Really simple train tickets

[Nicholas43]

1. Between each pair of adjacent stations, set, and publish, a 'fare distance'. This can be the same as the actual distance, or less (e.g. in the Far North or the Heart of Wales), or more (e.g. between Bedford and St Pancras, or Slough and Paddington).
2. Set one Great British price per 'fare distance mile', in standard class.
3. Sell only single 'tickets', priced according to the shortest route, normally to be purchased before your journey and normally to be stored and displayed on a suitable 'device'.
4. Also sell sleeper supplements, at a slack, peak, or shoulder price; and seat reservations.
5. Abolish the current surcharge for travelling, seated or standing, in a crowded train which a complicated 'restriction code' deems to be 'peak'.
6. If you cannot, or choose not to, carry a suitable device, you may book by telephone, email, or WhatsApp (etc?), and be given a three word code instead of a 'ticket'.
7. Large discounts for groups travelling together. No age-related discounts, cards for people whose grandmothers were born in a specified county, etc.
8. Only on the train, you may purchase a 50% supplement to travel in First Class.
9. 100% surcharge if you are inspected and found without a 'ticket' or three word code.
10. As well as the shortest route, you may take any reasonable route.
11. I don't know what to do about journeys including the London Underground!
12. A reasonable route is any route which was allowed in 1960, or any route deemed reasonable by a panel consisting of Hadders, Yorkie, and the King's Remembrancer, who shall be suitably remunerated for their skill.
[retreats into deep bunker ...]

 

[A S Leib]

No age-related discounts, cards for people whose grandmothers were born in a specified county, etc.

Children and other young people in full-time education and older people on pensions likely have lower incomes and are likelier not to drive or to be less safe drivers, so I'd strongly disagree on that point, as well as the lack of discounts for disabled people who can't drive.

Only on the train, you may purchase a 50% supplement to travel in First Class.

50% extra might be underpriced in some cases and overpriced in others, given e.g. only Avanti, LNER and TPE typically providing full meals in First.

3. Sell only single 'tickets', priced according to the shortest route, normally to be purchased before your journey and normally to be stored and displayed on a suitable 'device'.

Would these tickets be advance, flexible, or either? Would breaks of journey still be allowed? Would season tickets (and rangers / rovers) still exist?

4. Also sell sleeper supplements, at a slack, peak, or shoulder price; and seat reservations.

I don't think there are any major issues with free seat reservations right now; the bigger problem's with cases where TOCs automatically assign seat reservations with tickets which then go unused.

How would you prevent overcrowding on intercity services if they're the same price as regional ones without pricing people off of regional services as well?

 

[Nicholas43]

Would these tickets be advance, flexible, or either?

All tickets would flexible.

Would breaks of journey still be allowed?

Yes, if a simple method can be devised of noting where I leave and resume.

Would season tickets (and rangers / rovers) still exist?

No.

 

[A S Leib]

All tickets would flexible.

That sounds like another case of simplification whilst driving up costs in that case. I don't believe that there's any way that long-distance services could be affordable with only flexible tickets available.

 

[Topological]

It is a no from me, I like advances.

The problem with most simplifications is that they end up costing people more and remove the ability of the railway to tap into new markets (as per cheap advances that give neat headline prices for adverts)

 

[Hadders]

How much would it cost to travel rom York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and will the fare be competetive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

What would it cost to travel from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and whether your system will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

How much would a day return fare from York to London cost, and if this is lower than current price how would the revenue loss be made up?

How much would it cost to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford Intl (and any routeing options you wish to provide) and would those fares apply from, say, London Charing Cross to Ashford Intl?

 

[The exile]

No.

As an answer to whether seasons /rangers and rovers exist. You’ve just removed one of the great (potential) drivers down of (urban) car use -particularly at weekends. One of the reasons public transport has become the default option in many major (continental) cities is the fact that once you’ve got a (zonal) season ticket you might as well use it as optional travel is effectively free. Many places enhance that by allowing free travel for a certain number of people accompanying season ticket holders at weekends. I assume also your “distance” idea would be zonal in dense networks as you often don’t know when you start the journey which route you’re going to take.

 

[mike57]

I agree with some of whats proposed by the OP, fares do need simplification.

I think you have to retain advance tickets in some form or other as they are the easiest way to spread load onto more lightly used services.

Another question is what to do about the declining but significant number of people without or unwilling to use a smartphone. I personally can see the '3 word code' being a recipe for disaster. I would go for a simple smart card which is loaded with your tickets, and eliminate paper tickets. If you buy your ticket at a staffed window you put your card in to a device as you would a bank card. The same at a machine. At the very least the card should be named, not sure that you need a picture unless it carries a season ticket. Your first smart cards comes free after that a nominal say £5 to replace lost or damaged ones with a freebie every 2nd or 3rd year to cover normal wear and tear.

If you are going to remove the various rail cards then fares immediately rise by 30%+ for a lot of rail users. I think this would be uacceptable to a lot. May be come at from a different direction, everyone has the option to buy a discount card, which gives you a third off all fares, unless you fall into certain more tightly controlled groups this costs you £40 per year. If you are disabled you get it cheap/free and if those disabilities mean you need a carer travelling with you then you get two cards, otherwise you pay your £40.

I can see the attraction of 'Fare distance', but it could create a situation where we get back to split tickets being cheaper, and that is one of the current system complexities which really needs addressing, so I am not sure how you do that. I think in metro areas zones make more sense.

I agree about Singles, and the Single fare for a given ticket is exactly half the current cheapest reurn in that ticket category. Break of journey is allowed but only on the same day, however if you are doing an A to B to C back to A via B itinerary then buying two or three singles isnt going to see any difference to cost.

The other requirement I would inist on is that all the changes end up revenue neutral taking the whole network into account.

First Class comes in two guises, a better seat, and a better seat and food/drink. This almost brings us back to the original 3rd 2nd 1st concept. I think the uplift for it has to be a commercial decision based on the route, but with a more flexible approach to upgrade at the time of travel. Consider a train from London to York, overall 2/3rds full, this is going to generate a given revenue. Assuming 1st class is less then 50% full then convincing 20 people in 'Standard class' to upgrade to 1st on payment of supplement is a win for the railways. Maybe on less busy services sell upgrades on a first come first served basis. It almost brings us back to the weekend first concept...

Seasons and rangers are whole different category, probably retain them in the short term

 

[A S Leib]

I personally can see the '3 word code' being a recipe for disaster. I would go for a simple smart card which is loaded with your tickets, and eliminate paper tickets.

I think České dráhy manages with the option to provide transaction codes rather than solely tickets, although I'm far from opposed to smart cards.

If you are going to remove the various rail cards then fares immediately rise by 30%+ for a lot of rail users

50%+ rises in most cases, given it's going from ~0.66 to 1.00 of a standard fare.

Break of journey is allowed but only on the same day,

It's getting back into a more complicated system, but one attraction of driving is that you can stop off at York overnight then at Newcastle for a few hours the next day on the way from London to Edinburgh. Trains are already more limited in that you generally have to break journeys where there's a station*, so I'd keep overnight breaks of journey for longer journeys.

*I'm guessing something like Via Rail's mile post request stops wouldn't be allowed in the UK, even if timetables weren't far tighter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's getting back into a more complicated system, but one attraction of driving is that you can stop off at York overnight then at Newcastle for a few hours the next day on the way from London to Edinburgh. Trains are already more limited in that you generally have to break journeys where there's a station*, so I'd keep overnight breaks of journey for longer journeys.

Almost nobody does this ad-hoc whether on a train or in a car (not least because you wouldn't want to do it without knowing you had a hotel booking or had OKed it with family/friends you were visiting first), so single fare pricing (so you don't need the constraints of the same split both ways) provides for this as much as is really necessary while removing the issues of ticket re-use on multiple days. Just split your ticket at the intended overnight break. Often it's even cheaper to do so.

By contrast, same day break of journey (including starting and ending short as well as leaving a gap in the middle because you fancied a bus ride or whatever) should be permitted on all ticket types, aside from the constraint of needing to use the booked trains only on an Advance type ticket. Nobody should ever be telling people they can't go through gatelines or out of stations for any reason they choose; it's just silly (particularly as you can't change the origin or destination of an Advance ticket). And if someone can save a quid or two by buying a longer journey, fix that.

 

[styles]

1. Between each pair of adjacent stations, set, and publish, a 'fare distance'. This can be the same as the actual distance, or less (e.g. in the Far North or the Heart of Wales), or more (e.g. between Bedford and St Pancras, or Slough and Paddington).

I don't have an issue with this in principle.

Of course, you do end up in a tizz when a permitted change point is further away than an actual destination, thus making it cheaper to buy a ticket to a destination you have no intention of visiting, but breaking/leaving your journey at the change point.

2. Set one Great British price per 'fare distance mile', in standard class.

As above.

3. Sell only single 'tickets', priced according to the shortest route, normally to be purchased before your journey and normally to be stored and displayed on a suitable 'device'.

When you say 'shortest' route - what do you mean? Fewest miles? Least minutes? At the moment a lot of passengers will actually gladly accept a longer journey in either minutes or in miles if it results in a cheaper fare. Let's say London to Crewe - you can save a fortune by taking LNWR on a slow, no-tables, local calling service which pulls over for the faster Avanti services.

If we bring down the Avanti fares, the trains will be rammed.

If we bring up the LNWR/WMT fares, nobody will buy them, and the Avanti services will be rammed.

4. Also sell sleeper supplements, at a slack, peak, or shoulder price; and seat reservations.

I have a whole other set of opinions on sleepers which are mainly that, alongside the current 'luxury' offerings, we should set out some 4-berth sleeping compartments where the rooms are shared with strangers. This is common across the world and while I appreciate a lot of British people appreciate their privacy a little more, I do believe there's a sizeable market for an affordable sleeper service at least from the south of England to Scotland. We have capacity at night, and could run it quite easily.

5. No surcharge (as now) for travelling, seated or standing, in a crowded train.

Well, quite.

6. If you cannot, or choose not to, carry a suitable device, you may book by telephone, email, or WhatsApp (etc?), and be given a three word code instead of a 'ticket'.

An out of the box idea, I'd agree with this. The uptake would be low though, as the number of passengers who don't wish to get paper tickets, don't want a PDF e-ticket, and don't have an m-ticket suitable device must be diminishingly small. If anything I'd do it for the novelty.

7. Large discounts for groups travelling together. No age-related discounts, cards for people whose grandmothers were born in a specified county, etc.

There are already GroupSave discounts, and operator-specific discounts for large groups. I would approve of expanding this.

8. Only on the train, you may purchase a 50% supplement to travel in First Class.

Disagree. It complicates things, and often the cost of 1st class is much more than that, and part of the reason for the sale price of 1st class is the 'exclusivity' or peace and quiet. This will be diminished if people can get 1h in 1st class for £10 as a universal policy. SeatFrog offers this but the numbers are capped and the prices are demand-driven. A flat rate I don't think will work especially well, and in any case would need to account properly for capacity.

9. 100% surcharge if you are inspected and found without a 'ticket' or three word code.

Yeah I don't really mind what penalty is applied to fare evaders. I think it's a bit OTT to make it a criminal offence as the UK does, but 100% penalty sounds fair.

10. As well as the shortest route, you may take any reasonable route.

Well this gets tricky doesn't it? The national routeing guide is complicated enough, without holding guards responsible for making subjective judgements of what 'reasonable' is. I'd be interested to know of cases where the NRG has determined a route not allowed, but the passengers have argued it's reasonable.

11. I don't know what to do about journeys including the London Underground!

Nor does anybody else, including TfL!

12. A reasonable route is any route which was allowed in 1960, or any route deemed reasonable by a panel consisting of Hadders, Yorkie, and the King's Remembrancer, who shall be suitably remunerated for their skill.
[retreats into deep bunker ...]

Oh ok actually maybe rule 10 is ok!

 

[stevieinselby]

Almost nobody does this ad-hoc whether on a train or in a car (not least because you wouldn't want to do it without knowing you had a hotel booking or had OKed it with family/friends you were visiting first), so single fare pricing (so you don't need the constraints of the same split both ways) provides for this as much as is really necessary while removing the issues of ticket re-use on multiple days. Just split your ticket at the intended overnight break. Often it's even cheaper to do so.

There's a false dichotomy between a spur of the moment decision and an incomplete plan. Sure, you're unlikely to set off on a journey without knowing where or whether you're going to stop overnight en route (I know some people like to do this, but it's a pretty niche case), but you might well be planning a journey in general principle but not know until near the time whether you're going to stop over or not. For example, my parents arranged to come and visit me a couple of months ahead, and they also wanted to call in and see other friends and family along the way, but also knew that they wouldn't be able to get a firm answer until much nearer the time. As it happens, they are coming by car anyway, but if they were wanting to travel by train then the inability to buy a flexible ticket allowing break of journey at a sensible price (or even at all!) would probably have put them off, if they had to commit to a specific plan a couple of months ahead or run the risk of having to pay full fare when they were able to firm up their plans a few days beforehand.

 

[Nicholas43]

How much would it cost to travel from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and will the fare be competitive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

Fare miles Middlesbrough to Whitby would be less than geographical miles, because it's a wiggly slow line. No, the rail fare York to Whitby via Yarm would be more than the bus. But there would be an attractive ticket York to Scarborough by train plus bus to Whitby.

What would it cost to travel from Peterborough to Leicester,

More than the advances currently available. Less than the over-priced flexible single.

and also Leicester to Nottingham,

ditto

and whether your system will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

If I understand correctly that Peterborough to Nottingham is currently permitted via Leicester, then yes. There would be one single fare Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or Grantham.

How much would a day return fare from York to London cost, and if this is lower than current price how would the revenue loss be made up?

There would be singles York to Kings Cross and Kings Cross to York, priced between currently available sensible advances, LNER's fiendish 'simpler' fares, and current, mad, flexible fares.

How much would it cost to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford Intl (and any routeing options you wish to provide) and would those fares apply from, say, London Charing Cross to Ashford Intl?

Gosh. Don't really know. If I've got it right that Network Rail charges a lot more to use the High Speed Line, then fare-miles Ashford to St Pancras would be (much?) more than geographical miles. So a ticket to Charing Cross would be cheaper; but upgradable on the train, or on departure from, or arrival at, St Pancras.

As an answer to whether seasons /rangers and rovers exist. You’ve just removed one of the great (potential) drivers down of (urban) car use -particularly at weekends. One of the reasons public transport has become the default option in many major (continental) cities is the fact that once you’ve got a (zonal) season ticket you might as well use it as optional travel is effectively free. Many places enhance that by allowing free travel for a certain number of people accompanying season ticket holders at weekends.

I strongly agree that we want to reduce car dependency. Near me, a way to do that would be to set the fare miles between Oxford Parkway and Oxford at (say) only 1. Then everyone (not just people who travel five times a week from Bicester to Oxford) would have a cheap option to avoid driving into Oxford.

I assume also your “distance” idea would be zonal in dense networks as you often don’t know when you start the journey which route you’re going to take.

Good point, yes, thank you.

 

[A S Leib]

There would be singles York to Kings Cross and Kings Cross to York, priced between currently available sensible advances, LNER's fiendish 'simpler' fares, and current, mad, flexible fares.

I'm generally flexible enough time-wise that for a journey that length, the most I'd be willing to spend on an advance ticket would be ~£30 (if, for argument's sake, I didn't have a railcard, as you're also proposing abolishing them). The anytime single is £172. Having one standard class fare for London – York at the midpoint of ~£100 sounds like it would price out the vast majority of travellers whilst not making enough revenue as it could from those able and particularly willing to pay more, as walk-up passengers could get a first class ticket for less than the standard one now costs.

 

[eldomtom2]

1. Between each pair of adjacent stations, set, and publish, a 'fare distance'. This can be the same as the actual distance, or less (e.g. in the Far North or the Heart of Wales), or more (e.g. between Bedford and St Pancras, or Slough and Paddington).
2. Set one Great British price per 'fare distance mile', in standard class.
3. Sell only single 'tickets', priced according to the shortest route, normally to be purchased before your journey and normally to be stored and displayed on a suitable 'device'.
4. Also sell sleeper supplements, at a slack, peak, or shoulder price; and seat reservations.

This is pretty much how it works in Japan, with the additional point that express trains require an additional distance-based surcharge to be paid on top of the base fare.

 

[SynthD]

I strongly agree that we want to reduce car dependency. Near me, a way to do that would be to set the fare miles between Oxford Parkway and Oxford at (say) only 1. Then everyone (not just people who travel five times a week from Bicester to Oxford) would have a cheap option to avoid driving into Oxford.

I like this idea, but I wonder what the repercussions are for comparing two routes where one has a few parkway stations with this inducement and the other is a little shorter.

 

[aron2smith]

I created my own fare system recently and decided to make it a graduated distance based system. All fares are singles.

0 to 50 miles - 20p/ mile (2nd) 35p/ mile (1st)
50 to 100 miles - 19p/ mile (2nd) 33p/ mile (1st)
100 to 150 miles - 18p/ mile (2nd) 31p/ mile (1st)
150 to 200 miles - 17p/ mile (2nd) 29p/ mile (1st)
200 to 300 miles - 16p/ mile (2nd) 27p/ mile (1st)
300+ miles - 15p/ mile (2nd) 25p/ mile (1st)

Fares capped above 375 miles, in my system this is £60 2nd class single or £100 1st class single. No single journeys would cost more than this!

As an example Paddington to Plymouth is almost 246 miles, this would fall under the 240 to 260 mile band - £41.60 (2nd) or £70.20 (1st) each way, this is considerably cheaper than even the Super Off Peak today!

Anytime and Off Peaks would be abolished, with fares based on the current super off peak. All singles would be flexible allowing break of journey, TOC only would be gone as trains would be divided into Intercity, regional and commuter services. The ticket to Plymouth for example, would be valid via Bristol, Westbury or Yeovil, any route that is obviously along the way. A return would be available at double a single and sold as the month returns are now.

The distance based system would mainly apply to Intercity and Regional Services.

Journeys with multiple journeys available would have route specific tickets available for less money, 10% to 20% cheaper than 'any permitted', based on demand of route. In the case of Plymouth, via Yeovil would be the cheapest and via Westbury would be the standard price.

Advance tickets would still be available but less of them and less necessary if I'm honest. 25% cheaper than walk on tickets, if for some reason you can't make the booked train, simply pay the difference on the train to excess your ticket!

Splitting tickets simply wouldn't be necessary either, as the rail system would be treated as one network again.


Areas with dense public transport networks would have zonal multi modal fares, travelcards, hopper fares and capping. This is where Commuter Services would exist.
13 areas
- London and South East (based on the Project Oval area/ would cover Thameslink in full/ Network South East to an extent)
- Norwich Metro (lines to Sheringham, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth and Thetford)
- Brighton + East and West Coastway Lines
- Bournemouth to Southampton and Portsmouth
- Bristol/ Bath including to Weston Super Mare and Gloucester/ Cheltenham
- Exeter Metro - Barnstaple, Okehampton, Exmouth and Paignton
- West Midlands centred on Birmingham (essentially today's WMR network)
- South and West Yorkshire centred on Leeds including York and Harrogate
- Bee Network area and Merseyrail area - both valid to Warrington Central, may work better as one system!
- North East and Teeside centred on Newcastle
- Scottish Central Belt all stopping services out of Glasgow and Edinburgh
- Cardiff and Valleys including to Swansea.

Any of these zones would have an extension ticket similar to Boundary zone 6, where the distance based fare would apply.

Plus bus, rangers and rovers would still be available and ideally cover every part of the country. Plus bus would ideally be extended to more places and cover trams in places that have them. They would be better advertised too.

Delay Repay would work as it is now.

And I think railcards should remain but be simplified with consistent rules of validity.

-----------------------------------------
As for OP, I really agree with 1 to 5.
6, we need to keep paper tickets available for accessibility purposes. Whoever, decided to make them far bigger is very foolish!
7, already exists as Groupsave and should be better advertised and available on ALL routes, even busy Intercity services. Me and some mates did London to Canterbury with Groupsave last year, it made things so simple when we realised it existed!
8. I would agree but I think the difference, should be the difference in fare, if that is £30, simply pay £30 to the guard or host to upgrade, unless it's full for some reason.
9. I am adamant, people should be able to buy on board either Intercity or Regional with no penalty. We really should be staffing all our trains. Commuter services on the other hand, no excuse, a fine as today seems appropriate.
10. Strongly Agreed.
11 and 12. Haha, that's funny. No reason any cross London journey would be any different to now, any reasonable route from terminus to terminus or a station like Stratford or Richmond where it's easy to change services. Would be included in the distance based fare or if full journey is in a zonal area, charge according to zones travelled.

 

[A S Leib]

As an example Paddington to Plymouth is almost 246 miles, this would fall under the 240 to 260 mile band - £41.60 (2nd) or £70.20 (1st) each way, this is considerably cheaper than even the Super Off Peak today!

Anytime and Off Peaks would be abolished, with fares based on the current super off peak

I think that system would almost instantly collapse in some areas under the weight of too much demand.

 

[Hadders]

I created my own fare system recently and decided to make it a graduated distance based system. All fares are singles.

0 to 50 miles - 20p/ mile (2nd) 35p/ mile (1st)
50 to 100 miles - 19p/ mile (2nd) 33p/ mile (1st)
100 to 150 miles - 18p/ mile (2nd) 31p/ mile (1st)
150 to 200 miles - 17p/ mile (2nd) 29p/ mile (1st)
200 to 300 miles - 16p/ mile (2nd) 27p/ mile (1st)
300+ miles - 15p/ mile (2nd) 25p/ mile (1st)

Fares capped above 375 miles, in my system this is £60 2nd class single or £100 1st class single. No single journeys would cost more than this!

As an example Paddington to Plymouth is almost 246 miles, this would fall under the 240 to 260 mile band - £41.60 (2nd) or £70.20 (1st) each way, this is considerably cheaper than even the Super Off Peak today!

Anytime and Off Peaks would be abolished, with fares based on the current super off peak. All singles would be flexible allowing break of journey, TOC only would be gone as trains would be divided into Intercity, regional and commuter services. The ticket to Plymouth for example, would be valid via Bristol, Westbury or Yeovil, any route that is obviously along the way. A return would be available at double a single and sold as the month returns are now.

The distance based system would mainly apply to Intercity and Regional Services.

Journeys with multiple journeys available would have route specific tickets available for less money, 10% to 20% cheaper than 'any permitted', based on demand of route. In the case of Plymouth, via Yeovil would be the cheapest and via Westbury would be the standard price.

Advance tickets would still be available but less of them and less necessary if I'm honest. 25% cheaper than walk on tickets, if for some reason you can't make the booked train, simply pay the difference on the train to excess your ticket!

Splitting tickets simply wouldn't be necessary either, as the rail system would be treated as one network again.


Areas with dense public transport networks would have zonal multi modal fares, travelcards, hopper fares and capping. This is where Commuter Services would exist.
13 areas
- London and South East (based on the Project Oval area/ would cover Thameslink in full/ Network South East to an extent)
- Norwich Metro (lines to Sheringham, Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth and Thetford)
- Brighton + East and West Coastway Lines
- Bournemouth to Southampton and Portsmouth
- Bristol/ Bath including to Weston Super Mare and Gloucester/ Cheltenham
- Exeter Metro - Barnstaple, Okehampton, Exmouth and Paignton
- West Midlands centred on Birmingham (essentially today's WMR network)
- South and West Yorkshire centred on Leeds including York and Harrogate
- Bee Network area and Merseyrail area - both valid to Warrington Central, may work better as one system!
- North East and Teeside centred on Newcastle
- Scottish Central Belt all stopping services out of Glasgow and Edinburgh
- Cardiff and Valleys including to Swansea.

Any of these zones would have an extension ticket similar to Boundary zone 6, where the distance based fare would apply.

Plus bus, rangers and rovers would still be available and ideally cover every part of the country. Plus bus would ideally be extended to more places and cover trams in places that have them. They would be better advertised too.

Delay Repay would work as it is now.

And I think railcards should remain but be simplified with consistent rules of validity.

-----------------------------------------
As for OP, I really agree with 1 to 5.
6, we need to keep paper tickets available for accessibility purposes. Whoever, decided to make them far bigger is very foolish!
7, already exists as Groupsave and should be better advertised and available on ALL routes, even busy Intercity services. Me and some mates did London to Canterbury with Groupsave last year, it made things so simple when we realised it existed!
8. I would agree but I think the difference, should be the difference in fare, if that is £30, simply pay £30 to the guard or host to upgrade, unless it's full for some reason.
9. I am adamant, people should be able to buy on board either Intercity or Regional with no penalty. We really should be staffing all our trains. Commuter services on the other hand, no excuse, a fine as today seems appropriate.
10. Strongly Agreed.
11 and 12. Haha, that's funny. No reason any cross London journey would be any different to now, any reasonable route from terminus to terminus or a station like Stratford or Richmond where it's easy to change services. Would be included in the distance based fare or if full journey is in a zonal area, charge according to zones travelled.

This would result in a massive reduction in revenue. Where is that missing revenue coming from?

 

[aron2smith]

I think that system would almost instantly collapse in some areas under the weight of too much demand.

Which areas of the country would this happen though? I personally think making all times of day costing the same would spread out the demand. Currently we see Intercity trains, especially out of King's Cross and Euston, lesser extent St Pancras and Paddington running almost empty trains out in the morning peak. As soon as the first 'off peak' train is out, they are full and standing, especially in Euston! It's a daft system. And with more local and commuter routes, people still need to travel to work, they are being intentionally ripped off. People like me who don't need to travel at that time, generally wouldn't travel just to avoid rush hour, we don't need to be charged higher to be put off.

Enough morning people out there who we take the 6am or 7am trains if they were priced appropriately. Also overcrowding really shows the medium to long term failure to invest, either in rolling stock, infrastructure or both. Doubling single track railways (always seeing people on here saying about the inadequacy of the West of England line) and 4 tracking double track lines as well as high speed rail and bypasses, we probably need all of them to bring our rail system into the modern era.

I think where Intercity and Regional services run side by side, it should definitely be noticeably cheaper to take the slower service but at the same time, we should enable flexibility as the default for train travel. That would probably require far more development of our rail system than we've ever seen in recent decades.

 

[ollyexe2808]

This would result in a massive reduction in revenue. Where is that missing revenue coming from?

Agree....though if we are being devil's advocate, we have had over a decade of fuel duty freezes, we could certainly unfreeze fuel duty to at least provide a temporary reduction in rail fares....but it wouldn't work long term without significant subsidy.

In terms of the other wider ideas, I am all for a simpler pricing. It would also make sense to abolish peak and off-peak and have demand-led pricing. I don't know how this would work though. I think a 'standard' advanced or saver fare on a route for booking in advance would be useful, similar to an early bird discount. Maybe also some cheaper tickets available nearer the time if demand is low. I find it increasingly difficult to find any advance fares that are a significant discount to make it worthwhile to be fixed to a particular train.

 

[A S Leib]

As soon as the first 'off peak' train is out, they are full and standing, especially in Euston!

Abolishing peak fares is something I've grown more sympathetic towards; spreading out demand through cheap advances should also (continue to) be done.

Enough morning people out there who we take the 6am or 7am trains if they were priced appropriately

There's already tonnes who do on e.g. the southern WCML.

I find it increasingly difficult to find any advance fares that are a significant discount to make it worthwhile to be fixed to a particular train.

My experience is very different, but as GWR and CrossCountry are TOCs I tend to find fewer cheap advances and your location's given as Exeter, maybe that's why.

 

[aron2smith]

This would result in a massive reduction in revenue. Where is that missing revenue coming from?

Maybe the revenue should be less from passengers and more from real estate or businesses. Japan is a good example, the rail companies build apartments, rent out retail spaces, make the stations and the surrounding land neighbourhoods, guaranteeing loads of passengers at all times. It seems really smart. Tie the rail network and transport policy directly into housing policy and planning, seems like a no brainer. It also puzzles me that many of our old Victorian rail stations come with hotels on site as part of the building and yet that is now a completely separate business, it wasn't built like that. I personally really like how Merseyrail ticket offices also are corner shops, I wish TFL and others did that!

I feel like we got it wrong when we separated the railway from everything and then expect tickets to make the whole thing profitable, it never worked like that. Either we subsidise it with taxes like we do with roads or let the railway naturally expand into other businesses and become entrepreneurial. A bit like the mindset of buses and coaches supposedly competing with the railways, they should be seen as an extension of the railways.

 

[ollyexe2808]

My experience is very different, but as GWR and CrossCountry are TOCs I tend to find fewer cheap advances and your location's given as Exeter, maybe that's why.

Yes, certainly back in 2010-2015 I found it much much easier to do a trip to London for about £20 one way (on the Paddington route) with an advanced ticket. Those days are long gone and whilst I can search now and find a fare in October for about £36.50 one way, those are a rarity and for someone who doesn't know the system well, it can be confusing and difficult to work out how and when to find cheaper prices.

Sadly I know more people likely to, for example, drive Exeter to Bristol and pay perhaps £40 fuel and parking than pay £20-£30 per person to take the train, despite the latter being quicker.

 

[aron2smith]

My experience is very different, but as GWR and CrossCountry are TOCs I tend to find fewer cheap advances and your location's given as Exeter, maybe that's why.

I booked two trips on GWR yesterday, one to Plymouth and one to Bristol from Paddington. Very few advance tickets at all. £90 return for Plymouth now!, 2 advances pushed it to nearly £100! If I didn't have a railcard, I would've gone back to using coaches, train prices are ridiculous and the lack of leniency towards advance tickets most of the time really bothers me. If you miss your train, it shouldn't be a new ticket please, it should be if an advance is £50 and a walk on is £70, £20 is payable for the ticket to be excessed and become valid again. Also last 2 times I came back from Plymouth were so stressful, strike that was called off last minute, but I got staff to change day and time on ticket which they did for free because of the circumstances and then last time, a storm was looking like it would cancel trains through Dawlish (we got through luckily, scary with the sea hitting the windows though!), so flexible tickets everytime for me!

Knowing their is a cap of sorts on fares is very useful, even if it's expensive. By comparison, LNER solution is awful and doesn't actually simplify anything. Whenever Project Oval is finished, that is a far better solution, albeit a regional solution.

 

[ollyexe2808]

I booked two trips on GWR yesterday, one to Plymouth and one to Bristol from Paddington. Very few advance tickets at all. £90 return for Plymouth now!, 2 advances pushed it to nearly £100! If I didn't have a railcard, I would've gone back to using coaches, train prices are ridiculous and the lack of leniency towards advance tickets most of the time really bothers me. If you miss your train, it shouldn't be a new ticket please, it should be if an advance is £50 and a walk on is £70, £20 is payable for the ticket to be excessed and become valid again. Also last 2 times I came back from Plymouth were so stressful, strike that was called off last minute, but I got staff to change day and time on ticket which they did for free because of the circumstances and then last time, a storm was looking like it would cancel trains through Dawlish (we got through luckily, scary with the sea hitting the windows though!), so flexible tickets everytime for me!

Knowing their is a cap of sorts on fares is very useful, even if it's expensive. By comparison, LNER solution is awful and doesn't actually simplify anything. Whenever Project Oval is finished, that is a far better solution, albeit a regional solution.

Sadly a very common occurrence on the GWR part of the line. There are also massive inconsistencies with pricing, with fares down to Cornwall from Exeter noticeably cheaper than the same distances going north or east. The comments about zonal/regional fare structures should certainly be a consideration in any ticket reforms. Even as someone obsessed with rail travel, I am often loathe to pay 'walk-up' fees on the day. Even if advanced fares weren't as cheap, it would be good to have a level of consistency and reliability with knowing that if you booked, let's say, 6 weeks in advance, you had a high likelihood of getting a ticket that was 30% cheaper for example.

Also, @aron2smith I share your view about Advanced tickets versus walk ons - why is it not possible to pay the difference rather than a new ticket? After all, your total fare will be the same...

 

[A S Leib]

There are also massive inconsistencies with pricing, with fares down to Cornwall from Exeter noticeably cheaper than the same distances going north or east

In cases like that or the Cambrian Coast line, I think part of it's down to compensation for poorer roads and social necessity; when the drive from Exeter to Plymouth takes an hour to get 45 miles, and west of Plymouth there aren't any major cities, train services to Plymouth and Exeter play a more important role for those who need them than railways might do for somewhere like Stafford.

 

[SynthD]

I personally think making all times of day costing the same would spread out the demand. Currently we see Intercity trains, especially out of King's Cross and Euston, lesser extent St Pancras and Paddington running almost empty trains out in the morning peak. As soon as the first 'off peak' train is out, they are full and standing, especially in Euston! It's a daft system.

I don’t understand, how does having no price difference from the high demand to low demand times help the moment of highest demand? You’re looking at the 9:50, what about 8:50? You’re looking at the trains that were full in the other direction.

Maybe the revenue should be less from passengers and more from real estate or businesses.

That property is currently mostly privately owned, how will it become publicly owned?

 

[aron2smith]

Sadly a very common occurrence on the GWR part of the line. There are also massive inconsistencies with pricing, with fares down to Cornwall from Exeter noticeably cheaper than the same distances going north or east. The comments about zonal/regional fare structures should certainly be a consideration in any ticket reforms. Even as someone obsessed with rail travel, I am often loathe to pay 'walk-up' fees on the day. Even if advanced fares weren't as cheap, it would be good to have a level of consistency and reliability with knowing that if you booked, let's say, 6 weeks in advance, you had a high likelihood of getting a ticket that was 30% cheaper for example.

Also, @aron2smith I share your view about Advanced tickets versus walk ons - why is it not possible to pay the difference rather than a new ticket? After all, your total fare will be the same...

Before Covid, I was able to do these train trips for a lot less than now. One return was as low as £35 or £40 for 2 advances London to Plymouth. Managed to do a fair few for £50 to £55 when a super off peak was £75, that was when it was worth being restricted to a specific train, but trains to be more reliable than recent years. And always booked just 2 or 3 weeks before travel, since covid and the strikes, other than the rail sales, very hard to find any cheap tickets at all anymore. So now I'd prefer the flexibility, it'd be a real shame if rail fare reform ended up removing that aspect. Hence why travelcards, rovers and rangers need to stick around. Some very good value ones on GWR, especially in the south west.

And I agree with you, that's why anyone suggesting demand based pricing has no idea how detrimental that would be to ridership. What works for flights, won't work for trains. Trains are designed for far more types of journeys and I think tickets as a result need to be flexible in nature. Even better, if the price is easy to work out and the punitive element to our tickets is removed, bonus if passengers know the price by default and it's an amount that encourages trains to be the default in towns with railways.

Ironically, when I worked out a fare on my hypothetical system, it's simpler but the fares in Cornwall would more than double due to the current anomaly of low fares down there, whilst longer journeys across the country would be a fair bit cheaper. 1st class especially cheaper but it would interesting to know if they sell even 1 of those £300 or £400 or higher absurdly priced tickets a month, there's no way every configuration of rail ticket is being sold, as they are so complicated. Distance based fares with prices being the same all day would eliminate so many types of tickets!

 

[yorkie]

1. Between each pair of adjacent stations, set, and publish, a 'fare distance'. This can be the same as the actual distance, or less (e.g. in the Far North or the Heart of Wales), or more (e.g. between Bedford and St Pancras, or Slough and Paddington).
2. Set one Great British price per 'fare distance mile', in standard class.

What would those rates be for journeys such as Sherburn-in-Elmet to Whitby (an Off Peak Day Return is currently £23.30 for 99 miles each way), Reading to Paddington (£28.00 for 36 miles each way) and Poppleton to Dore & Totley (£24.00 for 54+ miles each way via Pontefract, or up to 79 miles each way via Leeds)?

3. Sell only single 'tickets', priced according to the shortest route, normally to be purchased before your journey and normally to be stored and displayed on a suitable 'device'.

Would it be permitted to travel via longer routes, thus creating anomalies, or would you introduce complexity of route specific fares?

4. Also sell sleeper supplements, at a slack, peak, or shoulder price; and seat reservations.
5. Abolish the current surcharge for travelling, seated or standing, in a crowded train which a complicated 'restriction code' deems to be 'peak'.

At present, on many long distance TOCs, there is a surcharge to travel on quiet trains; I'm not sure what you are saying here, but I think you are saying that Anytime fares be abolished and all travel is considered Off Peak?

If so, I would be happy with the principle, but would enough taxpayers support the reduction in revenue and necessary increase in capacity required on commuter services at busy times?

6. If you cannot, or choose not to, carry a suitable device, you may book by telephone, email, or WhatsApp (etc?), and be given a three word code instead of a 'ticket'.

This doesn't sound a good idea; how would this work?

7. Large discounts for groups travelling together. No age-related discounts, cards for people whose grandmothers were born in a specified county, etc.

How big do groups need to be, how big would the discount be? Presumably the aim is to make rail attractive to hen parties, groups of football supporters travelling to football games, that sort of thing, which can cause huge swings in demand.

8. Only on the train, you may purchase a 50% supplement to travel in First Class.

A 50% supplement to travel 1st would be a loss of revenue to TOCs such as LNER; where is the money coming from to cover the shortfall in revenue?

9. 100% surcharge if you are inspected and found without a 'ticket' or three word code.

What about people who board at unstaffed stations? Is there a risk that people will make up three words to try to avoid this?

10. As well as the shortest route, you may take any reasonable route.

Presumably it's reasonable to travel from York to Oxford via London, or London to Twyford via Reading, which are both permitted at present? If so, that would be a good loophole, if you are only charging one price, regardless of routeing, and if starting/finishing short is permitted.

11. I don't know what to do about journeys including the London Underground!
12. A reasonable route is any route which was allowed in 1960, or any route deemed reasonable by a panel consisting of Hadders, Yorkie, and the King's Remembrancer, who shall be suitably remunerated for their skill.
[retreats into deep bunker ...]

Sounds good to me!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

...anyone suggesting demand based pricing has no idea how detrimental that would be to ridership. What works for flights, won't work for trains. Trains are designed for far more types of journeys and I think tickets as a result need to be flexible in nature. Even better, if the price is easy to work out and the punitive element to our tickets is removed, bonus if passengers know the price by default and it's an amount that encourages trains to be the default in towns with railways...

At present, we already have demand based pricing on many routes, albeit with a 'cap' of the regulated fare.

The DfT, and companies such as LNER, are very keen to raise the cap at 'off peak' times to the Anytime rate.