Ranger / rover reform

[randyrippley]

Yes it still runs - three journeys, Monday to Friday. Operated by 'Blueworks'. Timetable attached.

thanks for that
that timetable is confusing!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

I'd stop having both of the terms "ranger" and "rover". Pick one or the other!

don't Rangers usually include bus travel?

 

[xotGD]

Scrap the evening peak restriction on the West Yorkshire Daysaver. It makes the ticket useless on weekdays if you want to do the TPE 68s.

No such restriction exists on the West Midlands equivalent.

 

[JonathanH]

Scrap the evening peak restriction on the West Yorkshire Daysaver. It makes the ticket useless on weekdays if you want to do the TPE 68s.

Isn't there a more expensive mobile app option if you require peak travel?

https://www.m-card.co.uk/the-cards/day-tickets/

WY DaySaver Bus and Rail (Peak): Purchase on the MCard Mobile App. Enjoy unlimited peak travel on any bus and any train (within specified zones) anywhere in West Yorkshire.

Zones 1-3: £11.80

Zones 1-4: £13.50

Zones 1-5: £14.70

Zones 2-5: £11.60

 

[paul1609]

Given the shift in peak loadings to weekends and the need to discourage travel for the sake of it for climate change reasons wouldnt it be better to phase out rover and ranger tickets and then railcards maybe by subsequent reductions in the discounts?

 

[Western 52]

Many rovers have restrictions such as not before 0930 on weekdays. This made sense before the pandemic, but it seems many so-called peak trains are now quieter than later trains, so it's time to reconsider such restrictions to make rovers more worthwhile.

 

[JonathanH]

This made sense before the pandemic, but it seems many so-called peak trains are now quieter than later trains, so it's time to reconsider such restrictions to make rovers more worthwhile.

It still makes sense, perhaps more so, so as not to reduce revenue from those still travelling in the 'so called' peak.

Ultimately the railway needs to maximise the revenue it can earn. It needs to strike the right balance between getting the most revenue from those travelling whilst at the same time being attractive enough to encourage more travellers.

The trouble with making rovers 'more worthwhile' for users is that they would have to be 'more worthwhile' for the operators as well through higher prices.

 

[Peter0124]

Given the shift in peak loadings to weekends and the need to discourage travel for the sake of it for climate change reasons wouldnt it be better to phase out rover and ranger tickets and then railcards maybe by subsequent reductions in the discounts?

I disagree. How is it environmentally bad to travel by train if the route is electrified? If anything rangers/rovers/railcards should be encouraged on said routes.

 

[JonathanH]

How is it environmentally bad to travel by train if the route is electrified?

Just answering the question.

The power being used to run the electric train could be used for something else for a start. At some point, the train and track will need replacement. Greater use speeds up the need for replacement. Creating the steel and other materials isn't zero cost for the environment. Using transport for non essential purposes may prevent someone using it for essential purposes and continuing to use other means of transport.

 

[Dr Day]

The plethora of fares product choices in itself puts some people off travelling and with today's technology should no longer be necessary for the majority of regular travel.

Why not scrap rovers and rangers (and season tickets whilst you are at it) completely and simply have transparent pay as you go rates with appropriate caps and discounts to reflect loyalty (the more you travel the less you pay), busy and less busy times, and target demographic markets? Ok, would be too complex on a national basis (as has been discussed previously) but suitable overlapping regions could surely be derived that catered for the majority of regular travel needs including exploring regions on holiday as well as day to day work and leisure based from home.

 

[Peter0124]

Having a price cap of say £5 OFF PEAK travelling within 20 miles would be very good, no idea how it would work in practice though.

 

[JonathanH]

Having a price cap of say £5 OFF PEAK travelling within 20 miles would be very good, no idea how it would work in practice though.

One way for a single journey? Your sights are a little low on that one relative to current fare levels.

How is it linked to rangers and rovers though?

 

[xotGD]

Isn't there a more expensive mobile app option if you require peak travel?

https://www.m-card.co.uk/the-cards/day-tickets/

Thanks - I was not aware of that product. Just a pity that it is not available as a proper ticket or as a rail-only option.

 

[Bevan Price]

I wonder if Rangers & Rovers will survive some of the proposals to "simplify" the fares system, and the suggested closure of all ticket offices. TVMs can be fiendishly complicated, and many seem unable to sell Rangers & Rovers.
Can they be made to work on smartcards if you also need to buy tickets from your home station to/from the Rover boundary station, etc. ?
Or might you need separate smart cards for Rovers & other tickets.

 

[OffThePacer18]

Why not have a system where passengers decide exactly where they can go with their rover? Would have to be done online, selecting lines on a map, then the price generated. Could also keep the existing ones as pre-set options.

 

[JonathanH]

Why not have a system where passengers decide exactly where they can go with their rover? Would have to be done online, selecting lines on a map, then the price generated. Could also keep the existing ones as pre-set options.

While that might be useful for passengers, it would be massively confusing for revenue staff trying to check validity. I suspect the idea is too much of a niche idea to be worth the development cost which would no doubt be considerable.

PAYG with single leg pricing and capping offers a rudimentary version of this in any case although in many cases that capping is arranged in concentric zones around a core location.

 

[Peter0124]

Or why not just have an off-peak all day ticket rather than capping? Rather than being 'Valid for one journey' it should say 'Unlimited'.

1.5x the Off-Peak return price.

 

[JonathanH]

Or why not just have an off-peak all day ticket rather than capping? Rather than being 'Valid for one journey' it should say 'Unlimited'.

1.5x the Off-Peak return price.

Fine over short distances but in some longer distance cases that could get quite expensive. All depends on how the off-peak return (or off-peak day return) is priced.

Would it be offered on all routes? Would anyone pay getting on for £60 for an unlimited day of off-peak travel between Reading and Swindon? Even an enthusiast wanting to get haulage on 80x units would look for other opportunities, for example the existing Thames Branches Day Ranger, at a much lower price.

I'd hazard to suggest that the Thames Branches Day Ranger is of more use to a 'normal' passenger also as one thing it offers is the opportunity to combine train travel with the ability to walk along the Thames between stations.

 

[A S Leib]

While that might be useful for passengers, it would be massively confusing for revenue staff trying to check validity. I suspect the idea is too much of a niche idea to be worth the development cost which would no doubt be considerable.

PAYG with single leg pricing and capping offers a rudimentary version of this in any case although in many cases that capping is arranged in concentric zones around a core location.

It would still probably be too expensive to justify its existence, but making it smartcard- /e-ticket only should at least make checking validity easier.

 

[AM9]

Given the shift in peak loadings to weekends and the need to discourage travel for the sake of it for climate change reasons wouldnt it be better to phase out rover and ranger tickets and then railcards maybe by subsequent reductions in the discounts?

Any inference of rail travel being bad for climate change is only relevant if the flows of passengers travelling on Rovers and Rangers have increased so much thatadditional services are required. I have never seen large crowds armed with ranger tickets causing crush-loaded trains that would othherwise be lightly loaded.*

* Actually, there were 2 or 3 instances in the '80s when the first 'Network Days' were held to launch Network South East.

 

[JonathanH]

I have never seen large crowds armed with ranger tickets causing crush-loaded trains that would othherwise be lightly loaded.*

It depends on the promotion. I think some 'red dot days' in the early days of East Midlands Trains and the similar 'Great Escape' promotions on London Midland did lead to such crush-loaded trains that would otherwise be lightly loaded. The issue with both of course being the 'giveaway' of a cheap weekend trip to London from somewhere where a journey is otherwise expensive.

 

[AM9]

It depends on the promotion. I think some 'red dot days' in the early days of East Midlands Trains and the similar 'Great Escape' promotions on London Midland did lead to such crush-loaded trains that would otherwise be lightly loaded. The issue with both of course being the 'giveaway' of a cheap weekend trip to London from somewhere where a journey is otherwise expensive.

That's what I presumesd, that 'normal' Ranger/Rover tickets are (within the scope of their availability) generally available any day and apart from seasonal variations, I don't think that they have such an impact that additional capacity is provided that would be giving the wrong messages about climate change as @paul1609 implies. The Network Days were very special, - ask anybody who remembers them!, and the Great Escape offer was for a limited period. I hadn't heard of the 'Red Dot Days' promotion but the name suggests something less than regular.

 

[Statto]

North Wales day ranger valid to Crewe, via Shrewsbury & Chester,

West Midlands day ranger valid from Crewe to Shrewsbury & Hereford, on the direct route

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I'd change the ALR to a product that's valid for say 7 in 14 days and 14 in 28 days. Putting aside the price, the main issue I've always had with the ALR is the need to use it for so many consecutive days. After three or four days in a row having a day or two at home is nice opportunity to recharge but of course wastes a day.

Flexi ALR deffo needs to be a thing, as I can imagine you'll get super burnt out after 7 or even 14 consecutive days! Maybe the option of a 3 in 7 version of the ALR would be useful, priced at around half that of a 7 day ALR, for those who can't find the time for 7 consecutive days of travel.

 

[mrcheek]

Flexi ALR deffo needs to be a thing, as I can imagine you'll get super burnt out after 7 or even 14 consecutive days! Maybe the option of a 3 in 7 version of the ALR would be useful, priced at around half that of a 7 day ALR, for those who can't find the time for 7 consecutive days of travel.

If you are a lightweight who cant handle 14 consecutive days of travel, then the ALR is not for you! lol.

A 3 in 7 ALR wouldnt work, since it would have to be priced so high that it wasnt worth it, or priced so low that it would be cheaper than some long distance return tickets.

Anyway, one other change that has to be made: With Thameslink providing some services into Kent, the Kent Rover needs to be valid on those services between Gravesend and Rainham. I mean they virtually are anyway, since theres no chance of a ticket check. But I felt uncomfortable technically travelling for a few minutes without a valid ticket

 

[miklcct]

Fine over short distances but in some longer distance cases that could get quite expensive. All depends on how the off-peak return (or off-peak day return) is priced.

Would it be offered on all routes? Would anyone pay getting on for £60 for an unlimited day of off-peak travel between Reading and Swindon? Even an enthusiast wanting to get haulage on 80x units would look for other opportunities, for example the existing Thames Branches Day Ranger, at a much lower price.

I'd hazard to suggest that the Thames Branches Day Ranger is of more use to a 'normal' passenger also as one thing it offers is the opportunity to combine train travel with the ability to walk along the Thames between stations.

I would suggest that they are offered on all routes where a Day Return (Off-Peak Day Return, or if not available, then Anytime Day Return) is available. Also, I suggest that with such day tickets, PlusBus should be offered even if the rail journey is totally within the zone as well, for example, to allow buying a Christchurch - Hamworthy day ticket along with a Christchurch PlusBus Day to allow travelling within Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole as much as you want in a day by all modes of public transport.

In the long terms I would suggest all rovers to be abolished and replaced by Railcard-discountable off-peak season tickets as well (to be sold for either 7 days, or 1 months or longer up to a year), allowing unlimited journeys and break of journeys with a restriction code stating what time they can be used.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Remove the list of participating TOCs from all rovers that have one. Valid on all and any service trains on the mapped routes. Period.
This would remove anomalies like the presence of two routes on the map for the Freedom of the North East for which no allowed TOC operates any service - Gainsborough <> Doncaster and Cleethorpes <> Barton on Humber.

 

[Kite159]

If you are a lightweight who cant handle 14 consecutive days of travel, then the ALR is not for you! lol.

A 3 in 7 ALR wouldnt work, since it would have to be priced so high that it wasnt worth it, or priced so low that it would be cheaper than some long distance return tickets.

Anyway, one other change that has to be made: With Thameslink providing some services into Kent, the Kent Rover needs to be valid on those services between Gravesend and Rainham. I mean they virtually are anyway, since theres no chance of a ticket check. But I felt uncomfortable technically travelling for a few minutes without a valid ticket

Not just Rainham - Gravesend for the Kent Rover, but allow use of Thameslink between Swanley & Sevenoaks to 'plug' the gap at Bat & Ball [which I'm sure used to be included in the days when those Blackfriars - Sevenoaks trains were run by South Eastern [changing along the way from memory]

 

[JonathanH]

Not just Rainham - Gravesend for the Kent Rover, but allow use of Thameslink between Swanley & Sevenoaks to 'plug' the gap at Bat & Ball [which I'm sure used to be included in the days when those Blackfriars - Sevenoaks trains were run by South Eastern [changing along the way from memory]

Even when Southeastern operate over the Bat & Ball route during engineering work, I don't think they stop at Sevenoaks and a further station within the validity area. Do they still actually sign the route?

 

[Chiltern006]

yeah did a kent rover last week and is annoying with the bat and ball gap. i’m pretty sure SE crews still sign it in case of disruption on the Maidstone line and they have to divert Victoria to Ashford trains to run fast on the SEML

an essex day ranger would also be very nice i won’t lie!

 

[Kite159]

yeah did a kent rover last week and is annoying with the bat and ball gap. i’m pretty sure SE crews still sign it in case of disruption on the Maidstone line and they have to divert Victoria to Ashford trains to run fast on the SEML

an essex day ranger would also be very nice i won’t lie!

It's a common diversion route for trains towards Tonbridge whenever Orpington area is closed for engineering works. Diverted nonstop via Swanley to rejoin the usual route at Sevenoaks.