Red arrows and Hawk T1 Aircraft

[martin butler]

I'm sure everyone knows of and at some times have seen the Red Arrows displays, but what's not widely known, or realised is that the aircraft they fly, is now coming towards the end of its service life It was hoped that the newer, updated Hark T2 would become the standard advanced trainer, and that the reds would use this version,

But there's a problem, with the T2, it's plagued with problems, and very few are actually airworthy, it's not deemed reliable as a replacement
The costs to keep aging airframes serviceable on the Red Arrows Hawks, is getting more expensive year on year.

There are discussions to find another aircraft, to replace both the T1, and T2 model Hawks, but so far nothing decided,
so do the RAF disband the Arrow's or possibly fly using another, possibly non-UK plane but there are talk of a joint Anglo-French new trainer.

 

[pug1]

I'm sure everyone knows of and at some times have seen the Red Arrows displays, but what's not widely known, or realised is that the aircraft they fly, is now coming towards the end of its service life It was hoped that the newer, updated Hark T2 would become the standard advanced trainer, and that the reds would use this version,

But there's a problem, with the T2, it's plagued with problems, and very few are actually airworthy, it's not deemed reliable as a replacement
The costs to keep aging airframes serviceable on the Red Arrows Hawks, is getting more expensive year on year.

There are discussions to find another aircraft, to replace both the T1, and T2 model Hawks, but so far nothing decided,
so do the RAF disband the Arrow's or possibly fly using another, possibly non-UK plane but there are talk of a joint Anglo-French new trainer.

Seems a bit pointless having them now. The justification was always about promoting British industry so I guess if there’s an Anglo-French solution it might be tenuous enough to maintain the squadron.

There are now only 130 fast jets in the front line RAF inventory at this moment, with an additional 28 hawk T2s, 13 T1s are assigned to the Red Arrows but some will be used for rotational purposes. So a fairly high proportion of the RAFs fast jet fleet is dedicated to a display team. Seems a bit disproportionate to me. It would be a tough decision for whoever sanctions the ending of the Red Arrows, but at the moment I can’t see them lasting the next ten years, certainly not in their current form.

 

[Acey]

I personally think a role demo using two Typhoons would be a dynamic way to show the public what the RAF are capable of and where the money goes ! The Austrians done it a few years back to great acclaim !

 

[pug1]

I personally think a role demo using two Typhoons would be a dynamic way to show the public what the RAF are capable of and where the money goes ! The Austrians done it a few years back to great acclaim !

Possibly. There is already a Typhoon display team that rotate annually I believe over and above their day job. There are similar display teams on other front line types too. The difference with the Reds is that they are an actual squadron with the sole purpose of providing air displays, promoting the RAF and apparently promoting U.K. industry. Seems to be a huge cost with a reducing ROI and is undoubtedly going to be up for the chopping block sooner or later.

They only fairly recently relocated from RAF Scampton where they basically had the airfield to themselves! The RAF value their heritage (nothing wrong with that) and I think keeping Scampton going for as long as they did was offered more than just strategic value. I expect it would be the MOD who had to make the final say in any future Strategic Defence Review. Obviously I hope they stick around but the way things are going it just seems less likely as time goes on.

 

[HSTEd]

I believe during the Cold War the display team did have an actual mobilisation role, alongside the rest of the trainer force.
This role was abandoned in the early 1990s as part of the peace dividend.

If a display team is to be maintained it would probably have to be of a combat aircraft type, so that those pilots could actually undertake operations as required.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I personally think a role demo using two Typhoons

There’s a Typhoon display team operating out of RAF Coningsby, which is also where the other historic aircraft are based.

Obviously I hope they stick around but the way things are going it just seems less likely as time goes on.

I can’t see any politician being brave enough to bin off the Red Arrows. There’s a reason why just about every air force has an aerobatics display team.

The French and Italian aerobatics jets are now of a similar vintage to the Hawk so there will be replacements being developed. But there will always be a need for trainer jets.

 

[Acey]

There’s a Typhoon display team operating out of RAF Coningsby, which is also where the other historic aircraft are based.


I can’t see any politician being brave enough to bin off the Red Arrows. There’s a reason why just about every air force has an aerobatics display team.

The French and Italian aerobatics jets are now of a similar vintage to the Hawk so there will be replacements being developed. But there will always be a need for trainer jets.

Yes I know the RAF have the single Typhoon display and have done for many years but I meant a dedicated two ship demo/role display ,the same format was used to great effect by ,for example ,the French Couteau Delta Mirage pair and the aforementioned Austrian Typhoon pair (and others) A pair of afterburning jets certainly are a bit more inspiring ( in my opinion ) than the Reds(as good as they are )
The RAF already have to allocate a pilot for the single ship display ,it would be cheaper in manpower at least and of course there are already many pilots current with the Typhoon so could easily slip back into a combat role if required ! Of course the Typhoon is part made in he UK so there is still some national pride !

 

[pug1]

There’s a Typhoon display team operating out of RAF Coningsby, which is also where the other historic aircraft are based.


I can’t see any politician being brave enough to bin off the Red Arrows. There’s a reason why just about every air force has an aerobatics display team.

The French and Italian aerobatics jets are now of a similar vintage to the Hawk so there will be replacements being developed. But there will always be a need for trainer jets.

I’m not suggesting they’ll not have an aerobatics display team of sorts, but when the RAF is squeezed and in some ways smaller on numbers than their French and Italian counterparts it kind of provides the answer. I’m pretty sure that those air forces will have to look at whether they are providing value for money when those aircraft types are retired.

Going back 60 years or so ago the RAF had a number of aerobatic display teams. I can think of the Black Arrows, The Pelicans, Yellowjacks, Blue Diamonds and I’m sure many others. They of course were wrapped up/amalgamated as the number of air force units diminished.

There will of course be training jets for as long as they have pilots in the seats. But that’s not to say that the Red Arrows are an effective promotional tool for the modern RAF, so whatever happens I can imagine the future of the RAF display team will look a lot different to the present setup.

 

[martin butler]

The possible contender for the replacement , Sorry, but I can't remember its name, actually involves former BAE designers I believe , and is being considered by the French Airforce also, which for them is a bit of a first, especially when you think, the modern Armie de L'air normally only fly french designs, and Has a lot of stock Hawk components, and looks to have more than a family resemblance

 

[pug1]

The possible contender for the replacement , Sorry, but I can't remember its name, actually involves former BAE designers I believe , and is being considered by the French Airforce also, which for them is a bit of a first, especially when you think, the modern Armie de L'air normally only fly french designs, and Has a lot of stock Hawk components, and looks to have more than a family resemblance

The contenders at the moment seem to be Aeralis who are a British company and a Boeing/Saab setup called T-7 Redhawk, but this may be less likely due to possible issues with the aircraft being built in the U.K. under licence.

There are sometimes strange political motivations when it comes to orders. I remember my local BAe factors at Brough had a number of the PC9s flying around from the airfield with the possibility of an order for the RAF being built and test flown at Brough. I understand they were the best bit of kit for the basic fast jet training but the MOD actually went with the Tucano which was to be built on licence by Shorts in Belfast. Apparently political motivations there.

 

[JN114]

RAFAT have 16x T1As on strength:

XX177 202 219 221 232 239 242 278 295 310 311 319 321 322 323 and 325

All are around the 75% airframe lifetime in hours, give or take 10% either way.

There are then 15 ex- 100sqn and 208sqn T1s which the RAF have held onto as strategic spares for RAFAT; again all at around 75 +/-10% airframe lifetime:-

XX159 198 217 230 250 255 261 281 284 301 303 331 339 345 and 350

The conversion from T1 to RAFAT T1A spec isn’t difficult and is a path that has been trodden several times in the past decade or so. So the short term is secure.

At current usage rates that fleet of 31 jets would probably see the team into the early-mid 2030s; although display flying is more taxing and previous RAFAT jets have been retired at lower than full airframe lifetime hours.

I suspect the medium term option would be a new advanced jet trainer for the RAF to replace Hawk T2; then the 28 Hawk T2s become the new RAFAT fleet - provided Rolls Royce can fix the turbine cracking issue on the Adour 951s that keeps grounding T2s.

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

The biggest mistake is to close the production line of the Hawk in 2020. The hawk is the last british built military jet and now that they already closed the production line, it's hard to restart it again.

Ever since the de industrialisation by Thatcher's government in the 80s it has set the future for Britain's engineering industry by destroying the then complete production chain. Using rolling stock production as an example, back then we could do every stage of manufacturing from steel making to manufacturing crucial components like traction systems , but now we could barely assemble foreign designed and built components shipped from other countries. Heck, even Rolls Royce's production line in Germany is larger than that of the UK's and so it wouldn't come as a surprise the day finally came for the once mighty aerospace powerhouse of Great Britain to completely rely on foreign built fast jets.

 

[Ted633]

I think it’s unlikely the T2 will join the Red Arrows. Personally, whatever replaces the T2 (which maybe isn’t too far away given its poor serviceability record) will also replace the T1s of the Reds.

There are various rumours about what the next trainer will be. The Leonardo M346 seems to be well in the running, with rumours of a deal for local assembly (so they would sort of still be British)

Another rumour is the TAI Hurjet (we recently signed a MoU with Turkey for Typhoons)

 

[pug1]

I think it’s unlikely the T2 will join the Red Arrows. Personally, whatever replaces the T2 (which maybe isn’t too far away given its poor serviceability record) will also replace the T1s of the Reds.

There are various rumours about what the next trainer will be. The Leonardo M346 seems to be well in the running, with rumours of a deal for local assembly (so they would sort of still be British)

Another rumour is the TAI Hurjet (we recently signed a MoU with Turkey for Typhoons)

I still think with the likelihood of the replacement being a foreign aircraft that the Red Arrows may not be retained as a stage alone squadron after the retirement of the T1. Unless there is a decision to increase the size of the front line fleet then I can only see the role of the display team being absorbed into an active squadron. Maybe I’m being too pessimistic but funding will always be squeezed and if it became a choice for the MOD between retaining the Red Arrows or receiving more equipment for their front line squadrons I think we all know what they’d choose.

 

[TravelDream]

The biggest mistake is to close the production line of the Hawk in 2020. The hawk is the last british built military jet and now that they already closed the production line, it's hard to restart it again.

The problem with vanity projects is their cost. Especially for aircraft.
I know the T2 was developed with the fifth generation era in mind (the F-35 and the Typhoon's eventual replacement), but it just hasn't worked out.
What justification would there be for keeping open the production line?

In these financially constrained times when our military forces have been cut to the bone, the logical answer would be the Red Arrows should be disbanded. However, that would be rather politically unpalatable and the Red Arrows are still an important factor in brand Royal Air Force and brand UK.

Still I think it remains likely the Red Arrows will be downsized/ merged into an active front line squadron perhaps in the manner of the Typhoon display team.

the modern Armie de L'air

A prime example there how national pride reduces to operational capability of an air force due to the huge costs of indigenous design and build.

Though even the French realise their next generation fighter jet will need to be an international project due to the huge costs and complexity new generation aircraft have.