are just as bad as Daesh you can supply proof.
I haven't heard of any of our troops "recently" cutting off heads, raping children, sawing people in half, drowning people in acid etc. you must have done so let's have the evidence.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Wow ! just wow, as you say the British army has committed atrocities "recently" that are just as bad as Daesh you can supply proof.
I haven't heard of any of our troops "recently" cutting off heads, raping children, sawing people in half, drowning people in acid etc. you must have done so let's have the evidence.

You mustn't be listening very carefully then. Carpet bombing and firestorms, chemical weapons, shooting unarmed civilians, bombing hospitals, bombing refugee camps, strafing columns of refugees, torture of prisoners. How long a list do you want? Dates and times and names?

Perhaps you mean organised atrocities by Deash and filmed for publicity purposes rather than informal atrocities done on the quiet by others?

 

[Railops]

You mustn't be listening very carefully then. Carpet bombing and firestorms, chemical weapons, shooting unarmed civilians, bombing hospitals, bombing refugee camps, strafing columns of refugees, torture of prisoners. How long a list do you want? Dates and times and names?

Perhaps you mean organised atrocities by Deash and filmed for publicity purposes rather than informal atrocities done on the quiet by others?

So the "recently" tag all covers these does it. I don't care if every single poster on this forum agrees with your unbelievable and frankly laughable assertion.
I cannot and will not equate our troops with Daesh and I imagine you would only find a similar view in UK Jihadists, anarchists and looney left liberals so you're in good company.
You said that British servicemen have "recently" been just as bad as Daesh. Taking "recently" as the last 50 yrs could you provide a list of all the war crimes British servicemen have been convicted of in that time, must be one hell of a long list to be on par with Daesh ?
I can just see you now standing on the roadside shouting "terrorist murderers" at a veterans parade.

Your twisted view that the British army is just as bad as one of the worlds most evil terrorist organisations shows you up as a person who I would never wish to meet.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You personally would wear a white poppy to remember Daesh that is your point I take it.

Do you have a problem with people in this country wearing a white poppy for reasons other than to remember Daesh?

 

[Barn]

I wear a red poppy. I do so because I am profoundly grateful to those who died in order to prevent the imposition of a society which dictates which symbols a person should wear.

 

[AlterEgo]

You said that British servicemen have "recently" been just as bad as Daesh. Taking "recently" as the last 50 yrs could you provide a list of all the war crimes British servicemen have been convicted of in that time, must be one hell of a long list to be on par with Daesh ?

Firstly, I utterly repudiate the suggestion that the British Army are "as bad as Daesh".

Daesh have a deliberate strategy of committing atrocities - it is their raison d'etre, a cornerstone of their strategy. So, perhaps some common ground we can share there.

It's interesting that you specify "convicted". You don't seem to be aware that, in Northern Ireland at least, many atrocities (which I stress, for the record, were for the most part, individual acts and NOT part of some deliberate strategy) were perpetrated by police officers and soldiers, but which were not investigated properly for a multitude of reasons.

It is unfortunate that such an unpleasant debate occurs again around poppies.

I do not wear any sort of poppy but I recognise and encourage the right of anyone to wear whatever they like and to think about conflict and human cost at any time they feel appropriate.

 

[Railops]

Firstly, I utterly repudiate the suggestion that the British Army are "as bad as Daesh".

Daesh have a deliberate strategy of committing atrocities - it is their raison d'etre, a cornerstone of their strategy. So, perhaps some common ground we can share there.

It's interesting that you specify "convicted". You don't seem to be aware that, in Northern Ireland at least, many atrocities (which I stress, for the record, were for the most part, individual acts and NOT part of some deliberate strategy) were perpetrated by police officers and soldiers, but which were not investigated properly for a multitude of reasons.

It is unfortunate that such an unpleasant debate occurs again around poppies.

I do not wear any sort of poppy but I recognise and encourage the right of anyone to wear whatever they like and to think about conflict and human cost at any time they feel appropriate.

I agree about N.I but firstly whatever might have happened isn't in the same league as Daesh and secondly you can only take into account convictions not hearsay and accusations.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree about N.I but firstly whatever might have happened isn't in the same league as Daesh and secondly you can only take into account convictions not hearsay and accusations.

I agree, partly.

British Army atrocities were very rarely the product of a central government or command giving a direct order to e.g. shoot civilians. The same cannot be said of Daesh. In fact, if Daesh found you, you'd be lucky to be just shot.

As you only want to take into account convictions, would it not be fair to apply the same slide-rule test to Daesh?

How many Daesh/ISIS fighters have been convicted by a court? Perhaps you might come back with "well where they are, there isn't an effective state with a proper justice system", in which case I'd ask you to look again at Northern Ireland, 1969-1998...

Killing is still killing though, no matter how it's done or who does it.

 

[Railops]

As you only want to take into account convictions, would it not be fair to apply the same slide-rule test to Daesh?

How many Daesh/ISIS fighters have been convicted by a court? Perhaps you might come back with "well where they are, there isn't an effective state with a proper justice system", in which case I'd ask you to look again at Northern Ireland, 1969-1998...

Killing is still killing though, no matter how it's done or who does it.

That's a good one re convictions and you have a point but even if every single accusation of criminality by British servicemen was true it hardly is up there with daily filmed mass executions.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't wear a poppy.

When I want to remember the dead I can do so without a piece of plastic and paper on my lapel. Equally there are many who wear said plastic and paper without a single thought for any dead. They do it out of routine and to avoid being criticised, much as they wear branded clothing rather than own label to simply be part of the crowd and not stand out.

I would wear a white poppy to remember all casualties of all wars, on both sides and howsoever caused. Recent or historic. Declared, terrorist or Guerrilla. Claimed in the cause of Christianity, Islam, Communist or whomever.

A human life lost is a human life lost.

Isil / Isis / Daesh clearly have some very evil minded people in their midst but are they any worse than things done in your name by the British Army in WWI or WWII or more recently. Look back at what most conquering armies have done to their opponents, and their civilian populations, throughout history.

You can not, seriously, be trying to compare the antics of IS/Dash/ISIL/Islamonutjobs with the behaviour of professional military people.

Could you please point me to a list of the atrocities carried out by the British Army in the last 10/20/30 years? I must have missed those reports of the army herding 600 men into the desert, shooting them in the back of the head and dumping their bodies in a ditch. :roll:

You seem quite happy to remember people who behead captives, burn people alive, torture people, shoot children for failing to convert to Isalm, torture women for breastfeeding, ethnically cleanse the Yazidi people, crucify men, women and children, sell women into the sex trade etc etc. BTW they are all things that have happened within the last 3 years not within the last 300 that you seem to want to consider.

I can not actually believe you would, in honesty, suggest they are worthy of remembrance. It is perverse.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You personally would wear a white poppy to remember Daesh that is your point I take it.

Stop being manipulative. I've noticed it's a theme with certain sniping far-right posters such as yourself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree about N.I but firstly whatever might have happened isn't in the same league as Daesh and secondly you can only take into account convictions not hearsay and accusations.

Should we not remember the German or Soviet fallen because of the rape of Belgium and Germany in WW1 and WW2 respectively?

Should we not remember British soldiers who committed war crimes?

 

[GatwickDepress]

The only people in DAESH worthy of remembrance are those forcibly indoctrinated to follow their corrupted Muslim ideology; some of the right-wing press take pleasure in those schoolgirls who left to join DAESH being raped and killed. I don't. I feel sorry for them.

But the innocent civilian men and women forced to endure constant and horrific abuses, and any child unfortunate to be born under their heel... those are people we should also be remembering.

I used to wear a white poppy but now I don't bother to wear one; either red or white. The number of "poppy fascists" who assumed I didn't wear a red poppy because of my faith and that I hated my country/the armed forces/etc ultimately just depressed me. Even though still donate to the British Legion and related charities and used to sell poppies when i was in the ACF.

 

[Harbornite]

I've bought red poppies before but not white ones, I don't recall seeing any on sale.

It goes without saying that some British servicemen have committed what could be defined as war crimes in the past, but by and large, the British armed forces have a pretty good legacy with regards to not committing war crimes and comparing them to ISIL is just silly. If you seriously think that they are as bad as each other then do some research.

 

[CarltonA]

I'm an ex-serviceman and I usually get a red poppy each year. I don't have a problem with other colours of poppies or no poppy at all. I regret all death and suffering though war or otherwise, including those who were my sworn enemies at the time.

 

[bb21]

If people are going to be twisting others' words then this thread will be locked. This is understandably an emotional topic for many, so please discuss like adults. You can still respect the views of others even if you disagree and wish to challenge them. That would be appreciated.

 

[fowler9]

I wear a red poppy just because it is what I have always done, to remember all of the fallen in all wars. As for Daesh, ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc. they may not exist if it wasn't for British and other countries colonialism and the atrocities and drawing up of borders we and others in the "civilised world" did. This country makes a fortune selling weapons to and interfering with questionable regimes. Peace. Why do they always send the poor?

 

[bb21]

I wear a red poppy just because it is what I have always done, to remember all of the fallen in all wars. As for Daesh, ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc. they may not exist if it wasn't for British and other countries colonialism and the atrocities and drawing up of borders we and others in the "civilised world" did. This country makes a fortune selling weapons to and interfering with questionable regimes. Peace. Why do they always send the poor?

Quite. All these issues are intermingled which is why there is such a wide range of views depending on one's perspective. There are plenty of "what ifs" and "what nots" anyone can draw any conclusion to suit whatever they want to hail that day by making favourable assumptions in their own arguments.

Meanwhile most people just want to show some respect in one way or another without getting into frankly silly arguments.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

I do not wear a poppy.
The more the "poppy fascists" try to make it compulsary the less likely I am to either. Can't wait for this years farce.

Barbara Windsor Foxtrot Oscar. :mad:

 

[backontrack]

And your point is?

War results in atrocities, perpetrated by the military and inflicted upon civilians. Why only remember British military casualties?

You personally would wear a white poppy to remember Daesh that is your point I take it.

HEADDESK (fig. 1 head up, fig 2. head against desk

Seriously? That's the best you can come up with?

Wearing a white poppy does not mean this. It does not condone violence from any party. It is firmly against any violence, not about blaming different parties from it. It is simply and explicitly against all violence. That's the whole point.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Winchester City will be wearing poppies on their shirts when they play Yate on 12th November.

 

[DarloRich]

I do not wear a poppy.
The more the "poppy fascists" try to make it compulsary the less likely I am to either. Can't wait for this years farce.

Barbara Windsor Foxtrot Oscar. :mad:

what "farce"? I don't understand what that means. Can you explain?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So the "recently" tag all covers these does it. I don't care if every single poster on this forum agrees with your unbelievable and frankly laughable assertion.
I cannot and will not equate our troops with Daesh and I imagine you would only find a similar view in UK Jihadists, anarchists and looney left liberals so you're in good company.
You said that British servicemen have "recently" been just as bad as Daesh. Taking "recently" as the last 50 yrs could you provide a list of all the war crimes British servicemen have been convicted of in that time, must be one hell of a long list to be on par with Daesh ?
I can just see you now standing on the roadside shouting "terrorist murderers" at a veterans parade.

Your twisted view that the British army is just as bad as one of the worlds most evil terrorist organisations shows you up as a person who I would never wish to meet.

You need help. Seek it urgently.

Do you have a scale of atrocities so that I can compare Daesh with others? One beheading equals how many civilians killed in an air raid shelter? 10, 100, 1000?

I said ‘more recently’ not ‘recently’, as in, conflicts that have occurred since the end of WWII, rather than necessarily last week.

I didn’t equate the British Army with Daesh. As a correction I meant Britsh / Allied / Coalition forces rather than specifically the army.

The world is not black and white. All muslims, not even all fundamentalist muslims, are psycho nutjobs. Not all of the opposition are as pure as the driven snow. Syrian government forces are currently fighting Daesh. Is one good, and one evil? Are the Syrian forces good and wholesome and pure simply because they are fighting ISIS regardless of their behaviour?

The Taliban were our enemy, then our friends, then our enemy again. At what point were they good people ‘fighting the good fight’ and when were they evil, despite behaving in much the same way for hundreds of years?

Saddam Hussein was our friend and we poured money and support into the country, then he was our enemy so we went into (an illegal?) war to remove him?

Yesterday the Saudis beheaded a prince, are they better or worse than Daesh? Better simply because a judical process has been followed so that makes taking another persons life legitimate?

I repeat:
I would wear a white poppy to remember all casualties of all wars, on both sides and howsoever caused. Recent or historic. Declared, terrorist or Guerrilla. Claimed in the cause of Christianity, Islam, Communist or whomever.

A human life lost is a human life lost.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should not remember the many millions of dead enemy forces, and all civilians on any (or no) side, simply because at the present time, there are some spectacularly evil people amongst them?

 

[Steveman]

Isil / Isis / Daesh clearly have some very evil minded people in their midst but are they any worse than things done in your name by the British Army in WWI or WWII or more recently. Look back at what most conquering armies have done to their opponents, and their civilian populations, throughout history.

You wrote this yesterday, anything you say afterwards is irrelevant despite your backtracking, I was going to post something yesterday but I assumed you'd possibly have a rethink.
Your views which are very extreme will only be popular with ISIS supporters but if you want to hold them that's up to you.
To say British troops are comparable to ISIS is disgusting in my opinion but no doubt the usual suspects will agree with you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can not, seriously, be trying to compare the antics of IS/Dash/ISIL/Islamonutjobs with the behaviour of professional military people.

Could you please point me to a list of the atrocities carried out by the British Army in the last 10/20/30 years? I must have missed those reports of the army herding 600 men into the desert, shooting them in the back of the head and dumping their bodies in a ditch. :roll:

You seem quite happy to remember people who behead captives, burn people alive, torture people, shoot children for failing to convert to Isalm, torture women for breastfeeding, ethnically cleanse the Yazidi people, crucify men, women and children, sell women into the sex trade etc etc. BTW they are all things that have happened within the last 3 years not within the last 300 that you seem to want to consider.

I can not actually believe you would, in honesty, suggest they are worthy of remembrance. It is perverse.

Good post.