Re-openening Colne to Skipton, 'Financially Viable'

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I cannot see how the line would justify wholesale re-doubling when the Blackpool North line is considered the dominant flow.

That point did not seem to bother the original builders of the line unduly. As has been said previously, the existing little-used Clitheroe to Hellifield line section remained double track even after services were originally withdrawn.

Whenever I see what St Annes-on-Sea railway station now looks like, it is naught but a sad reflection on what this railway station used to once resemble. At least the J R Taylor department store there has not yet been turned into a Poundland outlet to fit into the general demise of the area around the railway station.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

No, you build infrastructure that allows for the timetable growth with some resilliance. If that ends up being a couple of passing loops then thats what you build. I cannot see how the line would justify wholesale re-doubling when the Blackpool North line is considered the dominant flow.

As Blackpool South line has been made single track, and one 2 coach pacer train an hour, that is bound to suppress growth.
Sadly Central station was closed. (Big Mistake, not Beeching's fault, but Blackpool Council)
South Station is in the main family tourist area, (Pleasure Beach, Sandcastle etc) and much better sited in relation to buses, trams and a large car park. It also connects Lytham St Annes. Buses constantly pound the route.
Blackpool South line is occupied for 50 minutes in the hour, leaving little margin in the timetable.
2tph would result in 3x plus the number of passengers.

 

[The Planner]

That may well be the case, but why would an extra train require full re-doubling? it wouldnt, you could probably get 3tph along the 12mile stretch without doing the whole lot with some re-signalling and passing loops. It isn't a slow line at 70mph but I doubt it is driveable with the stations as close together as they are.

 

[edwin_m]

The other option that gets mentioned from time to time is to convert some or all of the Blackpool South line to tramway or tram-train with a link to the tram near Pleasure Beach.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

The problem with that is that two of the three you mention already have an hourly connecting service with a journey time not much different from what it would be via Colne. And re-routeing it would benefit Colne, Skipton, Keighley etc but disbenefit Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge etc which are larger populations and probably need the connectivity more.

Absolutely. Thanks to IIRC DarrenR in another thread, I'd like to point out the current passenger numbers of the six stations from Rose Grove to Colne plus Burnley Manchester Road total 0.75million, much the same as that of the small town of Hebden Bridge alone, let alone the millions at Halifax and Bradford.

I know that one of Burnley and Pendle's major problems is that it has one of the least mobile work forces in the country, but I'm afraid to say that in my opinion that £100m (say) would be far better spent improving education and providing more local employment opportunities. Building a line from Colne to Skipton at the moment would in my view be a complete white elephant.

Lancashire County Council's district profiles of Burnley and Pendle make depressing reading.

 

[yorksrob]

Excellent. If the project is financially viable (as opposed to viable on a socio-economic basis), then it will turn a profit when allowing for the full costs of operation, construction and asset replacement. Can we expect a share offering?

The bet laid in one of my first ever posts still stands, and has not been accepted...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40524&page=9 #124

I know I'm getting old, but surely it's not 2030 already

Incidentally, the 2008 Lewes - Uckfield study found that the route would turn an operating profit (i.e. cover it's operating costs) yet our cost benefit analysis throws out the case in terms of capital input.

Incidentally, if you're against developments that are viable on a socio-economic basis only, presumably you're against all new roads, since unless these are toll roads, they have to be justified entirely on a socio-economic basis.

 

[IanD]

Great News, SELRAP has just released a press release in to the reopening of the Colne to Skipton Rail Line

Shame they can't keep their website up to date. "Cravenrail 17 is now available" - from 2012, and simply regurgitating most of the content of Cravenrail 16, 15, 14.....

I would have some sympathy for and support this group if they actually seemed to make progress from one year to the next.

Time to pull your fingers out.

 

[55018ballymoss]

I do wish SELRAP all the luck with progressing the reopening the Skipton to Colne line. If the report says it is financially viable, hopefully somewhere someone will progress this and put up the money.
I am fascinated by the suggestions of a chord at Hellifield linking the Blackburn and Skipton lines. I am guessing that no one who has suggested this has actually examined the area? The line from Blackburn arrives in Hellifield climbing at steeper than 1 in 100 for the last mile, and to build a right hand chord would require a very substantial embankment for the whole distance between the lines. This is without mentioning that it would also require compulsory purchase of the whole housing estate that has been built where the old exchange sidings used to exist between the two lines.
So, whilst it seems a good idea, I would suggest the cost of it would outweigh the benefits.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned previously upon the thread, but as far back as April 1886, tentative proposals were examined for the construction of a railway from the North Lancashire Loop Line section of the Blackburn to Colne line (which served the stations of Great Harwood, Simonstone and Padiham) from just past the village of Read near to the Martrholme viaduct, which would make a connection with the Blackburn and Hellifield Railway, just south of Clitheroe.

This would have entailed a number of large embankments being constructed and a three-arch viaduct over Sabden Brook, near to The Devil's Elbow. However, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway felt these infrastructural costs were far too high and the project was declined.

 

[Leylandlad]

It's had me thinking a bit (dangerous as that is ) about whether a through service from Leeds-Hellifield (reversal) -Blackburn-Preston/Blackpool would be worth a try, maybe 2-3 trains a day.

Or extend a couple of the Manchester-Clitheroe services through to Leeds via Hellifield.

What I would say to those who don't think Colne-Skipton is viable, just remember 30 years ago the Copy Pit line was virtually disused, now it's thriving.

Put the money into the railways (wisely) and people will use them, as I keep telling my mate Tim Farron

 

[LateThanNever]

I know I'm getting old, but surely it's not 2030 already

Incidentally, the 2008 Lewes - Uckfield study found that the route would turn an operating profit (i.e. cover it's operating costs) yet our cost benefit analysis throws out the case in terms of capital input.

Incidentally, if you're against developments that are viable on a socio-economic basis only, presumably you're against all new roads, since unless these are toll roads, they have to be justified entirely on a socio-economic basis.

Quite! Needs publicity - probably on this forum!

 

[yorksrob]

Quite! Needs publicity - probably on this forum!

It will be interesting to see whether the Tavistock line gets built within budget, as that sort cost (£25m) must surely bring projects such as this into the more affordable bracket. Admittedly, this route has some bridging issues at either end, but perhaps these could be shuffled to the road budget.

 

[The Planner]

Tavistock is that cheap because there is next to sod all S&C and signalling involved. Starting adding that and prices will rise exponentially.

 

[Darren R]

I don't see any point in running a Leeds - Hellifield - Blackburn - Blackpool service even as an experiment. What market does this serve that is not currently served via Copy Pit? Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Hellifield and Clitheroe - none of which could be described as a teeming metropolis. With a journey time longer (by about a quarter of an hour), and by-passing the bigger markets of Bradford, Halifax, Burnley and Accrington I don't see how it serves any purpose. And it certainly doesn't do anything for the Burnley - Colne - Skipton corridor which is surely the point at issue?

 

[Bald Rick]

Incidentally, if you're against developments that are viable on a socio-economic basis only, presumably you're against all new roads, since unless these are toll roads, they have to be justified entirely on a socio-economic basis.

Oh I'm all for projects with a positive socio-economic case, even if the finances are terrible. This press release seems to imply that reopening is viable on a financial basis, which means that it is viable even without the socio-economic benefits. If that is the case, then it could be built with private finance raised on the markets, as those putting up the cash would get a return.

I suspect, however, that this is wishful thinking. Let's see what the report says.

 

[yorksrob]

Tavistock is that cheap because there is next to sod all S&C and signalling involved. Starting adding that and prices will rise exponentially.

Put it this way. Tavistock, they will have to put in a junction at Bere Alston.

Cplne, is at the end of a single track branch already, so they will have to put a junction in at Skipton.

Signalling wise, these aren‘t miles apart from eachother.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Put it this way. Tavistock, they will have to put in a junction at Bere Alston.

Cplne, is at the end of a single track branch already, so they will have to put a junction in at Skipton.

Signalling wise, these aren‘t miles apart from eachother.

The original plan for Tavistock was to extend the track at the end of the platform at Bere Alston to Tavistock. No new points, no signals, just a long siding with a small platform at the end. One train on line from St Budeaux Victoria to Gunnislake and Tavistock.

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe what they mean is that it would cover its operating costs (as suggested for BML2 by yorksrob) but wouldn't repay the capital.

That's still not a definition of "financially viable" but if true would put it well ahead of most regional routes.

 

[Leylandlad]

I don't see any point in running a Leeds - Hellifield - Blackburn - Blackpool service even as an experiment. What market does this serve that is not currently served via Copy Pit? Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Hellifield and Clitheroe - none of which could be described as a teeming metropolis. With a journey time longer (by about a quarter of an hour), and by-passing the bigger markets of Bradford, Halifax, Burnley and Accrington I don't see how it serves any purpose. And it certainly doesn't do anything for the Burnley - Colne - Skipton corridor which is surely the point at issue?

What's wrong with an experiment? If it doesn't work, don't continue!

What about Keighley/Skipton to Blackburn/Preston?

I rest my case about the Copy Pit route. From personal experience, about 1981, me and my mate stood on Preston station seeing a Class 110 formation heading to Leeds from P2. We were confused; how does it get to Leeds via Blackburn? Never heard of Copy Pit at that point. It was a summer Saturday working from Blackpool

A through train from Preston to Leeds...no market surely we thought. Just look ahead 30 years to today...heaving.

My suggestion is to test the traffic flows as above before considering the Colne-Skipton project. If it doesn't work, fine...but give it a go and see.

 

[yorksrob]

The original plan for Tavistock was to extend the track at the end of the platform at Bere Alston to Tavistock. No new points, no signals, just a long siding with a small platform at the end. One train on line from St Budeaux Victoria to Gunnislake and Tavistock.

Fair point. You would need one set of points at Skipton. But it wouldn‘t raise the cost stratospherically.

(Of course, hopefully Tavistock will become more of a mainline project, but that's for another thread

 

[bluenoxid]

Put it this way. Tavistock, they will have to put in a junction at Bere Alston.

Cplne, is at the end of a single track branch already, so they will have to put a junction in at Skipton.

Signalling wise, these aren‘t miles apart from eachother.

I assume Colne is One Train on the line operation only operated from somewhere in the North West.

Any route is going to need at least one loop and a boundary between two signalling areas putting in. That is with a basic one loop at Colne. The more complicated options are going to be whole host more complicated.

The infrastructure hurdles the big beasty and as I keep saying (for a number of years now), they are the big problems.

 

[yorksrob]

I assume Colne is One Train on the line operation only operated from somewhere in the North West.

Any route is going to need at least one loop and a boundary between two signalling areas putting in. That is with a basic one loop at Colne. The more complicated options are going to be whole host more complicated.

The infrastructure hurdles the big beasty and as I keep saying (for a number of years now), they are the big problems.

This is true, with the bridges at either end. Nevertheless, Tavistock for 25m will seriously change the assumptions.

 

[chorleyjeff]

What's wrong with an experiment? If it doesn't work, don't continue!

What about Keighley/Skipton to Blackburn/Preston?

I rest my case about the Copy Pit route. From personal experience, about 1981, me and my mate stood on Preston station seeing a Class 110 formation heading to Leeds from P2. We were confused; how does it get to Leeds via Blackburn? Never heard of Copy Pit at that point. It was a summer Saturday working from Blackpool

A through train from Preston to Leeds...no market surely we thought. Just look ahead 30 years to today...heaving.

My suggestion is to test the traffic flows as above before considering the Colne-Skipton project. If it doesn't work, fine...but give it a go and see.

But lots of people in the towns between Preston and Leeds but not very many between Burnley and Skipton.
There wasn't that much passenger traffic over Copy Pit except summer Saturdays. In the 1950s the normal way for my journey Preston to Halifax was via Manchester Vic. It was change either at Todmorden or Manchester and although a shorter journey over Copy Pit there were few trains to use There were lots of goods and coal trains though.

 

[Tomnick]

What's wrong with an experiment? If it doesn't work, don't continue!

Leaving aside the obvious problems with lack of stock, route knowledge (don't think any one depot would currently sign the whole route), the signalling at Hellifield doesn't permit reversals in passenger service - until resignalling at least, I doubt a short trial would justify the cost of the necessary changes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But lots of people in the towns between Preston and Leeds but not very many between Burnley and Skipton. There wasn't that much passenger traffic over Copy Pit except summer Saturdays. In the 1950s the normal way for my journey Preston to Halifax was via Manchester Vic. It was change either at Todmorden or Manchester and although a shorter journey over Copy Pit there were few trains to use There were lots of goods and coal trains though.

Your last comment that I have emboldened is have a perfect example of the fact that railways were built for the conveyance of freight in mind as much as for passenger conveyance, if not more so, by the Victorians in the industrial heartland of the north of England. Just look how many coal trains ran over the tracks of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway in that time period.

 

[55018ballymoss]

Leaving aside the obvious problems with lack of stock, route knowledge (don't think any one depot would currently sign the whole route), the signalling at Hellifield doesn't permit reversals in passenger service - until resignalling at least, I doubt a short trial would justify the cost of the necessary changes.

Tomnick beat me to it.
Without clipping and scotching points at Hellifield for all facing moves, trains would have to travel via Settle Junction to reverse. (See Sunday DalesRail service running currently)

 

[455driver]

Put it this way. Tavistock, they will have to put in a junction at Bere Alston.

No they wont, just a point from the Gunnislake line into the second (reinstated) platform.

Colne, is at the end of a single track branch already, so they will have to put a junction in at Skipton.

A much bigger job than at Bere Alston.

Signalling wise, these aren‘t miles apart from each other.

There wont be any signalling on the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock, is that the case on the Colne line?
I dont think so!

 

[tbtc]

Obviously we'll have to wait until after the meeting tomorrow night to find out exactly what kind of "Colne to Skipton" service has benefits that are "6.5 times the total costs" - which is the figure that SELRAP are claiming - total costs sounds like they are including building the line/ building the infrastructure etc smoothed over a generation (and not just the marginal cost of a Parry People Mover along the line every hour).

6.5 sounds a big figure, though, so I'm hoping for something a bit more meaty about costs/ revenues than just some unspecified "socio economic" waffle.

Generally I'm sceptical about such schemes (there are other ways over the Pennines, and it'd still be faster to go Burnley - Leeds via Hebden Bridge and be faster to go Keighley - Manchester by changing onto the Huddersfield line - which means that the *actual* SELRAP market is going to be pretty marginal). But, hey, if they can bring about £6.5 in real money for every £1 of total costs then it'd be daft not to...

More than 430,000 people would be expected to use the new line annually

That sounds like a big number, and satisfyingly "un-round" to sound like there's been some real research done - I may be proved wrong, of course. 430,000/ year does work out at pretty much 50 passengers per service, assuming an hourly service running twelve hours a day all year round - I'm sure they'll have a much more rigerous basis for their figures though (?)

Long distance, inter-regional services and freight could increase that figure still further

Now, this is the big problem - what exactly do they mean by a service from Colne - Skipton? Are their "6.5" and "430,000" figures based on:

• A Parry People Mover shuttling between the two towns every hour, on a cheaply constructed "stand alone" single track line (i.e. could be constructed like a tram line, as far as signalling goes)?
• An extension of the current hourly Blackpool South Pacer to Skipton (on a single track line constructed as part of the National Rail network, so the same "gold plated" standards as elsewhere)?
• An all singing all dancing double tracked line to cope with longer distance passenger and freight services, which would mean double tracking the line from Colne to Burnley to, and also electrifying Colne - Burnley - Blackburn - Bolton/ Preston?

Since SELRAP have these impressive sounding figures, I'm sure they'll be telling us which of the three schemes that they are planning for. But at the moment, we seem to be having the "cake an eat it" approach on this thread - suggesting a cheap price ("£25m" ballpark) at the same time as suggesting the benefits of a ridiculously more expensive scheme. Which is it to be?

(and, pre-emptively - the "build one today and upgrade to the other later" answer just suggests that your attitude is that we must build this line no matter what - rather than seeing it against other infrastructure schemes)

It isn't just "Colne to Skipton" is it? It's 'Preston to Leeds', York to Blackpool, Burnley to Keighley, anywhere 'East of the Pennines' to anywhere 'West of the Pennines'

There are direct trains from Preston to Leeds every hour, direct trains from York to Blackpool every hour - the existence of the Copy Pit line (via Hebden Bridge etc) is often conveniently overlooked in discussions about SELRAP because it spoils the argument for a "Blackburn/ Burnley to Leeds/ Bradford" link when people remember that such a service currently exists.

The East Coast electric spine connected to the West Coast electric spine, like another rung of a ladder

The two "spines" are going to be linked when the Huddersfield line is electrified.

If you wanted a second electrified link from Yorkshire to Lancashire then why not the Calder Valley or the Hope Valley? How come Colne to Skipton is a bigger priority than Bradford/ Sheffield to Manchester?

Double track and electified throughout

...which goes against the "£25m" figure being mentioned by others - especially since you'd need other lines in East Lancashire to be double tracked/ electrified, which would push costs up further.

a relatively easily graded route via the Ayre and Calder valleys with no "Summit" to speak of - unlike the Coppy Pit etc. route. Energy efficient

EMUs will cope with the gradients through Huddersfield okay - building a new line isn't very "energy efficient" (compared to electrifying an existing one)

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Gunnislake service. At present the train runs over a set of points before entering the platform. At the end of the platform there are stop blocks.
The guard reverses the points, and the train then reverses to Gunnislake. The return journey is the same in reverse.
At Bere Alston they will remove the stop blocks and the Tavistock train will continue forwards to Tavistock.
The Tavistock and Gunnislake trains will take turns in using the branch from St Budeaux.

 

[The Planner]

There are direct trains from Preston to Leeds every hour, direct trains from York to Blackpool every hour - the existence of the Copy Pit line (via Hebden Bridge etc) is often conveniently overlooked in discussions about SELRAP because it spoils the argument for a "Blackburn/ Burnley to Leeds/ Bradford" link when people remember that such a service currently exists.

Especially when I have heard talk of line speed improvements on the Copy Pit line off the back of the Holme Tunnel works.