• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Reasons provided for delays to train services

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
2,137
Location
Derby
Waiting at Derby station today for the 11.53 XC service to Southampton which was approximately 23 mins late.
Announcements were repeatedly made saying "Sorry for this delay which is due to congestion caused by late running preceeding services"

When I boarded the train, the TM made an announcement saying "Apologies for the delay, this was due to removing drunken passengers at York station for safety reasons"

I think I know which I would prefer to believe. Do stations down the line make up any old rubbish when they don't know the real reason?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
Sometimes the late running can be due to many things. For example, there was a broken down train earlier today, and this caused delays due to "a broken down train", "an earlier broken down train", a "late running preceding service" and "waiting for train crew earlier" which are going to come down to the root cause of the train breaking down.

In your instance... It might have been both reasons! It might have been delayed at York and then because of that, got put behind another late running service. Delay attribution is very complex in the railway, as there is a lot of money in it!

Hopefully, the real time systems are being updated soon, I have heard it is coming about, so that you see the same "excuse" both online, on stations and from station/train staff.
 

Train2Win

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2015
Messages
29
Location
Penzance
I was watching a program called Keeping Britain Moving and for every minute a train is late . The TOC owe Network rail 150 pounds per minute in fines . Can someone verify this ?
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,933
Funnily enough, it doesn't appear to have been delayed at all at York itself! Just to highlight how complicated delay attribution can be, it was delayed approaching York as a reaction to a driver going sick in Manchester earlier in the morning, then delayed again by a track circuit failure south of Hambleton (and it was to this cause that most further delay minutes, through regulation or following other services, were attributed).
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,941
I was watching a program called Keeping Britain Moving and for every minute a train is late . The TOC owe Network rail 150 pounds per minute in fines . Can someone verify this ?

No, that is prime rubbish.

The system is very, very complicated. But the simple version is that for every minute delay attributed to a TOC, they pay NR some cash, and for every delay minute attributed to NR, they pay the TOC some cash.

The amount paid varies by TOC, and by service group within the TOC, based on the value of those trains. Delaying a peak time Thameslink service has a much higher rate per minute than an off peak local service in Cornwall (for example). And the rate NR pays TOCs is much higher than vice versa.

It is actually much more complicated than that, but these are the principles.
 

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
1,132
I heard an announcement on London Underground once: "Delays are being caused by late running" (or was it "trains are running late due to delays"?)
 

ANorthernGuard

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2010
Messages
2,662
No, that is prime rubbish.

The system is very, very complicated. But the simple version is that for every minute delay attributed to a TOC, they pay NR some cash, and for every delay minute attributed to NR, they pay the TOC some cash.

The amount paid varies by TOC, and by service group within the TOC, based on the value of those trains. Delaying a peak time Thameslink service has a much higher rate per minute than an off peak local service in Cornwall (for example). And the rate NR pays TOCs is much higher than vice versa.

It is actually much more complicated than that, but these are the principles.

The Joys of Delay Attribution lol
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
BBC Travel news re ATW currently showing "Disruption between Hereford and Abergavenny due to delays" Journey Check reports "Safety checks".

FGW (and others) say "Obstruction on line" They don't want to tell us it's a tree although NRES do. Incident near Tiverton Jn today involving XC hitting a fallen tree, but even quoted to the media as obstruction. Technically correct though.
 

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
1,132
I remember working at Preston Station in the 1970s, when trains from Edinburgh or Glasgow were late this was often put down to "delays on the Scottish Region". The mind-set being that Preston was in the London Midland Region so it was nothing to do with us!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,729
Location
Nottingham
BBC Travel news re ATW currently showing "Disruption between Hereford and Abergavenny due to delays" Journey Check reports "Safety checks".

FGW (and others) say "Obstruction on line" They don't want to tell us it's a tree although NRES do. Incident near Tiverton Jn today involving XC hitting a fallen tree, but even quoted to the media as obstruction. Technically correct though.

Has anyone attributed it to leaf fall? As in a great many leaves at the same time, still attached to their tree?
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
I remember working at Preston Station in the 1970s, when trains from Edinburgh or Glasgow were late this was often put down to "delays on the Scottish Region". The mind-set being that Preston was in the London Midland Region so it was nothing to do with us!
That reminds me of a couple of weeks ago when I was at Linz in Austria when a train to Vienna was 40 mins late, which was given as due to problems in Germany. No-one bothered to find out what the actual problems were!
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
"I do apologise for the train being five minutes late. It's for no bloody reason at all."...
 

westv

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2013
Messages
4,411
Fortunately it's been a while since it happened but I hated it when a delay was ignored and no explanation forthcoming.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,224
The great Gerard Fiennes once insisted on going on the PA at Kings Cross and announcing: "this delay was caused by management incompetence".
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,622
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
The best one I've ever heard must have been 'I am sorry for our late departure from XYZZY, unfortunately I am unsure as to why as the station staff at XYZ failed to inform me', said during the aftermath of a suspected person hit by a train, by a XC guard, who could've checked his blackberry to find out the reason...

Am I the only one that hates 'operating incident', and 'emergency services dealing with an incident', which often substitute for 'derailment' or 'person hit by a train' respectfully. I mean it's hardly difficult to work out when the first story on that nights news is a derailment in the area, or you see the air ambulance appear in the area...
 

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,515
Location
Sunny Scotland
Am I the only one that hates 'operating incident', and 'emergency services dealing with an incident', which often substitute for 'derailment' or 'person hit by a train' respectfully. I mean it's hardly difficult to work out when the first story on that nights news is a derailment in the area, or you see the air ambulance appear in the area...

Emergency services dealing with an incident isn't usually a Person Hit by train (PHBT). A PHBT is normally announced around here at least as The XX:xx service to XYZ is delayed. This is due to a Person hit by a train.
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,622
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
Emergency services dealing with an incident isn't usually a Person Hit by train (Person Hit By Train). A Person Hit By Train is normally announced around here at least as The XX:xx service to XYZ is delayed. This is due to a Person hit by a train.

What else is it going to be, person taken ill on board is announced as such, and I can't see much else needing the attendance of an air ambulance...
Yes XC I'm looking at you and a particular incident today, which if Twitter is searched enough suggests at least 1 train were told PHBAT, and is also reported on Twitter elsewhere as suicide.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
6,060
Location
Sheffield
Am I the only one that hates 'operating incident', and 'emergency services dealing with an incident',

I doubt it, but some people seem to prefer it.

Yesterday I was on the train behind the incident ;) at Belper. We were told that a person had been hit by a train and, as a result, our train would be diverted from Derby with an expected delay of around 15 mins into Chesterfield and Sheffield. A further announcement was made that the train would reverse at Derby and head back the same way as it had come in.

These announcements seemed clear, helpful and professional to me but the women opposite was on the phone to someone saying "We keep being told that someone has been hit by a train. We don't need to know that - why don't they just say there is an incident". She then went on to say that she didn't know how long the delay was going to be "maybe two hours" and then, when we went back south out of Derby "The train is going back where we came from now - I am going to be even later". So, she seemed disturbed that she had been told the truth and, at the same time, had missed/ignored the most important facts !
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
4,533
As others have said, it can be down to many reasons. i.e. recently the Swindon - Westbury shuttle was delayed with the reason towards Westbury being "due to congestion caused by earlier delays", meanwhile, the return working was delayed "due to a person hit by a train, earlier" - both are true, but it is interesting how the reason varies when it is the same diagram.

"A train late from the depot" is one of my least favourites because it doesn't say why it was delayed, i.e. lack of crew, train fault etc.

It's interesting comparing TOC journeycheck sites too. Arriva Trains Wales' uses the word 'Overcrowding', yet FGW use 'An unusually large passenger flow'.
 

Drogba11CFC

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2009
Messages
941
I remember a GWT train being delayed at Swindon due to fare dodgers, and an XC service to Southampton being delayed by "high winds" back in February 2014.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
I was onc e working a train where I had a lady taken seriously ill. Luckly she was beside a PA, so I was able to inform everybody we were going to be waiting at the next station for an ambulance, on arrival repeat this, announce when the ambulance had arrived and tell everybody when she had been carried off the train and we were getting ready to get the road and depart. In twenty minutes I made four announcements.

As I'm walking through the train after we depart sorting out any missed connections, a chap stops me "Your announcements were rubbish!"

My first thought was that the PA hadn't been working properly, so I ask if he couldn't hear them.
"I could hear them OK, but if something is delaying me, I expect to be told what's wrong with the person, not just that somebody is sick"

While information is a good thing, some people do expect too much.
 

Essexman

Established Member
Joined
15 Mar 2011
Messages
1,476
I was on a Eurostar to Brussels a couple of weeks ago when it was announced that we were making a stop at Calais due to a medical emergency. On this occasion it was clear to us in the front coach what the emergency was - a lady had gone into labour and was taken off by paramedics with contractions two minutes apart. The Train Manager was relieved that we reached Calais in time as he said they are trained for first aid but not delivery babies!
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,939
Location
Fenny Stratford
BBC Travel news re ATW currently showing "Disruption between Hereford and Abergavenny due to delays" Journey Check reports "Safety checks".

FGW (and others) say "Obstruction on line" They don't want to tell us it's a tree although NRES do. Incident near Tiverton Jn today involving XC hitting a fallen tree, but even quoted to the media as obstruction. Technically correct though.

you assume, as people often do, that all three parties have access to the same data and the same lines of communication. What often happens is that one runs with the initial story, a second gets a letter update while the third has the final edition so:

1) Driver reports an issue and signal man asks next train to run slowly to inspect the line ( safety checks)

2) Driver (perhaps going the other way) confirms "something" is on the line blocking it

3) NR men are dispatched to sort it out and confirm it is a tree on the line and then move it

Fortunately it's been a while since it happened but I hated it when a delay was ignored and no explanation forthcoming.

"A train late from the depot" is one of my least favourites because it doesn't say why it was delayed, i.e. lack of crew, train fault etc..

what does it matter if the delay was down to a broken signal, faulty train or the driver going sick. You are still late. I would much prefer the guard/staff spent time trying to help people with onward connection details rather than wasting time sorting out why we are late. The reason doesn’t matter, the fact you are late is the important point

I was onc e working a train where I had a lady taken seriously ill. Luckly she was beside a PA, so I was able to inform everybody we were going to be waiting at the next station for an ambulance, on arrival repeat this, announce when the ambulance had arrived and tell everybody when she had been carried off the train and we were getting ready to get the road and depart. In twenty minutes I made four announcements.

As I'm walking through the train after we depart sorting out any missed connections, a chap stops me "Your announcements were rubbish!"

My first thought was that the PA hadn't been working properly, so I ask if he couldn't hear them.
"I could hear them OK, but if something is delaying me, I expect to be told what's wrong with the person, not just that somebody is sick"

While information is a good thing, some people do expect too much.

Self important nimrods :roll:

The best one I've ever heard must have been 'I am sorry for our late departure from XYZZY, unfortunately I am unsure as to why as the station staff at XYZ failed to inform me', said during the aftermath of a suspected person hit by a train, by a XC guard, who could've checked his blackberry to find out the reason...

Am I the only one that hates 'operating incident', and 'emergency services dealing with an incident', which often substitute for 'derailment' or 'person hit by a train' respectfully. I mean it's hardly difficult to work out when the first story on that nights news is a derailment in the area, or you see the air ambulance appear in the area...

lots of people don’t really want to know the gory details.

The choice of words also conveys several possibilities. You, like many others, seem to be making the mistake of assuming everything is "cut and dried" immediately an incident occurs and that this certainty can be instantly communicated to passengers. Real time information doesn’t work like that sadly.
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
The best one I've ever heard must have been 'I am sorry for our late departure from XYZZY, unfortunately I am unsure as to why as the station staff at XYZ failed to inform me', said during the aftermath of a suspected person hit by a train, by a XC guard, who could've checked his blackberry to find out the reason...

Am I the only one that hates 'operating incident', and 'emergency services dealing with an incident', which often substitute for 'derailment' or 'person hit by a train' respectfully. I mean it's hardly difficult to work out when the first story on that nights news is a derailment in the area, or you see the air ambulance appear in the area...


Operating incident rarely means derailment as they are very rare. It usually means some kind of TPWS/SPAD/fail to call etc or a signalling irregularity leading to a SPAD. If they announced it as 'driver activated TPWS approaching a PSR and is being removed from driving whilst we investigate' then people are likely to get alarmed and go spouting on Twitter how the driver should be sacked and is stupid etc.

Emergancy services rarely means person hit by train, usually means trespasser crossing the line to escape the police, suspicious person on station or near line etc. and is usually used as an excuse as the info from the emergancy services may be limited for obvious reasons. Basically the railway get asked to suspend or caution services at xyz location whilst the emergancy services deal with an incident.
 

jamesst

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,374
Location
Merseyside
I think the only thing you can take from this thread is that whatever reason you give someone will moan!
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,068
I think the only thing you can take from this thread is that whatever reason you give someone will moan!

How I agree!

I'm old enough to remember travelling in non-corridor stock, where, if the train was late, you just sat in ignorance, as you couldn't get a guard down the train, let alone a p.a. message.

At least we have progressed since then. :)
 

CyrusWuff

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
5,474
Location
London
Conversely, someone travelling from London to Guildford won't care that the root cause of their train being late is something like "Due to fire alarms sounding at Lancaster", but will accept (fsvo accept) "Due to following a late running faster service" (or similar).
 

Rich McLean

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2012
Messages
1,757
I was onc e working a train where I had a lady taken seriously ill. Luckly she was beside a PA, so I was able to inform everybody we were going to be waiting at the next station for an ambulance, on arrival repeat this, announce when the ambulance had arrived and tell everybody when she had been carried off the train and we were getting ready to get the road and depart. In twenty minutes I made four announcements.

As I'm walking through the train after we depart sorting out any missed connections, a chap stops me "Your announcements were rubbish!"

My first thought was that the PA hadn't been working properly, so I ask if he couldn't hear them.
"I could hear them OK, but if something is delaying me, I expect to be told what's wrong with the person, not just that somebody is sick"

While information is a good thing, some people do expect too much.

I was on a train from Bristol last year RA Didcot heading to Reading. I was a punter of this occasion, and fast reactions on board from myself, a copper and the TM, meant we had paramedics organised and waiting on the Platform at Reading. The Set left reading for Padd just 1 down.

However, that was a case of being at the right place at the right time and with certain casualties, that isn't always possible
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
4,104
Location
At home or at the pub
Waiting at Derby station today for the 11.53 XC service to Southampton which was approximately 23 mins late.
Announcements were repeatedly made saying "Sorry for this delay which is due to congestion caused by late running preceeding services"

When I boarded the train, the TM made an announcement saying "Apologies for the delay, this was due to removing drunken passengers at York station for safety reasons"

I think I know which I would prefer to believe. Do stations down the line make up any old rubbish when they don't know the real reason?

It could be what the announcers have been told, in the case of disruptive passengers & train failures the TM/Guard will know more about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top