Re nationalisation

[baz962]

Just reading a different thread on here, and a mention of going back to nationalisation , possibly under Labour if they get back in. So my question is , could and or would they try to reduce pay and t and c's , seeing as some people believe that rail staff and in particular , train drivers are overpaid. ( most certainly not my belief ).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

A left wing government trying to reduce public sector pay and T&Cs? Think they’d quickly lose credibility if they went down that road.

 

[AngusH]

I'm not convinced there would be much change at all.

In fact I think it could be argued that so much of the railway is under direct and indirect control, plus asset ownership and control, that it is pretty much nationalised right now.

Compare the amount of private work done under government direction with the NHS for example and the percentage of assets owned by the government in each case. The NHS is clearly nationalised (almost by definition), but the railways aren't very out of line.

Edit: To answer original question, they earn less than an airline captain, which is obvious comparator. Arguably underpaid!

 

[Warwick]

I'm not convinced there would be much change at all.

In fact I think it could be argued that so much of the railway is under direct and indirect control, plus asset ownership and control, that it is pretty much nationalised right now.

Compare the amount of private work done under government direction with the NHS for example and the percentage of assets owned by the government in each case. The NHS is clearly nationalised (almost by definition), but the railways aren't very out of line.

Edit: To answer original question, they earn less than an airline captain, which is obvious comparator. Arguably underpaid!

If you think that a train driver is as skilled as an airline captain you need to re-think.

 

[furnessvale]

If you think that a train driver is as skilled as an airline captain you need to re-think.

Indeed, an express coach or HGV driver could also be used as a comparator.

 

[peri]

If you think that a train driver is as skilled as an airline captain you need to re-think.

Just out of idle interest, but is there anyone who has done both jobs and could highlight the differences and similarities? As a complete ignoramus and
amateur I would think that train driving required concentration over a long period. Piloting an airliner would mean less concentration during but potential
fiery disaster at both ends of every journey.
Looking at the various threads about the recruitment and tests makes me think they know exactly what type of personality and mindset is required to drive
trains safely.

 

[mpthomson]

Just out of idle interest, but is there anyone who has done both jobs and could highlight the differences and similarities? As a complete ignoramus and
amateur I would think that train driving required concentration over a long period. Piloting an airliner would mean less concentration during but potential
fiery disaster at both ends of every journey.
Looking at the various threads about the recruitment and tests makes me think they know exactly what type of personality and mindset is required to drive
trains safely.

There's the legal responsibilities of being an airline captain as well, ie the aircraft is legally his or hers once it's left the ground and the captain has legal authority. Everyone in it is their responsibility. That doesn't apply for train drivers, plus language requirements (though the vast majority of ATC worldwide is still in English), training, type currency etc

It's a completely different level of both legal, educational and training requirement.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed, an express coach or HGV driver could also be used as a comparator.

but I could qualify, easily, as a bus or wagon driver tomorrow and go anywhere in the country without ever having been there before - it isnt quite the same

 

[furnessvale]

but I could qualify, easily, as a bus or wagon driver tomorrow and go anywhere in the country without ever having been there before - it isnt quite the same

Indeed, which is why I used the words "could" and "comparator".

Equally of course it could be claimed that a train driver has no requirement to steer his vehicle, has signals to give him an indication of route ahead and does not drive by line of sight.

The market has decided pay rates and I have no desire to change them. Whether a Marxist led incoming government would change them is a different matter.

 

[baz962]

When I started this thread it was not to compare with other jobs, and you just can't. You could argue that hgv driver , when something goes wrong, say if the truck caught fire, only has there self to get out, a bus driver possibly upto 70 ish people , most of whom would generally know the green cross code and go stand on the pavement. A train driver might need to evacuate upto 1000 people on a twelve car , onto a railway , a place where most people know nothing of third rail, overhead line , red bond, linespeed , direction of line etc. Of course we get the old chestnut about not having to steer , not so good if the line is blocked , at least a truck or bus driver can avoid a collision. As for pilots , anyone reading any of my previous posts on threads here , might know I worked at Luton airport before my change of career , and I have many friends that fly and know pilots from various airlines. I have also flown albeit a light aircraft. Like train drivers it is what you , and the training , flying in itself is not difficult and generally , once up in the air the planes are on autopilot , and in fact at Luton they even land automatically. Pilots once up don't even need to keep a foot on a plate.

 

[Wirewiper]

People may think train drivers (not so much other railway staff) are overpaid, but that is their own value judgement.

Whilst drivers may be well paid in the scheme of things and enjoy Terms & Conditions that others can only dream of, they do have a lot more responsibility than many have in their day-to-day jobs. They also make sacrifices in terms of family and social life that many would simply not countenance.

But to answer your question - no, I don't think that a Labour Government would use Nationalisation to attempt to reduce pay and worsen Terms & Conditions of employment. Because of the nature of the industry (shift working in dispersed locations) Free Collective Bargaining is still an essential Human Resource Management tool, and to be quite frank, the Unions would not let a Labour Government get away with it. However, a future Conservative Government ....

 

[coppercapped]

I have written about this in other threads, but its probably worth repeating!

Having only one employer for people with a particular skill will eventually depress wages and salaries of those people in relation to the rest of the population. The case of a single employer is technically known as a monopsony, a single purchaser, and is equally pernicious in its effects as its opposite, the monopoly, which is a single supplier.

So, if the railways are nationalised again and there is only one employer in the short term little will happen - but after 5 or 10 years the decline in relative pay rates compared to the outside world will be noticeable.

This is nothing to do with skills of train driving compared to piloting or HGV driving or free collective bargaining - it's pure economics.

 

[Bromley boy]

So my question is , could and or would they try to reduce pay and t and c's , seeing as some people believe that rail staff and in particular , train drivers are overpaid. ( most certainly not my belief ).

I doubt there would be much change when we already have a quasi nationalised system with collective bargaining in place.

The people with biggest beef with train drivers’ wages usually fall into one or more of the following categories:
- no understanding of the job (but consider themselves an expert because they are an enthusiast);
- have tried and failed to become a driver themselves;
- oddballs who are bitter about their own situation in life (often unemployed or similar).

If you think that a train driver is as skilled as an airline captain you need to re-think.

Indeed, an express coach or HGV driver could also be used as a comparator.

I’d suggest they’re both very poor comparisons.

A bus or HGV driver can be trained up in only six weeks of so, a train driver takes 12-18 months. A train driver probably has more ultimate responsibility in terms of size and value of the vehicle they are driving than a bus or lorry driver but less than an airline captain.

Train driving is a lot closer to being a pilot than to lorry/bus driving in terms of training cost and time (costing around the same and taking a similar length of time), but the exams and training for pilots is undoubtedly harder. Of course a commercial pilot does not become a captain for several years, unless they do single pilot ops.

I know a first officer who has been flying jets for around a decade and still finds it mildly amusing when punters on cockpit visits ask him how long left until he qualifies as a pilot and moves to the left hand seat.

It's a completely different level of both legal, educational and training requirement.

The ATPL exams for commercial pilots are around GCSE level in terms of difficulty. The instructors at your local flying club will most likely have done these and will earn far, far less than the average train driver, let alone airline captain.

The difference between someone who has a frozen ATPL (commercial pilot’s licence, multi engine IR and some other bits and bobs) and an airline captain is largely one of experience.

 

[trebor79]

Just out of idle interest, but is there anyone who has done both jobs and could highlight the differences and similarities? As a complete ignoramus and
amateur I would think that train driving required concentration over a long period. Piloting an airliner would mean less concentration during but potential
fiery disaster at both ends of every journey.
Looking at the various threads about the recruitment and tests makes me think they know exactly what type of personality and mindset is required to drive
trains safely.

I've driven trains on a heritage railway and fly light aircraft for pleasure, and am starting to train for an instrument rating (ability to fly to the same standard as a commercial pilot).

There is no valid comparison. To suggest driving a train is in any way comparable to flying an aeroplane is a bit like saying eating an orange is comparable to eating an avocado.

You also need to bear in mind that the highest paid long haul captains will spend a lot of time away from home for days at a time. The highest salaries are only achieved by those who have been with certain employers for many years. A lot of pilots, particularly with low cost carriers, are on a salary that many train drivers wouldn't get out of bed for.

 

[baz962]

I've driven trains on a heritage railway and fly light aircraft for pleasure, and am starting to train for an instrument rating (ability to fly to the same standard as a commercial pilot).

There is no valid comparison. To suggest driving a train is in any way comparable to flying an aeroplane is a bit like saying eating an orange is comparable to eating an avocado.

You also need to bear in mind that the highest paid long haul captains will spend a lot of time away from home for days at a time. The highest salaries are only achieved by those who have been with certain employers for many years. A lot of pilots, particularly with low cost carriers, are on a salary that many train drivers wouldn't get out of bed for.

Slight disagreement , I know quite a few easyjet pilots , earning quite a few bob , yes less in relation to ba pilots who earn routinely 100k, but easyjet pilots can earn circa 70 and do quite a lot less hours.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Is it this time of year already?

 

[Bantamzen]

The can has been opened (again), and the worms are everywhere (again)...

On the matter of comparisons, there is no case for comparing a coach driver to a train driver, nor a train driver to a pilot. They are all very different jobs that just happen to have the same end result, i.e. to move passengers from A to B.

On the matter of privatisation & pay / T&Cs, it has been mentioned above that over time there could be a risk of wage stagnation, and for the most part I tend to agree with this. As much as I might like to see more centrally owned responsibility for the vital part of the infrastructure that is the rail network, having a level of competition does drive wages at least when there is growth, whereas in publicly owned spheres wages can easily stagnate especially where there is political pressure. From a personal perspective I have no problem with the wages earned by drivers, I see their work as skilled, vital, important and highly responsible and as such they deserve what they earn. I hate it when people turn on bitter mode and whinge that they don't earn as much in their work. If they are so convinced they are worth an equal amount, they ought to be applying for jobs in the rail industry.

 

[baz962]

The can has been opened (again), and the worms are everywhere (again)...

On the matter of comparisons, there is no case for comparing a coach driver to a train driver, nor a train driver to a pilot. They are all very different jobs that just happen to have the same end result, i.e. to move passengers from A to B.

On the matter of privatisation & pay / T&Cs, it has been mentioned above that over time there could be a risk of wage stagnation, and for the most part I tend to agree with this. As much as I might like to see more centrally owned responsibility for the vital part of the infrastructure that is the rail network, having a level of competition does drive wages at least when there is growth, whereas in publicly owned spheres wages can easily stagnate especially where there is political pressure. From a personal perspective I have no problem with the wages earned by drivers, I see their work as skilled, vital, important and highly responsible and as such they deserve what they earn. I hate it when people turn on bitter mode and whinge that they don't earn as much in their work. If they are so convinced they are worth an equal amount, they ought to be applying for jobs in the rail industry.

Agree totally , as I said my op was simply about re nationalisation , I myself am a trainee driver and did not intend this thread to compare to any other job, career or industry.

 

[SPADTrap]

Just out of idle interest, but is there anyone who has done both jobs and could highlight the differences and similarities? As a complete ignoramus and
amateur I would think that train driving required concentration over a long period. Piloting an airliner would mean less concentration during but potential
fiery disaster at both ends of every journey.
Looking at the various threads about the recruitment and tests makes me think they know exactly what type of personality and mindset is required to drive
trains safely.

I've done (do) both although not as a Captain. Both are different jobs with transferable skills. About all there is to it.

 

[whhistle]

The people with biggest beef with train drivers’ wages usually fall into one or more of the following categories:
- no understanding of the job (but consider themselves an expert because they are an enthusiast);
- have tried and failed to become a driver themselves;
- oddballs who are bitter about their own situation in life (often unemployed or similar).

I'd suggest many people think doctors, GPs, Nurses, Firefighters, Prision Wardens, Ambulence Technicians (drivers!) and Police Officers are more highly regarded in society and thus should be paid more than a train driver.
To put it bluntly, from the news articles I've read in the past, train driving isn't worth £60K a year. The only people I hear saying it is, are drivers themselves... because they know they have it good. Yes, that's tarring all with the same brush, there are many, many decent ones out there but the collective "train driver"...

Whether that is [the people in societys] own naivety in what a train driver has to do/know probably plays a part, but a lot of the "knowledge" part of train driving is left over from BR Steam days. Why does a train driver need to know the gradient of a hill, or how long a tunnel is? Give it a bit more juice if you're slowing down too much.

It's not like train drivers physically get a spanner out and fix something - they just call a guy at the end of the phone who tells them to restart the computer and away they go. Hell, train drivers don't even manually couple trains these days - West Coast certainly employs Shunters to do this for them!

 

[Bromley boy]

I'd suggest many people think doctors, GPs, Nurses, Firefighters, Prision Wardens, Ambulence Technicians (drivers!) and Police Officers are more highly regarded in society and thus should be paid more than a train driver.
To put it bluntly, from the news articles I've read in the past, train driving isn't worth £60K a year. The only people I hear saying it is, are drivers themselves... because they know they have it good. Yes, that's tarring all with the same brush, there are many, many decent ones out there but the collective "train driver"...

Whether that is [the people in societys] own naivety in what a train driver has to do/know probably plays a part, but a lot of the "knowledge" part of train driving is left over from BR Steam days. Why does a train driver need to know the gradient of a hill, or how long a tunnel is? Give it a bit more juice if you're slowing down too much.

It's not like train drivers physically get a spanner out and fix something - they just call a guy at the end of the phone who tells them to restart the computer and away they go. Hell, train drivers don't even manually couple trains these days - West Coast certainly employs Shunters to do this for them!

What a load of twaddle. More highly regarded by society? That’s an utterly meaningless statement - I think you’ll find salaries aren’t determined by popular opinions. I think the financial services industry is rather pleased about that.

In any case you’ve neatly proved my point. I seem to remember you went for driver yourself, failed the colour vision test and are now bitter about being stuck working on the platforms?

You’re in the second of my three categories...

 

[baz962]

I'd suggest many people think doctors, GPs, Nurses, Firefighters, Prision Wardens, Ambulence Technicians (drivers!) and Police Officers are more highly regarded in society and thus should be paid more than a train driver.
To put it bluntly, from the news articles I've read in the past, train driving isn't worth £60K a year. The only people I hear saying it is, are drivers themselves... because they know they have it good. Yes, that's tarring all with the same brush, there are many, many decent ones out there but the collective "train driver"...

Whether that is [the people in societys] own naivety in what a train driver has to do/know probably plays a part, but a lot of the "knowledge" part of train driving is left over from BR Steam days. Why does a train driver need to know the gradient of a hill, or how long a tunnel is? Give it a bit more juice if you're slowing down too much.

It's not like train drivers physically get a spanner out and fix something - they just call a guy at the end of the phone who tells them to restart the computer and away they go. Hell, train drivers don't even manually couple trains these days - West Coast certainly employs Shunters to do this for them!

And many of those police, fire, and medical people are underpaid. But I was on my first assessment day with a firefighter , whom worked in a monday to friday station , 9 to 5 ish hour's. And the work , well according to him , mostly cat's in tree's and people in handcuff's in the bedroom , you cannot compare. And back to what I said earlier , it is not just for driving the train. If the train caught fire and you were doo , and had 1000 people on the train that you had to evacuate , and they knew nothing about the railway etc , then you would be earning your money.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why does a train driver need to know the gradient of a hill, or how long a tunnel is? Give it a bit more juice if you're slowing down too much.

To add to my previous post - the above statement shows immediately how little you know about driving a train - gradients are a key part of route knowledge. It’s absolutely infuriating when ignorant people like you come on here and start mouthing off about the job that I and others on this forum do. All the while with your nose pressed against the glass wishing you could do it yourself...

You stick to blowing whistles and waving bats around mate.

 

[6Gman]

I have written about this in other threads, but its probably worth repeating!

Having only one employer for people with a particular skill will eventually depress wages and salaries of those people in relation to the rest of the population. The case of a single employer is technically known as a monopsony, a single purchaser, and is equally pernicious in its effects as its opposite, the monopoly, which is a single supplier.

So, if the railways are nationalised again and there is only one employer in the short term little will happen - but after 5 or 10 years the decline in relative pay rates compared to the outside world will be noticeable.

This is nothing to do with skills of train driving compared to piloting or HGV driving or free collective bargaining - it's pure economics.

This.

The irony of privatisation and fragmentation is that despite being bitterly opposed by the unions it has, in practice, benefited their members.

 

[Minilad]

I'd suggest many people think doctors, GPs, Nurses, Firefighters, Prision Wardens, Ambulence Technicians (drivers!) and Police Officers are more highly regarded in society and thus should be paid more than a train driver.
To put it bluntly, from the news articles I've read in the past, train driving isn't worth £60K a year. The only people I hear saying it is, are drivers themselves... because they know they have it good. Yes, that's tarring all with the same brush, there are many, many decent ones out there but the collective "train driver"...

Whether that is [the people in societys] own naivety in what a train driver has to do/know probably plays a part, but a lot of the "knowledge" part of train driving is left over from BR Steam days. Why does a train driver need to know the gradient of a hill, or how long a tunnel is? Give it a bit more juice if you're slowing down too much.

It's not like train drivers physically get a spanner out and fix something - they just call a guy at the end of the phone who tells them to restart the computer and away they go. Hell, train drivers don't even manually couple trains these days - West Coast certainly employs Shunters to do this for them!

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

 

[SPADTrap]

I'd suggest many people think doctors, GPs, Nurses, Firefighters, Prision Wardens, Ambulence Technicians (drivers!) and Police Officers are more highly regarded in society and thus should be paid more than a train driver.
To put it bluntly, from the news articles I've read in the past, train driving isn't worth £60K a year. The only people I hear saying it is, are drivers themselves... because they know they have it good. Yes, that's tarring all with the same brush, there are many, many decent ones out there but the collective "train driver"...

Whether that is [the people in societys] own naivety in what a train driver has to do/know probably plays a part, but a lot of the "knowledge" part of train driving is left over from BR Steam days. Why does a train driver need to know the gradient of a hill, or how long a tunnel is? Give it a bit more juice if you're slowing down too much.

It's not like train drivers physically get a spanner out and fix something - they just call a guy at the end of the phone who tells them to restart the computer and away they go. Hell, train drivers don't even manually couple trains these days - West Coast certainly employs Shunters to do this for them!

'From the news articles I've read in the past' - Best thing I've read all day! I'm perplexed at how bitter you are because someone has it good and I feel extremely sorry for you, there are people who can help.

 

[exile]

The last time railways were nationalised, train staff, despite the best efforts of the unions, went from being relatively well paid to near the bottom of the heap - a train driver earned little more than a bus driver. I can't imagine things would be any different should railways be re-nationalised. The advantage of the current setup is that a number of different companies are competing for a more or less fixed pool of skilled people. With only one employer the advantage would shift to the employer's side.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The last time railways were nationalised, train staff, despite the best efforts of the unions, went from being relatively well paid to near the bottom of the heap - a train driver earned little more than a bus driver. I can't imagine things would be any different should railways be re-nationalised. The advantage of the current setup is that a number of different companies are competing for a more or less fixed pool of skilled people. With only one employer the advantage would shift to the employer's side.

Labour haven't explained what their nationalised model means.
It might not go back to "one big happy family".
For a start it will take 10 years or so to get all the franchises back in the fold, and private freight and open access TOCs will still exist.
The passenger operation will probably still be a divided railway, either on a regional or local basis (not to mention Scotland and Wales being separate).

 

[Raul_Duke]

If only you could have passed that colour vision test eh @whhistle ........?

 

[bb21]

Agree totally , as I said my op was simply about re nationalisation , I myself am a trainee driver and did not intend this thread to compare to any other job, career or industry.

I am sorry that silly season seems to have started and your thread is ruined.

If you wish, create another one and state very categorically in the first post no such discussion is allowed, and further transgression will be removed as this just otherwise goes round and round in circles. I can also move some of the very few truly on topic posts over.

This thread is mind-numbingly boring barring those selected posts. Anyone wanting to revisit all the bickering over drivers' pay should just search for one of the numerous threads already in existence and browse through them.