Reconnecting Lymm to National Rail

[Philip]

What would be the feasibility of a branch spur off the Mid-Cheshire line to Lymm, using the route of the old Timperley to Warrington Arpley line?

Lymm has poor public transport links to anywhere beyond Warrington and Altrincham (currently a bus), so I feel a new train service to Manchester would be popular and well used; it is a large and wealthy commuter village of Manchester and did have a rail service until the station was closed in the 60s/70s. The new spur would also pass Dunham Massey park so a station here would be well used too, for tourism reasons. Existing trains could either split at Altrincham (see below), or the new service could be utilized by the path initially intended for the second Mid Cheshire service to Greenbank, which hasn't been taken up.

The route between Dunham Massey and Lymm (and up to Latchford) is currently used as a public footpath, but it looks well intact with minimal major construction works needed to reopen the line along this stretch. Latchford Viaduct over the MSC would probably be an obstacle because of the cost of refurbishment, hence the idea for the reopened line to terminate at Lymm.

What is the state of the eastern end towards Skelton Junction like in respect of restoration? Perhaps a junction off the Mid Cheshire line just north of Ashley Station and then a new route before rejoining the course of the old around Dunham Town might be a better idea?

What are people's thoughts?

 

[KINSEY.]

I think there is a Retail park in the way (Broadheath)

 

[AlastairFraser]

What would be the feasibility of a branch spur off the Mid-Cheshire line to Lymm, using the route of the old Timperley to Warrington Arpley line?

Lymm has poor public transport links to anywhere beyond Warrington and Altrincham (currently a bus), so I feel a new train service to Manchester would be popular and well used; it is a large and wealthy commuter village of Manchester and did have a rail service until the station was closed in the 60s/70s. The new spur would also pass Dunham Massey park so a station here would be well used too, for tourism reasons. Existing trains could either split at Altrincham (see below), or the new service could be utilized by the path initially intended for the second Mid Cheshire service to Greenbank, which hasn't been taken up.

The route between Dunham Massey and Lymm (and up to Latchford) is currently used as a public footpath, but it looks well intact with minimal major construction works needed to reopen the line along this stretch. Latchford Viaduct over the MSC would probably be an obstacle because of the cost of refurbishment, hence the idea for the reopened line to terminate at Lymm.

What is the state of the eastern end towards Skelton Junction like in respect of restoration? Perhaps a junction off the Mid Cheshire line just north of Ashley Station and then a new route before rejoining the course of the old around Dunham Town might be a better idea?

What are people's thoughts?

I believe this section of the old Manchester to Liverpool via Dunham Massey and Lymm route is safeguarded for future use as part of HS3/NPR, so fat chance of that happening I'm afraid.

 

[The Planner]

You would likely trigger a resignalling if you started adding things around Ashley.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Knowing Lymm quite well, I should imagine it has a very high car-ownership level. Do both bus services 5 and Cat-5 serve the area still, that give links to both Altrincham and Warrington?

 

[Philip]

I think it is a bus to each of Warrington and Altrincham.

It is the removal of the rail service from places like Lymm, Market Drayton, Skelmersdale and Leigh (to use NW examples) which really the show the 1960s cutbacks at their worst; very shortsighted.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it is a bus to each of Warrington and Altrincham.

It is the removal of the rail service from places like Lymm, Market Drayton, Skelmersdale and Leigh (to use NW examples) which really the show the 1960s cutbacks at their worst; very shortsighted.

how long a go does a decision need to have been taken before it stops being “very shortsighted?”

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lymm is really in a very awkward context - it basically needed a railway just to serve Lymm, and it isn't very big and is prosperous so has high car ownership.

A bus to a Metrolink station is probably just about the only effective way to serve it. No real need for full timetable integration due to the very high frequency of Metrolink operations.

I'm slightly surprised there isn't a Warrington-Lymm-Partington-Sale-Manchester bus, but I suppose that would fall foul of Warrington being dominated by its municipal and that part of Manchester by First/Go Ahead. Though half of hte half-hourly Warrington-Lymm-Altrincham service does run via Partington as a bit of a diversion: https://www.warringtonsownbuses.co.uk/services/WBTR/CAT5

 

[Philip]

how long a go does a decision need to have been taken before it stops being “very shortsighted?”

No timeframe; the idea was that cars and road public trsnsport would be sufficient for towns that lost their rail service, but the traffic congestion and poor bus services these days are examples of the shortsightedness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No timeframe; the idea was that cars and road public trsnsport would be sufficient for towns that lost their rail service, but the traffic congestion and poor bus services these days are examples of the shortsightedness.

There is of course no particular reason why bus services have to be of poor quality nor poorly integrated (well, competition law does affect the latter, but doesn't really apply when you are connecting with a tramway operating ten trams per hour, as by definition there is a good connection). And indeed if you look at this one (the Cheshire Cat) it looks pretty good, other than the lack of evening services which I am sure could be subsidised at a far lower cost than operating a railway, less alone building one.

 

[The Planner]

No timeframe; the idea was that cars and road public trsnsport would be sufficient for towns that lost their rail service, but the traffic congestion and poor bus services these days are examples of the shortsightedness.

That is bonkers, how long should foresight be then? What are we doing now that is a good idea that we are going to regret in 60 years time?

 

[Bald Rick]

No timeframe; the idea was that cars and road public trsnsport would be sufficient for towns that lost their rail service, but the traffic congestion and poor bus services these days are examples of the shortsightedness.

in which case I think it was very shortsighted of the Romans not build roads to Birmingham and Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

in which case I think it was very shortsighted of the Romans not build roads to Birmingham and Manchester.

I thought there was a Roman road that served the area now called Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought there was a Roman road that served the area now called Manchester.

Indeed there was - we now call it the A6.

 

[Greybeard33]

Apart from schoolkids, the CAT5/5A bus carried only handfuls of passengers between Lymm and Altrincham even pre-pandemic. There used to be a competing commercial service (37) with a quicker route along the A56, but Warrington Coachways collapsed some years ago. From bus journeys I have made between Altrincham and Warrington, public transport demand from Lymm appears to be much more towards Warrington than towards Altrincham. Warrington bus station is adjacent to Warrington Central, which has fast rail services to Manchester and Liverpool, and the CAT5/5A also serves Bank Quay station for WCML connections.

Even if the ex-LNWR line from Skelton Junction to Lymm could be miraculously restored without the expense of demolishing the Broadheath retail park and rebuilding the canal and road bridges, there is no capacity for additional services through Stockport. Prior to closure of Lymm station in 1962, the infrequent service did not go to Stockport. It used to run between Warrington Bank Quay Low Level and Manchester Oxford Road, via a chord from Broadheath to what is now the Metrolink line just south of Timperley. Clearly there is no chance of restoring this route as heavy rail and Lymm is not large enough to warrant a Metrolink service.

IMO this idea is a complete non-starter.

 

[6Gman]

I think it is a bus to each of Warrington and Altrincham.

It is the removal of the rail service from places like Lymm, Market Drayton, Skelmersdale and Leigh (to use NW examples) which really the show the 1960s cutbacks at their worst; very shortsighted.

Lymm is a small town with very high car ownership. That it closed pre-Beeching suggests it was pretty poorly used.
Market Drayton is a small town with high car ownership. It was already being considered for closure pre-Beeching again suggesting it was little used.
Skelmersdale. Since the service was withdrawn in 1956 it's hardly a 1960s cutback. It was a lightly used service requiring a change of train for anywhere larger than Ormskirk.
Leigh. Possibly the strongest case (and worth noting it survived longer than any of the others) but the rather lengthy detour off the main line would have meant a significant time penalty for through journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Skelmersdale. Since the service was withdrawn in 1956 it's hardly a 1960s cutback. It was a lightly used service requiring a change of train for anywhere larger than Ormskirk.

Skelmersdale's service was lightly used because when it was withdrawn it was a tiny village, not a medium sized New Town. The case to reopen it with a direct service to Liverpool and Wigan now is rather different, and in my view is quite strong to the point that I do expect to see it within my lifetime.

Unfortunately it did fall down a bit of a gap - closure in 1956, the Commission for the New Towns (CNT) founded in 1959...

 

[daodao]

Just a few facts, as I am local to the area under discussion.

Lymm is a large and wealthy commuter village of Manchester and did have a rail service until the station was closed in the 60s/70s.

Lymm is really a small town, but its population was only 12,350 at the 2011 Census; its railway station closed in 1962 (pre-Beeching) and the services were not frequent. The Warrington-Lymm-Altrincham bus service (2 per hour Mon-Sat daytime, 1 per hour Sun daytime) is adequate, given the high car ownership in the area, and terminates at Altrincham bus station where there is easy interchange with rail/Metrolink services.

The new spur would also pass Dunham Massey park so a station here would be well used too, for tourism reasons.

The former Dunham Massey station (pictured in my moniker) was some distance (the best part of 1 mile) from the nearest entrance to Dunham Massey park (now a National Trust property). The bus service that passed the park has now been diverted to run via Sinderland, so I wouldn't envisage much demand for such a train service to serve it.

What is the state of the eastern end towards Skelton Junction like in respect of restoration? Perhaps a junction off the Mid Cheshire line just north of Ashley Station and then a new route before rejoining the course of the old around Dunham Town might be a better idea?

East of Sinderland crossing, the previous line has been subsumed under George Richards Way and nearby retail parks. There is no practical way the former line could be linked with the mid Cheshire line near Ashley station.

I thought there was a Roman road that served the area now called Manchester.

Many of the main roads into Manchester (originally a Brittonic/Latin settlement) were built along the line of old Roman Roads, including Stockport Road (A6), Hyde Road (A57), Bury New Road (A56) and Chester Road (A56), which further south-west formed the eastern boundary of Dunham Massey. The Roman Road from Chester to Ribchester via Manchester is the northern extension of Watling Street.

 

[Greybeard33]

The former Dunham Massey station (pictured in my moniker) was some distance (the best part of 1 mile) from the nearest entrance to Dunham Massey park (now a National Trust property). The bus service that passed the park has now been diverted to run via Sinderland, so I wouldn't envisage much demand for such a train service to serve it.

The CAT5 service was diverted away from Dunham Massey because Warrington's Own Buses introduced new vehicles that were too tall to fit under the canal bridge on Woodhouse Lane. From 24 April, TfGM is introducing a new subsidised bus service, 280, that will serve Dunham Massey village and park.

280 Altrincham – Dunham Massey – Partington – Carrington - Sale
Operator tbc
This new service will provide an hourly Monday to Saturday daytime service (0630-1830) replacing existing service 260 between Sale and Partington and reinstating a service via Dunham Massey village, passing Dunham Massey Hall.

There has been considerable concern raised about the loss of the service through Dunham Massey village and extensive engagement with stakeholders regarding options for its replacement. These proposals address the majority of these concerns.

Evening and Sunday facilities between Partington and Sale, and between Dunham Massey and Altrincham will continue to be available on Partington Local Link. While tenders were issued for a conventional bus service at these times, to mirror the daytime service, no bids were received due to the restriction imposed by the low bridge. Additional, Warrington CAT5 will provide a Sunday service from Warburton and Dunham Massey [village] (Rope & Anchor) into Altrincham via Broadheath.

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=18669

 

[daodao]

The CAT5 service was diverted away from Dunham Massey because Warrington's Own Buses introduced new vehicles that were too tall to fit under the canal bridge on Woodhouse Lane. From 24 April, TfGM is introducing a new subsidised bus service, 280, that will serve Dunham Massey village and park.

Thank you for this update. The link from Warburton via Dunham Massey/Town and Bowdon to Altrincham is restored Mon-Sat daytime by this new service 280. However, only 1 bus per hour (everyday, evenings excepted) on Warrington route 5 will now extend east from Lymm to Altrincham via Dunham Massey village and Sinderland. With respect to the topic of this thread, the consequence of this change means that the frequency of the connection between Lymm and Altrincham is reduced on Mon-Sat. There will also still be no bus service to Dunham Massey park on Sundays.

In the 1960s, the former North West Road Car Company purchased special buses for the Altrincham-Warrington route via Dunham to pass under the (then even smaller) canal bridge. A photo can be found at https://www.flickr.com/photos/gmts/32574542784/in/photostream/

 

[ian1944]

An academic point, as I think the chance of either is exactly nil, but Lymm would warrant a Metro extension more than a rail connection. The former could at least share road space through Broadheath ( pity the Broadheath bridge A56 crossing has gone, unlike the West Timperley one further north), but hardly warranting the 12 minute standard frequency.