Recent African American deaths

[TheNewNo2]

The moral of the story is, if talking to somebody pointing a gun at you, keep your hands in the air and visible at all times.

And how does that help when you're on the ground restrained and they still shoot you?


This is by no means a recent phenomenon. Black Lives Matter came out of the Ferguson incident, where a man was killed for walking in the road. But that was only one of a string of highly publicised killings of black men by police.

Eric Garner was selling cigarettes on the street. Police killed him using a chokehold. His last words were "I can't breathe".

Tamir Rice was a 12 year old killed while playing with a toy gun in a public park. The police had been on the scene for less than three seconds when he was shot.

Samuel Dubose was shot in the head after being stopped for having a missing number plate.

John Crawford III was shot in a Wal-Mart because he was holding an air rifle. You can buy guns in Wal-Mart.

Walter Scott was shot in the back eight times while running unarmed from police.

Laquan McDonald was shot sixteen times while walking down the middle of the road.



Then of course there are all the shootings by people other than police.

Renisha McBride's car broke down. She knocked on a resident's door to ask to use a phone. The house owner shot her in the head.

Jordan Davis was sitting in his car playing music. A man thought the music was too loud, so he shot at him and the others in the car, continuing shooting as the people tried to escape in the car.

And of course, Trayvon Martin, who was killed while walking through his father's neighbourhood, apparently looking suspicious and armed with a pack of Skittles.



America has a problem of racism, moreso than most. These shootings are not even very unusual, and it's worth wondering how many thousands of people were killed by police when there weren't any cameras around to capture it.

 

[mikeg]

In addition to race, there appear to be other factors too. For a start, the victims are all male, and under- or working-class. I suspect the result would be different for example if it was a black man dressed in a suit in the financial district of New York acting suspiciously. Or a black woman. But I agree race is a very strong factor, if just because of its visibility.

But before we start feeling smug, let's not forget that if our police were armed we'd probably have about a fifth of the number of incidents, if simply because of the proportions of black youths in America to here. Also I suspect a number of cops would automatically accuse a white working class youth of 'acting suspiciously', especially if dressed in some sort of fake Henleys top or trackies.

The issue is definitely racial, but there are other prejudices that make things about as bad as they can get for black Americans.

 

[AlterEgo]

But before we start feeling smug, let's not forget that if our police were armed we'd probably have about a fifth of the number of incidents, if simply because of the proportions of black youths in America to here.

Eh?? The race issue in the USA is based on entirely different and more longstanding grievances than race issues in this country. I think you fundamentally misunderstand the crux of the issue in America.

Also, a lot of the black people shot by police aren't "youths". Philandering Castile was 32. Alton Sterling was 37. And so on.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Eh?? The race issue in the USA is based on entirely different and more longstanding grievances than race issues in this country. I think you fundamentally misunderstand the crux of the issue in America.

Also, a lot of the black people shot by police aren't "youths". Philandering Castile was 32. Alton Sterling was 37. And so on.

That's a very unfortunate auto-correct there. It's hard to separate the issue under discussion here from the issue of guns in the United States- which is also why comparisons between here and there won't really teach us anything about the particular issue of black males suffering disproportionately from police brutality.

In terms of gun violence, one of the most harrowing things I've ever seen is the video for "Dirge" by Death in Vegas. No, not the one with old people dancing- this one:
https://youtu.be/oXHjo826R2k

 

[AlterEgo]

That's a very unfortunate auto-correct there.

It's made me laugh so I'm going to keep it. oops!

 

[TheNewNo2]

In addition to race, there appear to be other factors too. For a start, the victims are all male, and under- or working-class. I suspect the result would be different for example if it was a black man dressed in a suit in the financial district of New York acting suspiciously. Or a black woman. But I agree race is a very strong factor, if just because of its visibility.

Not all the victims have been male. Nor does looking like you belong there help - you drive a nice car, the police assume you stole it. Moreover, that is frankly insulting, like telling women not to wear nice dresses if they don't want to get raped. It's trying to avoid the idea that the perpetrator is responsible for the actions, things would have been avoided if only the victim had done this or done that...

The fact is that a black person is significantly more likely to be killed by police than a white person:

This is part of a general racist attitude in policing. Black and white people buy and sell illegal drugs at roughly the same rate, but black people are significantly more likely to be arrested for it:

In addition, in places such as Ferguson, where the Black Lives Matter movement got started following the death of Michael Brown, minority-majority neighbourhoods are significantly over-policed and under-represented. Ferguson was 67% black, but the mayor and police chief were white, as were five of the city councillors, the entire school board and 50 of the 53 police officers. Low-income black residents are effectively used as a pinata for fines and court fees, which make up a significant part of the local budget, so the more you can stop people for minor violations the better. Black residents were twice as likely to be stopped while driving, despite being less likely to be carrying contraband.

 

[Gutfright]

This is by no means a recent phenomenon. Black Lives Matter came out of the Ferguson incident, where a man was killed for walking in the road.

And of course, Trayvon Martin, who was killed while walking through his father's neighbourhood, apparently looking suspicious and armed with a pack of Skittles

You seem to be missing some important details.

Michael Brown robbed a store and pushed the clerk who tried to stop him aside. When the police officer sent to investigate pulled up near him, Brown reached into the police SUV and tried to grab the officers gun. Brown then fled, but was moving towards the officer when he was shot.

Trayvon Martin was beating up a Latino man who shot him in self-defence.

 

[TheNewNo2]

You seem to be missing some important details.

Michael Brown robbed a store and pushed the clerk who tried to stop him aside. When the police officer sent to investigate pulled up near him, Brown reached into the police SUV and tried to grab the officers gun. Brown then fled, but was moving towards the officer when he was shot.

Trayvon Martin was beating up a Latino man who shot him in self-defence.

Trayvon Martin was being followed by George Zimmerman, who used a number of slurs to describe him and was repeatedly told by police not to engage. While Zimmerman was acquitted of murder, it seems unlikely that he was not the aggressor.

As for Michael Brown, it seems you're right about that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You seem to be missing some important details.
(Snip)
Trayvon Martin was beating up a Latino man who shot him in self-defence.

Really? The killer of Trayvon Martin was George Zimmerman- that's not a particularly Hispanic-sounding name. I wonder when Bob Dylan is going to release an album of flamenco music...

I don't think anybody has tried to paint the victims of these shootings as angels, not even the Black Lives Matter* movement. Many of them were committing no crime at the time of their deaths though, and had they been Caucasian they'd probably still be alive.

*= when people say "it should be ALL lives matter" they miss the entire point of the movement. The phrase arose out of (among other things) the media's under-reporting of crimes where the victims were black. If a black child is abducted in the U.S. there's rarely any coverage but if a white child is snatched the news media go crazy. There's no White Lives Matter for the same reason there isn't a Straight Pride festival: society doesn't treat white people in a way that would make them need to protest, certainly not on the grounds of race/ethnicity. Likewise there are 365 Straight Pride days each year. The "All lives matter" nonsense is simply an attempt to avoid looking at the real issue, and an attempt to discredit the movement.

 

[Harbornite]

From the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36777582

"Black Lives do not matter to most black people...Only the lives that are taken at the hands of cops or white people, matter."

That is the conclusion of a strongly-worded post that has been shared more than 130,000 times on Facebook and has racked up hundreds of thousands of views on other media platforms such as Imgur.

While the sentiment is provocative, it is the identity of the author that triggered particular interest. Jay Stalien's profile indicates he is an active police officer in Florida and previously Baltimore. And he is black.

The post was published last weekend, amid mounting racial tensions across America following the murder of five Dallas officers at a protest held over the police killings of two African-American men in Minnesota and Louisiana. Stalien, who says he is a Brooklyn native, was particularly scathing about Black Lives Matter, questioning whether the lives of police officers (including ones who are African-American) were as important to the movement, as black civilians killed by white police officers.

"I couldn't help but wonder if it had been me, a black man, a black cop, on TV, assassinated, laying on the ground dead...would my friends and family still think black lives mattered? Would my life have mattered?" Stalien wrote.

While the official Black Lives Matter Twitter account published a post shortly after the Dallas killings, saying that it did not condone violence towards anybody, Stalien's post certainly resonated with a large portion of social media users - many of them supporters of the Blue Lives Matter movement.

support for Stalien's post
In his lengthy digital essay Stalien challenged assertions that black people are unfairly penalised by law enforcement. It was his arguments about black-on-black violence that seemed to get the most attention. Drawing on his own experience, Stalien said he chose a career in law enforcement because:

"I watched and lived through the crime that took place in the hood. My own black people killing others over nothing. Crack heads and heroin addicts lined the lobby of my building as I shuffled around them to make my way to our 1 bedroom apartment with 6 of us living inside. I wanted to help my community and stop watching the blood of African Americans spilled on the street at the hands of a fellow black man."

But Stalien expressed his frustration that his efforts to investigate black-on-black violence and bring the culprits to justice had met with outright hostility from the very community he sought to protect.

"They called me 'Uncle Tom', and 'wanna be white boy', and I couldn't understand why," he wrote.

"My own fellow black men and women attacking me, wishing for my death, wishing for the death of my family. I was so confused, so torn, I couldn't understand why my own black people would turn against me, when every time they called …I was there. Every time someone died….I was there. Every time they were going through one of the worst moments in their lives…I was there. So why was I the enemy?"

Stalien, said that in an attempt to answer that question he looked into some of the most common complaints levelled at police by activists, to see if there was a statistical basis for these grievances. Much of his article is taken up by a point-by point presentation of the results of that research, which Stalien uses to assert that many of the gripes of the Black Lives Matter movement are unfounded.

An interesting take on the black lives matter movement. However, this cannot be used to deny the racism that exists in the US, especially regarding the police force.
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Really? The killer of Trayvon Martin was George Zimmerman- that's not a particularly Hispanic-sounding name. I wonder when Bob Dylan is going to release an album of flamenco music...

I don't think anybody has tried to paint the victims of these shootings as angels, not even the Black Lives Matter* movement. Many of them were committing no crime at the time of their deaths though, and had they been Caucasian they'd probably still be alive.

*= when people say "it should be ALL lives matter" they miss the entire point of the movement. The phrase arose out of (among other things) the media's under-reporting of crimes where the victims were black. If a black child is abducted in the U.S. there's rarely any coverage but if a white child is snatched the news media go crazy. There's no White Lives Matter for the same reason there isn't a Straight Pride festival: society doesn't treat white people in a way that would make them need to protest, certainly not on the grounds of race/ethnicity. Likewise there are 365 Straight Pride days each year. The "All lives matter" nonsense is simply an attempt to avoid looking at the real issue, and an attempt to discredit the movement.

Indeed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really? The killer of Trayvon Martin was George Zimmerman- that's not a particularly Hispanic-sounding name. I wonder when Bob Dylan is going to release an album of flamenco music...

Since when does someone's surname determine their ethnicity? Zimmerman is German and Peruvian and identifies as Hispanic....