Of course if the bus service is rubbish, that’s another reason to spend £300m+ on a new railway !
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Re-opening Colne to Skipton
- Thread starter SouthwestMann
- Start date
- Status
Of course if the bus service is rubbish, that’s another reason to spend £300m+ on a new railway !
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
A few observations (and there have been plenty before)
Someone asked about patronage pre the closure , and the point was made that it was difficult to enumerate as the 2 car diesel trains were often empty , east of Colne. (apart of course for the last days of operation)
Sunday 2 hourly train services from Manchester to Colne , funded by the SRA were withdrawn for lack of patronage , and diverted to give Clithero an hourly frequency.
The comments on bus services are (probably) a reflection of the real demand. They could of course be increased for a "reasonable" cost , at a fraction of heavy rail costs , not just opex but capital costs.
Someone else made the point that the restitution of the rail service was really all about joining the dots upon a railway map.
Someone asked about patronage pre the closure , and the point was made that it was difficult to enumerate as the 2 car diesel trains were often empty , east of Colne. (apart of course for the last days of operation)
Sunday 2 hourly train services from Manchester to Colne , funded by the SRA were withdrawn for lack of patronage , and diverted to give Clithero an hourly frequency.
The comments on bus services are (probably) a reflection of the real demand. They could of course be increased for a "reasonable" cost , at a fraction of heavy rail costs , not just opex but capital costs.
Someone else made the point that the restitution of the rail service was really all about joining the dots upon a railway map.
Buffer stop allergy!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Altered that for you...Of course if the bus service patronage is rubbish, that’s another reason to spend £300m+ on a new railway !
Exactly.
There are at least four reopenings in England that should take priority. Fawley, Ashington, Portishead and Middlewich. While we have a government keen on reopenings the priority should be getting those that are straightforward done. That will always be the proposals where there is track but no passenger service. All of them will be cheaper than 12 miles of reopened line, closed 50 years ago.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The problem occurs when a crayonista takes it upon himself to join up the dots...
I'll throw in re-introducing passenger services on the existing Ivanhoe line, between Leicester and Burton on Trent.
Leicester, pop. ~360,000 people.
Coalville, pop ~ 35,000 (no rail services at all)
Ashby de la Zouch ~13,000 (no rail services at all)
Swadlincote ~33,000 (no rail services at all)
Burton on Trent, pop ~73,000
It's a good comparison to Colne-Skipton because there's towns on the Ivanhoe line which are larger than both Colne and Skipton and yet have no rail services at all, despite the line still being in place. They also don't have fast pubic transport to Leicester as the local major city, and Burton for rail journeys further afield.
Halifaxlad
Established Member
I go back to my earlier point: perhaps the line should be extended from Colne to
Barnoldswick (about 5 milles) that has a population of 11,000 with (no rail services at all) ?
Barnoldswick (about 5 milles) that has a population of 11,000 with (no rail services at all) ?
It's a moot point:
While Barnoldswick was moved into Lancashire, it still looks more towards Skipton AIUI - when the diocesan boundaries were altered 5 years ago, the church council argued, and the authorities agreed, that it (and Earby) should not move to Blackburn diocese.
The bus company operates from the Burnley end, with 2bph to Barnoldswick via Earby as well as the Skipton bus, which might support your argument. There is certainly no case for Skipton to Barnoldswick alone!
Which would achieve what? Apart from spending some money.
It's worth comparing the usage of Colne station vs that of nearby Clitheroe.
The populations are 18,000 for Colne and 17,000 for Clitheroe. Yet the station usages are Colne about 80,000 whereas Clitheroe is about 300,000.
Both only have services heading west / south rather than east towards the Aire valley. Both are effectively branch lines (Clitheroe doesn't have a regular east bound passenger service).
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Not sure I would use Diocesan boundaries as a guide - parishes can be quite capricious about such things. And the decision can be swayed by not wanting "x" as the bishop because of their views on "y".
Last edited:
Problem is that would trigger the need for an extra diagram on the branch (and a pretty unproductive one, sitting at Barnoldswick for around 45 minutes at least per hour), which would struggle a value for money test.
Flying Claret
Member
- Joined
- 14 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 232
The comparison with clitheroe is a good one. However it's worth bearing in mind that the clitheroe service takes you to Manchester rather than blackpoo, so possibly better suited to the commuter flows.
D6130
Established Member
A typo?....or a rather appropriate Freudian slip?
Agreed - but if that were relevant, why are SELRAP et al obsessing about rebuilding a dozen or so miles of track to a small market town rather than campaigning for a decent link to Britain's 2nd largest city, a major employment hub, either as a direct service or with sensible connections ?
I know only too well - but in this case (unlike most of the others that were transferred - some of them into my Deanery!) the Commission supported them.
To which a half-hourly branch service would help - give a good connection at either Rose Grove (for via Todmorden) or Blackburn (via Bolton).
Maybe so - but that would need a passing loop. It should still be possible to achieve something with the current service levels.
Currently there is a service at xx.34 from Rose Grove to Manchester. The xx.11 from Colne arrives at Rose Grove at xx.30 so that's pretty good.
The return from Manchester Vic arrives at Rose Grove at xx.54 but the Colne train leaves at xx.46 which isn't so good.
Flying Claret
Member
- Joined
- 14 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 232
That probably tells you all you need to know about SELRAP. Like I mentioned earlier, in my opinion those communities should be a focusing on an increased service and connections to Manchester. They need to be realistic and pragmatic.
Andrew1395
Member
The local economy and workforce characteristics (i would throw in comparing house prices as a short cut) is a useful way to gauge if a new railway passenger service is likely to work. You cant compare Clitheroe to Colne. Yes they are similar sizes and nearby, but they are apples and pears. Once that posh school at Clitheroe used to charter term time special trains of 11 coaches to Euston to get its boarders back to the Home Counties.
Thirty Five plus years ago I worked at AM Preston which had responsibility for operational services from Blackpool to Colne (and also had responsibility for Skipton - hence the white rose on the area tie). I attended East Lancs passenger group meetings with BR.
At that time our Area Manager was exasperated that his good news about investment was always met with demands to reopen to Skipton. He said it was hopelessly unrealistic to think that a reopening would ever get anywhere near the top of the list.
He felt that interested local stakeholders should focus efforts promoting the investment in the new 142 pacer trains, new timetables with through trains to Blackpool South, computerised on board ticketing (PORTIS), and the new Burnley Manchester Road station (sponsored through the merger of the Burnley Building Soiciety with the Bradford based Provincial), etc.
Of course this was a time less than twenty years after the closure of steam in the area and the lineside still had that shrunken feel of dereliction that rationalisation had left. It was also the time the BRB wanted to close the Settle & Carlisle. So you could argue that of course there was no prospect then of a reopening.
Times have moved on, but i am not sure how the world has changed more in the East Lancs region than the rest of the country, that now makes a reopening more likely to be near the top of any list.
Personally i would think if reinstating that bit of track at Ormskirk has not occurred in the years since I was at Preston, Colne-Skipton has no chance.
Thirty Five plus years ago I worked at AM Preston which had responsibility for operational services from Blackpool to Colne (and also had responsibility for Skipton - hence the white rose on the area tie). I attended East Lancs passenger group meetings with BR.
At that time our Area Manager was exasperated that his good news about investment was always met with demands to reopen to Skipton. He said it was hopelessly unrealistic to think that a reopening would ever get anywhere near the top of the list.
He felt that interested local stakeholders should focus efforts promoting the investment in the new 142 pacer trains, new timetables with through trains to Blackpool South, computerised on board ticketing (PORTIS), and the new Burnley Manchester Road station (sponsored through the merger of the Burnley Building Soiciety with the Bradford based Provincial), etc.
Of course this was a time less than twenty years after the closure of steam in the area and the lineside still had that shrunken feel of dereliction that rationalisation had left. It was also the time the BRB wanted to close the Settle & Carlisle. So you could argue that of course there was no prospect then of a reopening.
Times have moved on, but i am not sure how the world has changed more in the East Lancs region than the rest of the country, that now makes a reopening more likely to be near the top of any list.
Personally i would think if reinstating that bit of track at Ormskirk has not occurred in the years since I was at Preston, Colne-Skipton has no chance.
Flying Claret
Member
- Joined
- 14 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 232
Living in the area, I totally agree with all of this. The focus should be on promoting and improving the existing links, not wasting time on unrealistic pipe dreams. Look how difficult it was to get the Tod curve, and that serves Manchester, not Earby and Skipton.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
If there really is a load of untapped demand then I'd suggest SELRAP and partners focus on a dedicated bus link to meet the train at Colne and run fast to Skipton. Let's see how busy that is every hour, mid-week.
As mentioned elsewhere, such a bus link could be provided for a decade for less than the cost of the feasibility / development necessary to get the reopening to a point where it would be ready for a TWAO submission. (And that assumes all passengers travel for free).
The reality is there is already an hourly bus, which starts back at Burnley and covers the journey to Colne in a competitive time and serves Barnoldswick en route to Skipton. Not sure why it needs to connect with the Colne train when it starts back at Burnley to begin with.
You'd have to retime the service ex Victoria as there's no slack in the Colne timetable - unless you closed Nelson to Colne altogether and ran a dedicated bus connection which could actually reach the centre of Colne.
Retiming the whole Calder Valley might be a tad complicated....
Or perhaps a double buffer stop and use one of these ULV things
Halifaxlad
Established Member
A rail service to Barnoldswick ?
Why would it ? Ideally it should have a half hour service frequency!
Wasn't a bit problem with the Tod Curve that it was in Calderdale where there was little/zero benefit to the local authority ?
As for buses to Skipton I don't know why people seem to think SELRAP only wants to get to Skipton, they want services to Leeds!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The Todmorden Curve was funded by grant application monies that were split between that particular line section and the restoration of the Weavers Triangle complex in Burnley.
Because the current service has a 4 minute turnround time at Colne. Going any further is going to need an extra unit.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Which immediately has extra cost implications.
Flying Claret
Member
- Joined
- 14 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 232
They could get that by campaigning for better connections at Rose grove for about 1/100th of the cost. But I don't see how Nelson-Leeds is full of untapped demand.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Something like £500,000 or so a year. Rental and OPEX for another 2 car , plus say 4 sets of train crew.
No chance - Barnoldswick doesn't even meet Altnabraec's reopening criteria - that's a starter for 10.
And they're barking at the moon quite frankly. They would be *far* better off campaigning for and securing a better journey time to Manchester - there is far more demand for travel to Manchester than there is for Leeds. That, at least, is a reasonable aspiration and one which can be achieved without layimg a further metre of track - which is why they won't do that, because it isn't interesting or sexy enough - yet it would far better meet the needs of more local people.
- Status