Rebuilding Dartford station

[bringbackcrouc]

How feasible / how much would the following cost?

Rebuilding Dartford station so that it has ten platforms.

2 x Crossrail extension to Ebbsfleet
2 x Woolwich / Greenwich Line (metro service terminating)
2 x Eltham line (metro service terminating)
2 x Sidcup line (metro service terminating)
2 x commuter through services, non stop to Lewisham and London Bridge

How big would it have to be? What would have to be demolished? Would it be worth it?

With best wishes,

JC

 

[FlippyFF]

Why cant some of those share platforms?

 

[Bald Rick]

Look at googlemaps and work it out for yourself. It would be at least half a billion quid.

 

[Esker-pades]

There is no space whatsoever. So, not very feasible.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is no space whatsoever. So, not very feasible.

You can make space. Buy property, demolish property, build station. It just costs money, lots of it.

 

[Esker-pades]

You can make space. Buy property, demolish property, build station. It just costs money, lots of it.

Land for new build stuff to the north and a car park to the south.

 

[Bald Rick]

Land for new build stuff to the north and a car park to the south.

A ten platform station - and the necessary approach tracks - would be huge. Think Birmingham New Street. To the north of Dartford is a road and a large Mill Pond. To the south is a car park and Dartford council, the either side where approach tracks woul go is housing to the east and a retail park to the west. The latter would cost the thick end of £100m to buy and relocate.

It’s all completely impractical.

 

[Esker-pades]

A ten platform station - and the necessary approach tracks - would be huge. Think Birmingham New Street. To the north of Dartford is a road and a large Mill Pond. To the south is a car park and Dartford council, the either side where approach tracks woul go is housing to the east and a retail park to the west. The latter would cost the thick end of £100m to buy and relocate.

It’s all completely impractical.

.Yep.

 

[MarkyT]

It’s all completely impractical.

And entirely unnecessary. Crossrail Gravesend extension safeguarding includes a widening of the alignment to the west and east of the station, presumably to allow additional tracks for more flexible throat junctions if required, but no general widening in the platform area itself, although it might be practical to provide one additional through or terminating platform on the town side if necessary under the existing footbridge although that would require work on replacement road access arrangements. If there was a notional bag or tree of money available to pay for a ten platform new station at Dartford then I would strongly recommend it should be spent on something much more worthwhile!

 

[bringbackcrouc]

Thanks for the replies.

Whilst I agree there are much more worthwhile projects elsewhere. From a purely selfish perspective, such a development of Dartford is probably necessary for the 12 trains an hour, 12 carriage service I want for my local station. Or would it be possible another way?

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for the replies.

Whilst I agree there are much more worthwhile projects elsewhere. From a purely selfish perspective, such a development of Dartford is probably necessary for the 12 trains an hour, 12 carriage service I want for my local station. Or would it be possible another way?

Earlsfield gets 16-18 trans a hour off 2 platforms. Just saying!

 

[Esker-pades]

Earlsfield gets 16-18 trans a hour off 2 platforms. Just saying!

Earlsfield is not a terminus or a junction. Dartford is very complicated, especially when one adds in all the loop services.

Thanks for the replies.

Whilst I agree there are much more worthwhile projects elsewhere. From a purely selfish perspective, such a development of Dartford is probably necessary for the 12 trains an hour, 12 carriage service I want for my local station. Or would it be possible another way?

Dartford gets 18tph off-peak (12tph to London, 6tph to Medway):
2tph to Charing Cross via Bexleyheath
2tph to Victoria via Bexleyheath
2tph to Charing Cross via Woolwich Arsenal & Lewisham
4tph to Charing Cross via Sidcup
2tph to Luton via Greenwich
4tph to Gravesend
2tph to Rainham

 

[Class465fan]

is it really necessary?

 

[greatkingrat]

Thanks for the replies.

Whilst I agree there are much more worthwhile projects elsewhere. From a purely selfish perspective, such a development of Dartford is probably necessary for the 12 trains an hour, 12 carriage service I want for my local station. Or would it be possible another way?

Even if you did create a 10 platform superstation at Dartford, you still have the problem of trying to find additional paths through London Bridge / Lewisham to actually run the additional services to fill the new platforms.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Earlsfield is not a terminus or a junction. Dartford is very complicated, especially when one adds in all the loop services.


Dartford gets 18tph off-peak (12tph to London, 6tph to Medway):
2tph to Charing Cross via Bexleyheath
2tph to Victoria via Bexleyheath
2tph to Charing Cross via Woolwich Arsenal & Lewisham
4tph to Charing Cross via Sidcup
2tph to Luton via Greenwich
4tph to Gravesend
2tph to Rainham

Pah!
Some of us are just old enough to remember the great Southern Region timetable of 1967 that ran 17 trains in a peak hour ‘upstream’ of Dartford and 7 downstream when there were only three platforms. These even included a non-stop run between London Bridge and Gravesend.
Even the standard off-peak hour had 12 TPH to London from those platforms. There was much more freight around in those days too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Earlsfield is not a terminus or a junction. Dartford is very complicated, especially when one adds in all the loop services.


Dartford gets 18tph off-peak (12tph to London, 6tph to Medway):
2tph to Charing Cross via Bexleyheath
2tph to Victoria via Bexleyheath
2tph to Charing Cross via Woolwich Arsenal & Lewisham
4tph to Charing Cross via Sidcup
2tph to Luton via Greenwich
4tph to Gravesend
2tph to Rainham

Surely what you have listed would normally be described as a 12 tph service, with 6 terminating and 6 through?

 

[Esker-pades]

Surely what you have listed would normally be described as a 12 tph service, with 6 terminating and 6 through?

Yes. I'm not sure why I described it as I did originally.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

How feasible / how much would the following cost?

Rebuilding Dartford station so that it has ten platforms.

2 x Crossrail extension to Ebbsfleet
2 x Woolwich / Greenwich Line (metro service terminating)
2 x Eltham line (metro service terminating)
2 x Sidcup line (metro service terminating)
2 x commuter through services, non stop to Lewisham and London Bridge

How big would it have to be? What would have to be demolished? Would it be worth it?

With best wishes,

JC

10 bloody platforms? What are you smoking? I’ll have some!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Even if you did create a 10 platform superstation at Dartford, you still have the problem of trying to find additional paths through London Bridge / Lewisham to actually run the additional services to fill the new platforms.

Not necessarily. You could just reroute trains so that every train on the Woolwich/Bexleyheath/Sidcup lines runs to Dartford, with no trains running on circular routes any more. That would give a huge frequency increase at Dartford without any more trains at all at the London end. I've long thought that would make for a far better timetable than the current arrangement, since the small number of people who currently do journeys like Belvedere-Sidcup would be still be able to do so by changing at Dartford - and would end up with much greater effective frequencies. And as an added bonus, there would no longer be any need for an expensive extension of Crossrail to Dartford and Ebbsfleet.

However, I don't think you'd need anything like so many platforms to achieve that. With reasonably quick turnaround times, and perhaps a few more trains extended towards Gravesend I would hazard a guess that you might only need one extra platform at Dartford to accommodate those trains. You would however need some works west of Dartford - as a minimum, grade separation around Slade Green and 4-tracking from Dartford up to where the Crayford lines separate. And to compensate for no Crossrail extension, probably some kind of walkway to connect Ebbsfleet and Northfleet.

Alternatively, if you want to be a bit more ambitious... build a spur to Bluewater, maybe another one to Ebbsfleet, run most trains through Dartford to terminate at either Bluewater, Ebbsfleet, or Gravesend, and you might not need any new platforms at all at Dartford!

 

[Daz28]

Even if you did create a 10 platform superstation at Dartford, you still have the problem of trying to find additional paths through London Bridge / Lewisham to actually run the additional services to fill the new platforms.

For 3.9 million passengers a year, Dartford already has more platforms and more services than similar stations with that demand.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

For 3.9 million passengers a year, Dartford already has more platforms and more services than similar stations with that demand.

The issue isn’t the service from Dartford which as you point out is better than most. I think the major impact that a small medium station at Dartford has it means the metro services have to run in circles which reduces resilience and frequency.

I agree with those who say that you probably don’t need as many as ten platforms to run the suggested level of service. However, there is one additional factor... passengers (including me) loathe staring at screens waiting for our platform to be announced. Wouldn’t it be better for our service to go from the same platform every day so the commute can be done on autopilot.

 

[MarkyT]

Wouldn’t it be better for our service to go from the same platform every day so the commute can be done on autopilot.

It's pretty good in that respect today with only the up or down island to choose from although I think a departure towards London can occur from any one of the four platforms.

 

[Esker-pades]

The issue isn’t the service from Dartford which as you point out is better than most. I think the major impact that a small medium station at Dartford has it means the metro services have to run in circles which reduces resilience and frequency.

I agree with those who say that you probably don’t need as many as ten platforms to run the suggested level of service. However, there is one additional factor... passengers (including me) loathe staring at screens waiting for our platform to be announced. Wouldn’t it be better for our service to go from the same platform every day so the commute can be done on autopilot.

I used Dartford station for ~7 years. I soon got used to the platforms which my services departed from.