Really simple fares

[Greenback]

Isn't using split advance tickets quite a risk if you get delayed? I know people are of the opinion that you are covered as the conditions of carriage allow more than one ticket to be used for a single journey but elsewhere I was told that it's your responsibility to get to the starting station of any advance ticket you have on time and in the event of any delays in getting to the starting station of each ticket you will not be covered.

This has been debated at length, but I understand that ATOC have now issued clarification to TOC's that split Adance tickets are to be regarded as one journey, and the usual conditions about being delayed during the journey are to be applied.

I stand to be corrected, although I would hope that soemone will have a link to what ATOC have actuially said!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Isn't using split advance tickets quite a risk if you get delayed? I know people are of the opinion that you are covered as the conditions of carriage allow more than one ticket to be used for a single journey but elsewhere I was told that it's your responsibility to get to the starting station of any advance ticket you have on time and in the event of any delays in getting to the starting station of each ticket you will not be covered.

This was cleared up earlier in the year, when travelling on more than one rail ticket you are covered in the event of delays provided the trains have atleast the minimum connection time at the interchange point.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48377&highlight=advance+faqs

 

[Zoe]

This has been debated at length, but I understand that ATOC have now issued clarification to TOC's that split Adance tickets are to be regarded as one journey, and the usual conditions about being delayed during the journey are to be applied.

That's good to know.

 

[Greenback]

This was cleared up earlier in the year, when travelling on more than one rail ticket you are covered in the event of delays provided the trains have atleast the minimum connection time at the interchange point.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48377&highlight=advance+faqs

Thanks for helping with the link. I was in hospital at that time, but recalled seeing something when I was catching up!

 

[Zoe]

So a split at London Terminals can count as one journey then even though the tickets will be to/from different stations?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you have an advance to London Terminals and an advance from London Terminals, you will be covered on one ticket provided that you allow the minimum connection time for cross London transfer.

If you have a separate LUL ticket to make that cross London journey you are covered for delays on that part of the journey also. However, if you have a separate tube only fare at the start of your journey, you will not be covered for any delay caused during that part of the journey.

Examples:

Exeter-Paddington-(tube)-Kings Cross-York (3 tickets) = Covered

Finchley Road-(tube)-Kings Cross-York (2 tickets) = Not covered

 

[Zoe]

Back in the 1990s my Mum did a journey from Barking to Devon on an Apex. She left in good time but there were severe delays on the London Underground so she arrived at Paddington just after the train had left. The ticket office at Paddington did not care about delays on the London Underground and excessed her to a Super Saver plus the then 5 GBP admin charge. It's good to hear that they will take into account delays on the London Underground now.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On Separate tickets? There is nothing to stop staff doing that, but it is not the way the rules are written

 

[Zoe]

On Separate tickets? There is nothing to stop staff doing that, but it is not the way the rules are written

No, it was a through ticket from Barking. The ticket office at Paddington simply did not care about the delays on the London Underground and excessed.

 

[SWTCommuter]

If you have an advance to London Terminals and an advance from London Terminals, you will be covered on one ticket provided that you allow the minimum connection time for cross London transfer.

If you have a separate LUL ticket to make that cross London journey you are covered for delays on that part of the journey also. However, if you have a separate tube only fare at the start of your journey, you will not be covered for any delay caused during that part of the journey.

Examples:

Exeter-Paddington-(tube)-Kings Cross-York (3 tickets) = Covered

Finchley Road-(tube)-Kings Cross-York (2 tickets) = Not covered

In the first example, would you still be covered if the ticket for the Exeter to Paddington leg is not an advance but an off-peak return or a season ticket?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A through ticket is always covered.

 

[Zoe]

A through ticket is always covered.

So why did the ticket office at Paddington refuse to allow the ticket to be used on a later train and charge an excess even though there were severe delays on the London Underground? Were the terms and conditions different back in the days of Apex tickets?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In the first example, would you still be covered if the ticket for the Exeter to Paddington leg is not an advance but an off-peak return or a season ticket?

Yes, you would be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So why did the ticket office at Paddington refuse to allow the ticket to be used on a later train and charge an excess even though there were severe delays on the London Underground? Were the terms and conditions different back in the days of Apex tickets?

I've just realised I read your post slightly wrong, but Apex tickets were different back then, now it's fine.

 

[SWTCommuter]

Yes, you would be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you, that's very helpful.

 

[Greenback]

So why did the ticket office at Paddington refuse to allow the ticket to be used on a later train and charge an excess even though there were severe delays on the London Underground? Were the terms and conditions different back in the days of Apex tickets?

I think they were. Yet I do think that Paddington may have made a mistake if a through Apex was held.

But there was a much lower level of availability of Apex ticekts in the late 1990's compared to today. If it was seperate tickets held then in those days they may have been correct.

 

[Nicholas43]

OK, I've bought, for argument's sake, an XC Newcastle to Swansea off peak return for £65.50. This will entitle me to get certain XC trains at no supplement, if I understand the proposal correctly.

But what happens when I get to Bristol parkway on a direct train? I then catch FGW to Swansea? What are the supplements on that train? What if I want to stop off in Cardiff for a couple of beers with my friend? I can break my journey with an off peak, but I might then catch an ATW train home.

What if I want to stop off in Birmingham to visit the Ian Allan bookshop there? Then I might want to travel to Cardiff via Gloucester! Presumably that wouldn't be allowed either, because only FGW and XC will get a share of the ticket revenue? Although without ORCATS or something similar, for journeys such as this involving two or more TOC's who is to decide who gets what?

In this example, my proposal is that you can buy a Newcastle-Swansea basic single, priced by Cross Country, routed Birmingham-Bristol Parkway-Cardiff, for about the same price as Cross Country's present genuine Advance, (not the joke advance fares they offer with a quota of 2 on some Tuesday evenings) available on any 'green' off-peak Cross-country train for the Newcastle-Bristol portion, and with the same validity as the present Advance for the Bristol-Swansea section (so, I presume, in practice any FGW or Arriva train). Valid two days (as shortly intended for all singles?) Break(s) of journey allowed.
You can pay Cross Country supplement(s) to travel on a 'red' peak train, or in First class, on all or part of the Newcastle-Bristol bit. You can pay FGW a supplement to travel First Class Bristol Swansea. You can pay Arriva a supplement not to sit in the same carriage as drunk rugby louts Sorry, no, you can't travel via Lydney. (But to do that now on a Newcastle-Swansea, it would have to be a pricey 'any permitted', wouldn't it?)

The advantages for the train companies are (a) they get more revenue than they do now from Advances (because, I think, people are put off by having to commit to a particular train) and (b) they don't have to pretend they can micro-yield-manage to exactly fill an hourly succession of trains.

 

[Greenback]

In this example, my proposal is that you can buy a Newcastle-Swansea basic single, priced by Cross Country, routed Birmingham-Bristol Parkway-Cardiff, for about the same price as Cross Country's present genuine Advance, (not the joke advance fares they offer with a quota of 2 on some Tuesday evenings) available on any 'green' off-peak Cross-country train for the Newcastle-Bristol portion, and with the same validity as the present Advance for the Bristol-Swansea section (so, I presume, in practice any FGW or Arriva train). Valid two days (as shortly intended for all singles?) Break(s) of journey allowed.
You can pay Cross Country supplement(s) to travel on a 'red' peak train, or in First class, on all or part of the Newcastle-Bristol bit. You can pay FGW a supplement to travel First Class Bristol Swansea. You can pay Arriva a supplement not to sit in the same carriage as drunk rugby louts Sorry, no, you can't travel via Lydney. (But to do that now on a Newcastle-Swansea, it would have to be a pricey 'any permitted', wouldn't it?)

The advantages for the train companies are (a) they get more revenue than they do now from Advances (because, I think, people are put off by having to commit to a particular train) and (b) they don't have to pretend they can micro-yield-manage to exactly fill an hourly succession of trains.

Given the above (apologies for thinking in terms of returns), how would the revenue from the £65.50 ticket be apportioned between XC, FGW and ATW without ORCATS a similar way of calculating the allocations?

Would there be fares for routeings such as Lydney, or Shrewsbury and Birmingham as well? (You have already mentioned via London and Manchester!).

What would happen if there delays en route? Would I then be able to change at Birmingham for a train via Gloucester, as this turned out be a bit quicker than continuing on to Bristol Parkway, as happened to me back in 2003?

There is not enough flexibility for rail travel compared with the private car. You don;t have to stick to your preplanend route when driving. You can stop where you wish and decide to take a different route if circumstances change. Your proposals seem to restrict flexibility even more, and there are still people who value this benefit, and are willing to pay more for it.

Your ideas appear to be based on the misconception that ORCATS is at the root of high rail fares, and your plans are too focussed in getting rid of it. As with the routeing guide, the ebst way of describing ORCATS in my opinion is a necessary evil. The existence of such a system is beneficial to rail customers overall, as it allows interavailability and flexibility. To remove it, without a replcement system in place, seems to me to be reckless and almost guaranteed to brign and end to the benefits that were fought for at privatisation.