Reading to London

[richardhall99]

I have just realised it is quicker to buy a season ticket for Reading to Twyford and Twyford to London 1-6 than it is to get a Reading to London 1-6

via Twyford is 102
Straight through 124 or something like that

Is there an issue having two rail cards and would this cause an issue if I arrived at Paddington on a train that didnt stop in Twyford

Appreciate your help

 

[maniacmartin]

If you are combining these 2 season tickets, you must take trains that make a schedule call at Twyford (and not merely pass through). See section 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage for details of how you can combine multiple tickets for one journey. This combination would fall under 19b

 

[bb21]

As maniacmartin said, not permitted if it is two season tickets.

It is however permitted if for one of these you buy daily single/return tickets.

 

[tony_mac]

I think there's some mistake in those calculations anyway.

Twyford - Zones 1-6 is £102 on its own.

 

[RJ]

I have just realised it is quicker to buy a season ticket for Reading to Twyford and Twyford to London 1-6 than it is to get a Reading to London 1-6

via Twyford is 102
Straight through 124 or something like that

Is there an issue having two rail cards and would this cause an issue if I arrived at Paddington on a train that didnt stop in Twyford

Appreciate your help

Right, there are two standard class Travelcard season tickets available from Twyford.

1. Twyford - London Zones 1 - 6 via Reading is £123.10 a week.

2. Twyford - London Zones 1 - 6 routed not via Reading is £102.40 a week. This is not valid to travel via Reading. Reading to Twyford is £18.60 a week, combined this would total £121 a week. Not a great saving considering the inferior service from Twyford. Plus, with this combination, you would be required to use trains that stop at Twyford.

Reading - London Zones 1 - 6 is £124 a week.

There are ways to save on the Reading to Paddington corridor using split tickets, but you have to think outside the box.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

1. Twyford - London Zones 1 - 6 via Reading is £123.10 a week.

With the frequency of the non-stop services between London and Reading, it is often quicker to travel the one stop outwards from Twyford to Reading and then double back on the fasts. It almost works for Maidenhead as the next station.

Twyford does benefit from peak hour fast services also intended to serve the Henley branch.

 

[yorkie]

I have just realised it is quicker to buy a season ticket for Reading to Twyford and Twyford to London 1-6 than it is to get a Reading to London 1-6

This is, in fact, slower, as it would only be valid on trains that call at Twyford.

The fast trains do not call at Twyford. There are some semi-fast trains which call at Twyford only, but there are not so many of those.

via Twyford is 102
Straight through 124 or something like that

You mean Twyford to London Zones 1-6 routed not via Reading is £102. http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=TWY&dest=0035&rte=810&tkt=7TS

Reading to London Zones 1-6 is £126 http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=0035&tkt=7TS

Twyford to London Zones 1-6 routed via Reading is £123.10 http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=TWY&dest=0035&rte=826&tkt=7TS

Is there an issue having two rail cards and would this cause an issue if I arrived at Paddington on a train that didnt stop in Twyford

Appreciate your help

Neither of these Season tickets are Railcards; these are two separate concepts. A Railcard discount isn't available on Season tickets.

If you caught a train that was non-stop between Reading & Paddington then you can be treated as not having a valid ticket between Reading & London.

If you caught a train that was non-stop between Reading & Slough, then you can be treated as not having a valid ticket between Reading & Slough.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Reading to London Zones 1-6 is £126 http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=0035&tkt=7TS

Twyford to London Zones 1-6 routed via Reading is £123.10 http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=TWY&dest=0035&rte=826&tkt=7TS

That's an anomaly which could be exploited by Reading commuters if they were prepared to accept being incorrectly told every so often that they weren't allowed to enter or leave the platforms at Reading.

 

[RJ]

Re: thinking outside the box;

Ashford to London Zones 5 - 6 is valid via Reading as far as West Drayton for £27.10 a week.

A London Zones 1 - 6 7 day season is £57.20. Although you are changing tickets at West Drayton, you may use trains that don't stop there - this is permitted by the NRCoC Condition 19a.

Total cost is £84.30 a week. For the time being, it's a valid combination for use on express trains between Reading and Paddington - though I can't guarantee that barrier staff at Reading and on board staff won't take exception to it.

 

[yorkie]

That's an anomaly which could be exploited by Reading commuters if they were prepared to accept being incorrectly told every so often that they weren't allowed to enter or leave the platforms at Reading.

Indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... though I can't guarantee that barrier staff at Reading and on board staff won't take exception to it.

Given they're not trained on how to determine permitted routes, you're right they may.

 

[bb21]

Re: thinking outside the box;

Ashford to London Zones 5 - 6 is valid via Reading as far as West Drayton for £27.10 a week.

A London Zones 1 - 6 7 day season is £57.20. Although you are changing tickets at West Drayton, you may use trains that don't stop there - this is permitted by the NRCoC Condition 19a.

Total cost is £84.30 a week. For the time being, it's a valid combination for use on express trains between Reading and Paddington - though I can't guarantee that barrier staff at Reading and on board staff won't take exception to it.

I do not recommend anyone inexperienced with the fares system to use that combination. Ashford to London Zones 5-6 is quite clearly not meant to be valid via Reading. It is not priced as such and there is no logical reason why it should. Chances are barrier staff will take exception to it, and disputes will likely arise on a regular basis.

On top of that, the only "proof" we have in how to determine permitted routes in the case of outboundary Travelcards is not something as robust as it should be imo. They can be easily changed, especially if ATOC get wind of how this is being exploited. I have reservations as to how much weight it will carry in a court of law should a dispute proceed that far, unless there is something more substantial that I am not aware of.

I have no problem with someone fully conversant in fares matters going ahead with it provided that he is fully prepared, but someone who is not may find himself in a highly unpleasant situation.

 

[RJ]

On top of that, the only "proof" we have in how to determine permitted routes in the case of outboundary Travelcards is not something as robust as it should be imo. They can be easily changed, especially if ATOC get wind of how this is being exploited. I have reservations as to how much weight it will carry in a court of law should a dispute proceed that far, unless there is something more substantial that I am not aware of.

Type Ashford Surrey to West Drayton into the National Rail Enquires season ticket calculator. The first suggestion is an Ashford to London - Zones 5-6 Travelcard. It also says you have to pay a lot more if you want to go via London or Windsor.

Type Ashford Surrey to West Drayton via Reading into the National Rail Enquires Journey Planner. It offers the Any Permitted fare for this journey.

A Zone 1 - 6 Travelcard covers the remainder of the distance - the tickets can be combined for one journey without the additional requirement for the train to stop.

NRE is now the definitive source of information on routing validity. If I was a Reading commuter, I would use that combination. On these forums, I'd never advise anyone to use any tickets in a way I wouldn't them myself.

I think it's about time railway staff were given a bit more credit! Those who aren't au fait with unusual ticketing arrangements will know how to deal with the situation as appropriate - by giving the benefit of the doubt and maybe following up the matter internally. I'm aware that a tiny minority of staff will create problems with the way they handle these situations. That said, I find the overwhelming majority of staff will use common sense and handle the matter professionally.

 

[CyrusWuff]

ATOC would no doubt argue along the lines of "You can't just pick a random station in Zone 6 when doing a routeing check for an 'out-boundary' Travelcard. It has to be on the direct line of route between the origin station and the relevant London terminal(s)."

So you couldn't say that Coulsdon South, for example, was on a permitted route from Cambridge towards London. "Relevant" stations would be Hadley Wood, Crews Hill, Turkey Street and Enfield Lock. YMMV, of course.

 

[bb21]

ATOC would no doubt argue along the lines of "You can't just pick a random station in Zone 6 when doing a routeing check for an 'out-boundary' Travelcard. It has to be on the direct line of route between the origin station and the relevant London terminal(s)."

That was exactly my point.

The problem is not that Reading is not on a permitted route between Ashford and West Drayton, rather that West Drayton is not intended to be an appropriate station full stop.

I know there is some communication from ATOC that says otherwise, however I am not convinced by its robustness. In my opinion, that is quite obviously taking the pee. In the absence of anything definitive from a public source, I remain unconvinced.

 

[RJ]

The problem is not that Reading is not on a permitted route between Ashford and West Drayton, rather that West Drayton is not intended to be an appropriate station full stop.

The National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner says it is. The season ticket calculator also suggests an Ashford to London Zones 5 - 6 Travelcard for an Ashford to West Drayton journey - which would suggest that it is an "appropriate station."

The exact same applies to Iver to Feltham. There is a consistent pattern here with other journeys as well. If National Rail says it's a permitted route, it's a permitted route.

ATOC would no doubt argue along the lines of "You can't just pick a random station in Zone 6 when doing a routeing check for an 'out-boundary' Travelcard. It has to be on the direct line of route between the origin station and the relevant London terminal(s)."

So you couldn't say that Coulsdon South, for example, was on a permitted route from Cambridge towards London. "Relevant" stations would be Hadley Wood, Crews Hill, Turkey Street and Enfield Lock. YMMV, of course.

That journey would require you to pass through zones which are not covered by the Travelcard, which I agree should not be permitted.

 

[hassaanhc]

The National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner says it is. The season ticket calculator also suggests an Ashford to London Zones 5 - 6 Travelcard for an Ashford to West Drayton journey - which would suggest that it is an "appropriate station."

What is the shortest route by rail for that journey these days anyway?

Ashford to Windsor & Eton Riverside, walk to Windsor & Eton Central, change at Slough for West Drayton

Scrap that, someone's didn't read the question! I've seen NRE offer an itinerary involving the walk, likewise between North Camp and Ash Vale. But neither of those are wholly by rail

 

[RJ]

The shortest route by rail is always valid - the powers that be get around this by putting a route restriction on the ticket.

If the season ticket calculator offers an outboundary Zones 5 - 6 Travelcard for a journey, it will only be because there is a permitted route to a Zone 6 station which avoids going further into London. Most of the time, this will be as per CyrusWuff's allusion to the direct line of route.

In the case of Ashford to West Drayton and Iver to Feltham, that route is via Reading. This is a symptom of the GWML being severed from the south (east of Reading) when the passenger service link was broken between Kensington Olympia and the GWML. Most of the lines north of London are joined up by the NLL and south of London, connections at places like Sutton, Wimbledon, West Croydon and Crystal Palace basically form an orbital line. If there is a permitted route involving travel in London, it will offer more zones to cover this.

It doesn't work to the Chilterns because it looks like the journey planner treats the Central Line as part of the NR network between Greenford and South Ruislip.

 

[bb21]

The National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner says it is. The season ticket calculator also suggests an Ashford to London Zones 5 - 6 Travelcard for an Ashford to West Drayton journey - which would suggest that it is an "appropriate station."

It does not give me the Zones 5 - 6 option for Ashford - West Drayton.

 

[RJ]

To clarify, all my references to Ashford in this thread have been to Ashford Surrey (AFS)

 

[bb21]

Oops. Excuse me then.

 

[OwlMan]

The problem I can see that if you get a fast train from Reading to Paddington your journey is obviously to London not West Drayton. AIUI the rule for boundary zone tickets is to any boundary point (without travelling within the zones) on a permitted route to your destination - which in this case does not include via Reading.
If you made your destination West Drayton (presumably by leaving the station) then NRE says it is valid

 

[maniacmartin]

But we don't look at the journey as a whole when doing non-Boundary Zone tickets, so why should we in this case? I can't see any reason why routes for each ticket in the split shouldn't be considered individually.

That said, I would be wary of this split for the reasons bb21 mentions

 

[OwlMan]

But we don't look at the journey as a whole when doing non-Boundary Zone tickets, so why should we in this case? I can't see any reason why routes for each ticket in the split shouldn't be considered individually.

That said, I would be wary of this split for the reasons bb21 mentions

But a boundary zone ticket is not valid on its own it is an extension to a travelcard so it is not a standard split.
You effectively have an Ashford to Zones 1-6 travelcard which is not valid to London via Reading.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It's a completely reasonable idea that if you had a Zone 1-6 Season and wished to travel to Reading, that you should only pay for the West Drayton to Reading section.

It fuels anomalies that a season ticket allows the "train must stop" rules to be avoided. Were it possible, a rule that said that you had to buy the full ticket, Paddington to Reading in this case, but you would get a discounted price by virtue of having the Zone 1-6 Season might work rather better.

It's also struck me that if travelling from a Thames Valley station to Zone 2, the cheapest, if slowest, route would be to purchase a <Local Station> to West Drayton ticket. Then you get off the train at West Drayton and start an Oyster journey. You will lose 15 minutes unless you can get to the barriers and back before your train leaves. You then change at Ealing Broadway to the Central or District lines. Similarly on the return, you end the Oyster journey at West Drayton rather than Ealing.

 

[RJ]

But a boundary zone ticket is not valid on its own it is an extension to a travelcard so it is not a standard split.
You effectively have an Ashford to Zones 1-6 travelcard which is not valid to London via Reading.

I wouldn't want to overcomplicate things so. Condition 19 stipulates that the combination must cover the entire journey and meet at least one of the stipulated conditions...which it does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem I can see that if you get a fast train from Reading to Paddington your journey is obviously to London not West Drayton. AIUI the rule for boundary zone tickets is to any boundary point (without travelling within the zones) on a permitted route to your destination - which in this case does not include via Reading.
If you made your destination West Drayton (presumably by leaving the station) then NRE says it is valid

Condition 19 has objective elements that have to be met to use it.

1. Does the combination tickets cover the entire journey?

2. Does the combination of tickets and trains used comply with at least one of the criteria shown in parts a, b or c?

3. Are restrictions shown on the tickets being complied with?

The combination I suggested covers the entire journey. Both tickets are zonal and are routeď Any Permitted. I don't think anything else needs considering.

The destination only ought to be considered if you're doing something like combining two journeys with one ticket. Not relevant to a Condition 19 split.

Am I right in thinking you are saying an Ashford to Zones 5-6 season ticket and an Ashford to Boundary Zone 6 ticket have the same permited routes to a Zone 6 station? For the former, ATOC have provided a tool to check which stations in Zone 6 are appropriate in the form of the season ticket calculator. For the latter, there is no such thing. I share bb21's views on the lack of official documentation to cover this. I don't think they ought to be treated in the same vein unless ATOC say so.

 

[OwlMan]

Both tickets are zonal and are routeď Any Permitted.

An Ashford to Zones 5&6 travelcard is not a zonal ticket, the Ashford to the boundary of zone 6 is not zonal and is effectively a point to point ticket. (According to the defintion of a zonal card it is a zonal card travelling towards London but not away from London)

ikb
valid to any of a group of stations in a zone

The definition of an Outboundary travelcard in iKB confirms that it allows a journey to the boundary of zone 6

iKB
Travelcards issued for travel from stations outside Zones 1-6 of the London Fare Zones area are referred to as ‘Out-boundary’ and include one return journey between the origin station shown on the ticket, and the boundary of Fare Zone 6, i.e. Boundary Zone 6.
Travelcard Seasons - available for periods of 7 days, and for any period between one month and one year, and can be issued for travel in any or combination of two or more adjacent zones. Travelcards issued for travel from rail stations outside the Travelcard area are known as ‘Out-boundary Travelcards’ and are also valid for unlimited travel, within the validity of the ticket, on National Rail services between the starting station and the Travelcard boundary.

An Ashford - Zones 5-6 travelcard is an Ashford - Boundary Zone 6 plus a zones 5&6 travelcard.
If that is not true then a Southern Only travelcard would not be valid on other TOCs within the Travelcard Zone. I assume that you agree that it is only "Southern Only" up to the Boundary of Zone 6.



However I agree that this whole debate about travelcards & boundary zones is very poorly documented and some clarification would be a help.

 

[lightbulb]

An Ashford to Zones 5&6 travelcard is not a zonal ticket, the Ashford to the boundary of zone 6 is not zonal and is effectively a point to point ticket. (According to the defintion of a zonal card it is a zonal card travelling towards London but not away from London)


The definition of an Outboundary travelcard in iKB confirms that it allows a journey to the boundary of zone 6


An Ashford - Zones 5-6 travelcard is an Ashford - Boundary Zone 6 plus a zones 5&6 travelcard.
If that is not true then a Southern Only travelcard would not be valid on other TOCs within the Travelcard Zone. I assume that you agree that it is only "Southern Only" up to the Boundary of Zone 6.



However I agree that this whole debate about travelcards & boundary zones is very poorly documented and some clarification would be a help.

Where does "Southern Only" come into it? The Ashford in question is Ashford (Surrey), in SWT land, not Ashford International...

 

[OwlMan]

Where does "Southern Only" come into it? The Ashford in question is Ashford (Surrey), in SWT land, not Ashford International...

A suthern only travelcard (from stations south of Croydon) is considered as two tickets - southern only to the boundary of zone 6 and a travelcard.
It shows that outboundary travelcards are considered as two tickets

 

[RJ]

An Ashford to Zones 5&6 travelcard is not a zonal ticket, the Ashford to the boundary of zone 6 is not zonal and is effectively a point to point ticket. (According to the defintion of a zonal card it is a zonal card travelling towards London but not away from London)


The definition of an Outboundary travelcard in iKB confirms that it allows a journey to the boundary of zone 6


An Ashford - Zones 5-6 travelcard is an Ashford - Boundary Zone 6 plus a zones 5&6 travelcard.
If that is not true then a Southern Only travelcard would not be valid on other TOCs within the Travelcard Zone. I assume that you agree that it is only "Southern Only" up to the Boundary of Zone 6.



However I agree that this whole debate about travelcards & boundary zones is very poorly documented and some clarification would be a help.

A Travelcard is by definition a zonal ticket - www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46575.aspx . Given West Drayton is in Zone 6, it's safe to say that the zonal element is being used at that point.

Point taken about an outboundary Travelcard having two elements to it - but the splitting point is within the London zones. For the purposes of Condition 19, the combination meets the necessary criteria. At my station, I get a few Zone 2-5 Travelcard holders wanting to get into and around Central London. I give them a Zone 1-2 Day Travelcard and tell them they can take a non stop train to the London terminal - should I not be doing this?

 

[Tetchytyke]

A suthern only travelcard (from stations south of Croydon) is considered as two tickets - southern only to the boundary of zone 6 and a travelcard.
It shows that outboundary travelcards are considered as two tickets

I'm not sure why that's relevant though.

An Ashford Surrey to Zones 5-6 season ticket has validity to the "inside" boundary of zone 5. A Zones 1-6 season ticket has validity to the "outside" of zone 6. There is no gap between zones and both tickets are "zonal" within zones 5 and 6.

A Zones 1-4 season ticket has validity to the "outside" of zone 4. I was under the impression this is the same hypothetical place as the "inside" of zone 5, so I don't know why you'd need a zones 1-6 season ticket.

This combination of tickets would be valid if you were to travel via Windsor and into Paddington. I don't agree that this combination of tickets is valid via Reading, though, as the shortest route by rail is via Windsor and the short walk between stations. But this is an argument that's been raised before with the walk across Bradford, among other places, and I actually think that FCC's actions at St Albans (desperately inserting restrictions to prevent Abbey Line tickets being used via City station to London and Elstree & Borehamwood) show that a short walk is included as the shortest route by rail.