GRALISTAIR
Established Member
There is bound to be some lag between what is happening and what happens on an internet app.
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RTT will only pull cancellations from Network Rail's systems. The operators can put cancellations into Rail Delivery Groups Darwin system and they won't appear in RTT - RTT doesn't pull this current for historic non-technical reasons.
Usually RTT for time predictions and platforms, but keeping a Darwin based app for cancellations is the way to go
Usually RTT for time predictions and platforms, but keeping a Darwin based app for cancellations is the way to go
Are there particular reasons, other than historical accident, why it is desirable to have two separate systems? I would have thought from an operational perspective that a single system would be far better.
There were certainly delays through Chelmsford around 9am yesterday morning shown in RTT - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:CHM/2026-03-12/0910
I'd trust Realtimetrains over local radio any day of the week.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Also I seem to recall it being stated in here that if RTT used Darwin it would be obliged by contract to suppress platforms when Darwin does, which it clearly doesn't want to do as getting around suppression of platforms is a core reason to use it!
I don't know if the owner of RTT can confirm that, he is in here, or was.
Can you explain what 'suppress platforms' means, and why doing this might be done?Also I seem to recall it being stated in here that if RTT used Darwin it would be obliged by contract to suppress platforms when Darwin does, which it clearly doesn't want to do as getting around suppression of platforms is a core reason to use it!
I don't know if the owner of RTT can confirm that, he is in here, or was.
(Or do you mean not showing platforms until they have been announced at the station?)
It means that a platform is allocated but not publicly shown. This could be because a train is not yet ready for boarding or a train has not yet departed but has been taken off the boards a minute or two before departure.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
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- 5,255
For the benefit of us ignoramuses, what Darwin based apps are out there? And are any of them available for those of us who don't work in the railway industry?
There were delays across the GEML yesterday due to a number of reasons, probably just about as many as there could be (including animals, buggies, trees, plastic sheeting).
It's not just suppressing platforms, there are/were also rules about if you use Darwin you have to use their time predictions for the future, when RTT does their own (and frankly better)Also I seem to recall it being stated in here that if RTT used Darwin it would be obliged by contract to suppress platforms when Darwin does, which it clearly doesn't want to do as getting around suppression of platforms is a core reason to use it!
Most apps will be - National Rail, Railboard, TrainSplit, any accredited retailer should be if they offer live times
The only ones I can think of other than RTT are things like Charlwood House which aren't aimed at "normal" people
Realtime Trains in my experience has been very reliable whenever I've wanted to get ahead of the scrum at Euston station. I just check the previous weekday/weekend pattern to try and gauge an idea as to where I might be boarding, and as such I have been able to get ahead of the crowds. It almost feels illegal waiting near the ramp or on the platform but that's really just the atmosphere at the station to be honest.
Mattplans
Member
You have to know what to go to RTT for.
If you want to know if your train is cancelled ahead of time, or perhaps it's being diverted along another route, I would not recommend RTT. (especially if you're using it to plan your travel on the same day) Use a TOC app or https://railchecker.app/ or Railboard (for use on Ios and Android). Similarly, if I wanted to check the reason for a cancellation RTT is going to give me a reason that isn't intended for public use, which is unhelpful.
This morning the service 2K56 (Gillingham to London Victoria via Denmark Hill) was diverted instead of running via Swanley, it ran via Dartford. This is a good example for how different websites will show this information
Railchecker.app shows that it was diverted and makes some attempt at showing what the diversion route was. It also has the most accurate delay reason.
https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/ will also make an attempt at showing the diversion route, but not all stations along the route but it identifies the train as being off-route.
RTT shows the service ran, but it has no delay reason, on the missed route it will just show N/R No Report. Using RTT, it's not possible to identify which route your diverted train took.
if 2k56 was cancelled at Rochester, RTT would show this information but only after the journey was finished - that's not entirely helpful. It will do the same for ad-hoc station skips, it will change to "Not Stopping" only after-the-fact. I think that's slightly misleading - surely it should be "Did not stop" or something. Due to this, one might be led to believe that RTT can indicate when a stop will be missed ahead of time, but this is not the case. You can't use RTT as a reliable indicator for what's going to happen during disruption, for that use journey planning apps and tiger.worldline.global.
Some insiders might know better
Some TOC websites/apps are quite nice - the Thameslink website will show what side of the train the doors will open on, and if it's a short platform where you need to be to alight. RTT will also keep all this information far longer than other public websites will, making it better to refer to for historic data.
Is it possible that you were looking at the wrong date/time? I think it shows disruption. I have attached some images of how different websites show this info.
If you want to know if your train is cancelled ahead of time, or perhaps it's being diverted along another route, I would not recommend RTT. (especially if you're using it to plan your travel on the same day) Use a TOC app or https://railchecker.app/ or Railboard (for use on Ios and Android). Similarly, if I wanted to check the reason for a cancellation RTT is going to give me a reason that isn't intended for public use, which is unhelpful.
tiger.worldline.global is good, and so is https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk
This morning the service 2K56 (Gillingham to London Victoria via Denmark Hill) was diverted instead of running via Swanley, it ran via Dartford. This is a good example for how different websites will show this information
Railchecker.app shows that it was diverted and makes some attempt at showing what the diversion route was. It also has the most accurate delay reason.
https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/ will also make an attempt at showing the diversion route, but not all stations along the route but it identifies the train as being off-route.
RTT shows the service ran, but it has no delay reason, on the missed route it will just show N/R No Report. Using RTT, it's not possible to identify which route your diverted train took.
if 2k56 was cancelled at Rochester, RTT would show this information but only after the journey was finished - that's not entirely helpful. It will do the same for ad-hoc station skips, it will change to "Not Stopping" only after-the-fact. I think that's slightly misleading - surely it should be "Did not stop" or something. Due to this, one might be led to believe that RTT can indicate when a stop will be missed ahead of time, but this is not the case. You can't use RTT as a reliable indicator for what's going to happen during disruption, for that use journey planning apps and tiger.worldline.global.
Some insiders might know better
Some TOC websites/apps are quite nice - the Thameslink website will show what side of the train the doors will open on, and if it's a short platform where you need to be to alight. RTT will also keep all this information far longer than other public websites will, making it better to refer to for historic data.
Is it possible that you were looking at the wrong date/time? I think it shows disruption. I have attached some images of how different websites show this info.
Attachments
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weastebusdepot
Member
Had a situation last weekend where the times of the rail replacement buses didn't match the advertised times for the entire day, since the journey times had been calculated differently. After the first departure, the relevant TOC control was notified and the times were adjusted. That meant station departure screens and Fasteroute were now showing the correct times, however Real Time Trains was still wrong. Meanwhile people who had booked tickets online were getting all sorts of results, including advertised connections where the first part of the journey arrived 40 minutes after the second part had departed.
KNN
Member
Excellent news, I would reiterate what others have said here. For delay predictions, platforms, seeing if can I make this tight connection, it's best in class.
When things are cancelled during major disruption or rerouted it takes a bit of interpreting and I go somewhere else (NRE usually).
The real problem is aligning what is happening on the ground vs what is claimed to be happening out of various systems.
The reality is that across the network neither of the primary data sources are 100% accurate, but there's an acceptance in one that it's better to knowingly be wrong because it means everyone is wrong. I'll let the reader work out which is which. I don't think that, morally, is the right position to hold and if we can demonstrate that it is wrong then we should say as much.
Yes - that makes it more complicated for me to code a reconciliation process but it also means that I'd be happier as a user that the system has tried to reconcile where the truth may actually be.
Our apps are nearly ready for beta testing, at nearly a 6 year overshoot from our promised date. Basically on time by railway standards.
You can join the beta test waitlist by filling in this form. The waitlist will close on Sunday 22 March at midday.
You can join the beta test waitlist by filling in this form. The waitlist will close on Sunday 22 March at midday.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
What features will the apps have in addition to those on the website?
soccermad
Member
I just installed the extension as well - it's fantastic. thanks for the effortThat's my extension by the way, glad you like it
Local radio? I thought Bauer and Global had finally killed that a couple of years ago after many years of trying. The regulator just gave in to repeated moaning that they weren’t make enough £millions. Even the BBC can barely be bothered anymore. Local radio is not to be trusted for any sort of up to date news or information like it used to be. I remember long before the internet was around that BBC Radio York had a live feed of departures and they would read delays on their travel bulletins. The A64 through Tadcaster is blocked by a broken down tractor, the 1134 To Liverpool is 14 minutes late and the 1145 to Paignton is 10 minutes late from platform 3. Then we’re the days of local radio!
I think RTT is great, it shows me train formations and helps me find the correct end of Voyager when I want
a seat. The only time I fine it a problem is in more widespread disruption it doesn’t keep up sometimes. Services you know aren’t running still show as running, but I guess there’s always going to be lag in a fast changing situation.
Darwin was mentioned above, where are the best places to look at that information?
Thanks
Had this experience on Sunday 15th March with the 1938 Northwich to Stockport, the last connection of the day for me travelling to Kidsgrove. Checked Realtime Trains throughout the day and it was shown as running and on time, as was the inbound 1803 to Chester that formed it. When I arrived at Northwich Station at 1925, the departure boards were not showing anything but Realtime trains showed the 1938 as still running and on time. When it failed to appear, I checked Realtime trains again and the 1938 had now disappeared and the next service showing was the 2138. Ended up getting an Uber to Crewe at a cost of £24.00 so I could continue by rail to Kidsgrove, rather than be stranded. Have put a claim in with Northern for the taxi fare. I am reluctant to use this service again on a Sunday as it is only runs very two hours at best.
Very nicely designed and integrated into the site.That's my extension by the way, glad you like it
I have just noticed a curious behaviour however. Consider the following service from Plymouth to Aberdeen, which despite showing Worcestershire Parkway as a calling point in the schedule, does not show as a marker or even a line vertex on the map. I would presume that this is something in the underlying data that is causing this?
1D54
Established Member
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- 1 Jun 2019
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- 1,463
As much as i love RTT there are times when looking elsewhere is very important.. Currently showing 1K13 as cancelled due to an issue with the train crew yet it is running on time.
We made a change to the Worldline CIS some time back to automatically add passing points for diverted trains, which are then sent through to Darwin. Previously this train would have disappeared once it left it's booked route and just shown as "Delayed" until it re-joined the scheduled route. Now it'll continue to track through the entire journey.
How "automatically" is automatically? Does it guess the diversion route, or is it still relying on a human to tell it that?
In any case, surely you'd throw a manual delay on the point it rejoined to avoid the "delayed" problem, even if you didn't add the diversion locations in?
riceuten
Member
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- 23 May 2018
- Messages
- 938
I use realtimetrains but recognise its limitations and try and triangulate from more than one information source what is going wrong. Opentraintimes' maps are often helpful in ascertaining the reason for a delay
mike57
Established Member
As a regular traveller thanks to those up thread who explained the difference between RTT and App based running info.
I use both, as I had realised that 'Apps' often dont give platform numbers, but App based results can be more accurate in some conditions
Where there is queueing and the resulting slow moving shuffling walk I can frequently avoid it. Knee issues means standing or the slow shuffle get unpleasant fairly quickly. Funny thing is walking 'properly' is not an issue and I cycle every day.
As an example of info which is only available by RTT you can generally fathom out which platform Eurostars leave from, and position yourself at the right point in the waiting area, result a quick walk rather than the aforementioned slow knee killing shuffle. Same at Kings Cross, where platform numbers are announced late even if the train is stood there and staffed and ready. Obviously you do need to be aware of late changes and make sure you have the right info. The annoying thing, a lot of the issues I use RTT to avoid could be avoided by better management/procedures. If a train is ready staffed and open start getting people on it.
I use both, as I had realised that 'Apps' often dont give platform numbers, but App based results can be more accurate in some conditions
Where there is queueing and the resulting slow moving shuffling walk I can frequently avoid it. Knee issues means standing or the slow shuffle get unpleasant fairly quickly. Funny thing is walking 'properly' is not an issue and I cycle every day.
As an example of info which is only available by RTT you can generally fathom out which platform Eurostars leave from, and position yourself at the right point in the waiting area, result a quick walk rather than the aforementioned slow knee killing shuffle. Same at Kings Cross, where platform numbers are announced late even if the train is stood there and staffed and ready. Obviously you do need to be aware of late changes and make sure you have the right info. The annoying thing, a lot of the issues I use RTT to avoid could be avoided by better management/procedures. If a train is ready staffed and open start getting people on it.