Red hand lamps/batons

[43303_43058]

Does anyone know what the red aspect in a hand lamp/on a baton means?

 

[mcmad]

Stop?

 

[43303_43058]

Ahh… that makes sense

 

[TheEdge]

Anything that's red on the railway is always stop.

Which makes super bright cycle tail lamps on a dark platform a fun experience.

 

[Watershed]

Anything that's red on the railway is always stop.

Which makes super bright cycle tail lamps on a dark platform a fun experience.

Red in combination with something else can mean go though - you're allowed to pass red signals at caution if the "cats eyes" are illuminated, e.g. for a shunt move or permissive working (attaching/double docking).

Similarly, some old shunt signals keep the bottom right aspect red when they clear, just having the one white aspect, rather than two as happens on new installations.

 

[Tomnick]

Similarly, some old shunt signals keep the bottom right aspect red when they clear, just having the one white aspect, rather than two as happens on new ininstallations.

Are you thinking of those with a white, not red, "pivot" lamp - i.e. a red/white horizontal 'on' indication and a white/white diagonal 'off' indication?

 

[TheEdge]

Red in combination with something else can mean go though - you're allowed to pass red signals at caution if the "cats eyes" are illuminated, e.g. for a shunt move or permissive working (attaching/double docking).

Similarly, some old shunt signals keep the bottom right aspect red when they clear, just having the one white aspect, rather than two as happens on new installations.

Erm, no. Passing a signal showing a subsidiary aspect is NOT passing a red signal at caution, it's passing a proceed signal showing a proceed aspect.

I'd agree with @Tomnick about the shunt signals, there are red/white shunt signals that clear to white/white, although they are few and far between now. Can't think of a red/white proceed aspect.

 

[edwin_m]

Erm, no. Passing a signal showing a subsidiary aspect is NOT passing a red signal at caution, it's passing a proceed signal showing a proceed aspect.

I'd agree with @Tomnick about the shunt signals, there are red/white shunt signals that clear to white/white, although they are few and far between now. Can't think of a red/white proceed aspect.

I also don't believe there ever was a red/white proceed aspect in a shunt signal. Originally they just had three white lights but at some stage (many years ago) the one that was lit only for danger was changed to a red one. More recently the pivot light (which is always illuminated) was changed to a bi-colour light.

 

[tpjm]

Red in combination with something else can mean go though

Not sure I agree with this statement. A Position Light showing a proceed aspect (two whites at a diagonal) authorises the driver to proceed, the main aspect to which it accompanies is not relevant. It is not 'authorising' the passing of a danger aspect, whether at caution or not.

 

[Deltafoxtrot87]

Not sure I agree with this statement. A Position Light showing a proceed aspect (two whites at a diagonal) authorises the driver to proceed, the main aspect that it accommanies is not relevant. It is not 'authorising' the passing of a danger aspect, whether at caution or not.

Could you technically say you aren't passing a signal at danger?

 

[Watershed]

Not sure I agree with this statement. A Position Light showing a proceed aspect (two whites at a diagonal) authorises the driver to proceed, the main aspect that it accommanies is not relevant. It is not 'authorising' the passing of a danger aspect, whether at caution or not.

That's a matter of semantics. It's still red in combination with something else; I was refuting the claim that red is "always" stop.

 

[TheEdge]

Could you technically say you aren't passing a signal at danger?

No, because the signal isn't at danger, its showing a proceed aspect.

 

[tpjm]

Could you technically say you aren't passing a signal at danger?

If there is a main aspect signal and a position light together, as long as one of them is in the off position, you have not passed a signal at danger.

That's a matter of semantics. It's still red in combination with something else; I was refuting the claim that red is "always" stop.

Your argument is void. Find another example where red does not mean stop.

 

[Watershed]

Your argument is void. Find another example where red does not mean stop.

Goodness me, some people do get worked up over this kind of stuff! It's not as if anyone will be learning their rules from a forum

 

[ComUtoR]

Your argument is void. Find another example where red does not mean stop.

Does it have to be a red light ?

 

[Dunnideer]

Your argument is void. Find another example where red does not mean stop.

How about when it means ‘create brake-pipe pressure’?



Image from Rule Book module SS2 showing shunter giving ‘create brake-pipe pressure’ handsignal, which in darkness is a red lamp raised up and down.

 

[tpjm]

The question was raised about hand lamps, but I think we could broaden the discussion to “signals”, thus including flags and of course, static reflective signs.

 

[philthetube]

Your argument is void. Find another example where red does not mean stop.

points settings on Blackpool trams, always freaks me to see a tram pass a red.

 

[341o2]

The old Bardic lamps from BR days could be used as an emergency tail light

 

[Taunton]

In the USA, where you can have multiple masts on a bracketed signal, each with two or more searchlight signals, although the usage is completely different to Britain, the whole lot can be showing reds, apart from one yellow or green, so on you go, sometimes at full speed. Not dissimilar to a traditional British semaphore gantry at night, that's all reds as well apart from one green which is hopefully yours.

 

[skyhigh]

The old Bardic lamps from BR days could be used as an emergency tail light

They still can be.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not sure I agree with this statement. A Position Light showing a proceed aspect (two whites at a diagonal) authorises the driver to proceed, the main aspect to which it accompanies is not relevant. It is not 'authorising' the passing of a danger aspect, whether at caution or not.

The main aspect is relevant. It indicates the section ahead may be occupied. You can only proceed as far as the shunt signal allows

 

[ExRes]

I saw plenty of times when a red light was passed with great speed around the back of Kings Cross Station .........

 

[Ashley Hill]

Didn’t the LMS speed signalling at Mirfield have reds that could be passed when used in combination with yellows or green?

 

[Railsigns]

Anything that's red on the railway is always stop.

A red semaphore signal arm inclined at 45 degrees is an unequivocal "proceed" indication.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Anything that's red on the railway is always stop.

Or a NSE lamp post

 

[Stigy]

The main aspect is relevant. It indicates the section ahead may be occupied. You can only proceed as far as the shunt signal allows

A GPL alone also means the same thing generally speaking. If proceeding on an associated position light you’re proceeding the same as you would with the authority of any other GPL. The main aspect being red doesn’t really tell us anything new.

 

[tpjm]

The main aspect is relevant. It indicates the section ahead may be occupied. You can only proceed as far as the shunt signal allows

I fully understand what both signals mean. I was explicitly highlighting that the earlier post, which stated that the main aspect being red didn’t mean stop, was wrong, as it misunderstood the relationship between the main aspect and PL.

 

[Trog]

Did there not used to be a rule where a signalman having brought a train to a stand at his box so he could speak to the driver. Who then also needed to speak to the guard in his van, was supposed authorise the driver to move forward by the train length with the red flag or lamp he had directed the driver to stop with. Presumably the unusual red means go indication being intended to reinforce the message that the permission to proceed was of a very limited nature.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Didn’t the LMS speed signalling at Mirfield have reds that could be passed when used in combination with yellows or green?

Found this on the Signal Box website. Drivers must have had to know their stuff. So many combinations of red,yellow and green.