Railways to get £8bn investment

[tbtc]

Also good to see that Great Western electrification is going as far as Oxford to make logical use of more cascaded 319s and free up some Turbos for other work.

Good news

What interests me is whether we will have:

A. Same service provision as now, with HSTs running 100% under the wire on "fast" Oxford services (cue another "diesels under the wire" argument)

B. HSTs only running on London - Oxford - Worcester - Hereford services - all other London - Oxford services to be 319s

C. Oxford - Worcester - Hereford to be a stand alone shuttle service for much of the day (with maybe a couple of daily "through" services to London

The reason I ask is that, as I understand it, the 319s are going to be the only electric stock available for Oxford in the next few years (IEP being a long way away), so would people be happy with 319s replacing HSTs on most Oxford journeys?

XC (etc) could certainly do with any HSTs spared, of course

 

[northwichcat]

Fantastic news, more suitable electric trains for Manchester to Scotland and more 185s available for TPE to bolster servies on their core routes

The plan is for the cascaded 185s to run a an additional service between Manchester and Selby via Huddersfield with peak time extensions to Hull as per the Yorkshire RUS. However, Merseytravel were angry that the proposal wasn't a second hourly service between Liverpool and Leeds which had been mentioned in the Merseyside RUS.

 

[tbtc]

The plan is for the cascaded 185s to run a an additional service between Manchester and Selby via Huddersfield with peak time extensions to Hull as per the Yorkshire RUS. However, Merseytravel were angry that the proposal wasn't a second hourly service between Liverpool and Leeds which had been mentioned in the Merseyside RUS.

The best way to do it would be to use the additional units to bulk up the Leeds - Manchester "core", doubling up with existing units.

Four "fast" trains an hour is already enough - more trains is only going to mean more scheduling headaches, better to couple a Newcastle - Leeds train to an empty unit at Leeds and run a doubled up one as far as Manchester, then detach the Newcastle unit to continue to the Airport, whilst the "empty" unit is then attached to the next northbound Newcastle service (etc etc)

 

[northwichcat]

The reason I ask is that, as I understand it, the 319s are going to be the only electric stock available for Oxford in the next few years (IEP being a long way away), so would people be happy with 319s replacing HSTs on most Oxford journeys?

Will there actually be enough 319s to run 100% electric services on all the newly electrified routes (exc. Manchester to Scotland)?

There are 86 319s and FGW (or the future operator) will require 48 x 319s just to replace the Turbo services.
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The best way to do it would be to use the additional units to bulk up the Leeds - Manchester "core", doubling up with existing units.

Four "fast" trains an hour is already enough - more trains is only going to mean more scheduling headaches, better to couple a Newcastle - Leeds train to an empty unit at Leeds and run a doubled up one as far as Manchester, then detach the Newcastle unit to continue to the Airport, whilst the "empty" unit is then attached to the next northbound Newcastle service (etc etc)

I agree the plan isn't good. The draft RUS put forward the option of a clockface 15 minute frequency between Manchester, Huddersfield and York and the Hull being an additional service which sounded good, but that idea got rejected.

 

[sprinterguy]

Will there actually be enough 319s to run 100% electric services on all the newly electrified routes (exc. Manchester to Scotland)?

There are 86 319s and FGW (or the future operator) will require 48 x 319s just to replace the Turbo services.

If the 86 319s are split solely between Thames Valley and North west electric services, there should be enough to go around.

 

[Minstral25]

Another missed opportunity - why don't they tag the new London - Newbury/Oxford electrics onto Crossrail and then all the terminating trains from Shenfield/Abbey Wood at Paddington (is it 8 or 16 per hour) could take over most of the FGW suburban routes. Most passengers will be coming off Crossrail to get onto these services anyway so why not join up thinking??

Although they will have to buy up 30/40 more Crossrail trains they would benefit from more 319's to distribute around the country as well.

 

[Chris125]

Could it be that it was too late for the DfT to cancel the new Thameslink rolling stock ? So they found themselves with surplus 319s looking for a home and pressing ahead with the Lancashire electrification seemed to be the best face saver ?

The Thameslink order could indeed have been cancelled, the winner wont be announced till the sping, but if the whole project is to be go ahead (ATO, GN connection etc) then its neccesary. With the NW electrification already announced, and now the GW commuter services too, the 319's need to be displaced. It also means the 377's can eventually go to Southern.

Is the Thameslink still going to connect ECML Kings Lynn / Peterborough services via St Pancras to the rest of the Thameslink network. The cord connecting Thameslink and ECML just north of St Pancras (basement platforms) is in place.

Yes, the whole Thameslink programme has been given the go-ahead - London Bridge, GN routes, ATO etc.

Chris

 

[northwichcat]

If the 86 319s are split solely between Thames Valley and North west electric services, there should be enough to go around.

I was repsonding to tbtc's suggestion of having 319s on both FGW Turbo and HST routes.

 

[danfitz123]

Good news

What interests me is whether we will have:

A. Same service provision as now, with HSTs running 100% under the wire on "fast" Oxford services (cue another "diesels under the wire" argument)

B. HSTs only running on London - Oxford - Worcester - Hereford services - all other London - Oxford services to be 319s

C. Oxford - Worcester - Hereford to be a stand alone shuttle service for much of the day (with maybe a couple of daily "through" services to London

The reason I ask is that, as I understand it, the 319s are going to be the only electric stock available for Oxford in the next few years (IEP being a long way away), so would people be happy with 319s replacing HSTs on most Oxford journeys?

XC (etc) could certainly do with any HSTs spared, of course

I cetainly wouldnt be happy with HST's being replaced with 319's. 319's are no better than 323's in my opinion.

 

[Aictos]

I cetainly wouldnt be happy with HST's being replaced with 319's. 319's are no better than 323's in my opinion.

You forget the 319s will be fully refurbished with air con and as such will see improvements to them.

Anyway, one question for the GWML which is are the various Thames Valley branches going to be wired up too or will some Networkers have to be retained to work them?

 

[jon0844]

The refreshed 319s are fine, but it's a shame there's no CCTV or PIS on them. When they get a proper refurbishment, they should be every bit as nice inside as an EC Mk4 and perfectly good for a number of years to come. Air conditioning will be another bonus.

To be honest, I'd be happy to keep the existing FCC rolling stock if they were given that level of overhaul, and ATO wasn't a requirement.

 

[fgwrich]

You forget the 319s will be fully refurbished with air con and as such will see improvements to them.

Anyway, one question for the GWML which is are the various Thames Valley branches going to be wired up too or will some Networkers have to be retained to work them?

As good as the 319s are...I know id rather have some of the 365s on the Electrified Oxford services...

 

[northwichcat]

If you review the press statements it seems to imply that the 319s will be returned to the leasing company and then anyone operator will be free to lease them.

The new Thameslink and Crossrail rolling stock will enable the redeployment of hundreds of serviceable electric carriages currently used on Thameslink services. These carriages belong to rolling-stock leasing companies, but we expect they will be available at competitive leasing prices for re-use elsewhere, thus justifying further electrification of our network.

It also goes on to say that redeployed electric units will mean diesel units will be freed up for new leasing.

The redeployment of electric rolling stock to these routes will, in turn, free up hundreds of diesel units which will be available to Train Operators to lease as they become available in the period after 2015.

That seems to imply that Northern and FGW (or future operators) are not guaranteed to keep their respective diesel units after they lease electric units.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/hammond20101125

 

[SWT_USER]

Is anything happening to the Greenford branch? Presumably not being electrified, likely just to keep the 2 coach FGW Turbos?

 

[YorkshireBear]

If you review the press statements it seems to imply that the 319s will be returned to the leasing company and then anyone operator will be free to lease them.

The new Thameslink and Crossrail rolling stock will enable the redeployment of hundreds of serviceable electric carriages currently used on Thameslink services. These carriages belong to rolling-stock leasing companies, but we expect they will be available at competitive leasing prices for re-use elsewhere, thus justifying further electrification of our network.

It also goes on to say that redeployed electric units will mean diesel units will be freed up for new leasing.

The redeployment of electric rolling stock to these routes will, in turn, free up hundreds of diesel units which will be available to Train Operators to lease as they become available in the period after 2015.

That seems to imply that Northern and FGW (or future operators) are not guaranteed to keep their respective diesel units after they lease electric units.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/hammond20101125

Yeah but how many companies are gonna accept pacers? only northern will want them XD northerns displaced untis are safe

cant say about FGW but i cant imagine many companies fighting for turbo's


in an article in Guardian it says manchester leeds sheffield york (and a few other northern stations) are to be expanded. Only place ive seen this, has it been anywhere else?

 

[northwichcat]

in an article in Guardian it says manchester leeds sheffield york (and a few other northern stations) are to be expanded. Only place ive seen this, has it been anywhere else?

The same statement says:

We have funding confirmed for developments at Reading, Birmingham, London Kings Cross and Gatwick Airport. In addition, investments on the East Coast Main Line and Midland Main Line and improvements in Yorkshire, on trans pennine routes, around Manchester and in South Wales will improve line speed, reliability and capacity of services.
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Yeah but how many companies are gonna accept pacers? only northern will want them XD northerns displaced untis are safe

It'll be mainly 150s and 156s that will directly be freed up by North West electrification which in turn should be cascaded down to other Northern lines to replace Pacers.

However, not knowing whether the franchise areas will still be the same in 2015 and with only limited information in the statements it's difficult to know what could happen and what won't happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

...in an article in Guardian it says manchester leeds sheffield york (and a few other northern stations) are to be expanded. Only place ive seen this, has it been anywhere else?

In hte DfT press release, it has this:

"...Subject to those negotiations, the Government expects additional carriages to be added on services into Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham, Bristol, London Paddington and London Waterloo."

Perhaps the Grauniad has confused 'stations' with 'services'... :roll:

 

[lm321412]

I would expect some of FCCs 313s, NXEAs 315s/317s, SWTs 455s to be retired through this investment plus 142s/143s/144s from the railway network.

As they mentioned new carriages into Birmingham, I guess the Desiro City could possibly be ordered for London Midland which will replace the 323s which could be sent to Northern??

Although another idea is that as there is 86 319s (48 - 50 for GW) Northern could take the rest of the 319s and displace the 323s downwards to LM and therefore boosting the local fleet around Birmingham??

 

[jon0844]

I don't know how structurally sound the 313s will be in the years to come, but if they were given a refurbishment like that done by Southern, surely they could be used elsewhere for some time (actually, I'd be happy with them to stay here)? They happily run at 75mph (and can even go faster!) and are perhaps the right length for some routes with shorter platforms?

I know that the press will quickly jump on the age of the trains and everyone will be up in arms, but I use them nearly every day and they're fine for journeys up to an hour or so.

 

[sprinterguy]

I've found the table relating to "New vehicles on the national rail network in England and Wales that will be introduced after 6 May 2010 and up to May 2019". It doesn't make for a particularly bright outlook on new rolling stock being introduced:

New vehicles to be introduced into service after May 2010
Intercity West Coast Class 390 (Pendolino) 106
National Express East Anglia Class 379 (Stansted Express) 120
London Midland Class 172 (West Midlands) 69
Thameslink Procurement started c. 1200
Crossrail Procurement due to start soon c. 600
Services between Manchester and Scotland New electric multiple units – subject to negotiation c.36
Chiltern Class 172 diesel multiple units 8
Total Over 2100

Although, it is pleasing to see that new electric trains for Manchester to Scotland services are included: 36 carriages; so what do we reckon: 9 four carriage EMUS or 12 three carriage EMUs?

 

[northwichcat]

Although another idea is that as there is 86 319s (48 - 50 for GW) Northern could take the rest of the 319s and displace the 323s downwards to LM and therefore boosting the local fleet around Birmingham??

Can't see any reason why that wouldn't work unless GMPTE complained as they originally funded the Manchester 323s. Although, what would go on to the GW electrified routes?

Not sure if it would create problems trying to double up 319s on Man United services though.

 

[sprinterguy]

Although another idea is that as there is 86 319s (48 - 50 for GW) Northern could take the rest of the 319s and displace the 323s downwards to LM and therefore boosting the local fleet around Birmingham??

Once Great Western takes it's share of 319s (about 50), I'm not sure there'd be enough 319s remaining to cover both the new north west electrified services as well as the existing 323 operated routes to allow the Manchester 323s to move to Birmingham. Other than that, it's a good idea.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There are (or atleast were) 39 319s without first class (13x319/0 + 26x319/3) which would be brilliant for Northern, but I fear not enough to replace the 323s and displaced the other units under the wires. That leaves 47 with first class (7x319/2 + 40x319/4) for FGW.

But I rather suspect that FGW will get the 319/0s aswell (given that they are going to be refurbished and could be given a first class section), leaving Northern with just the 26 319/3s.

 

[Aictos]

Once Great Western takes it's share of 319s (about 50), I'm not sure there'd be enough 319s remaining to cover both the new north west electrified services as well as the existing 323 operated routes to allow the Manchester 323s to move to Birmingham. Other than that, it's a good idea.

What about the 317s and 321s that FCC have, with the 319s being cascaded what's stopping the 317s and 321 from also being cascaded?

I still think FCC ought to have stayed with the 377s and order two batches, first batch for the TL and the second batch for the GN to displace the 319s elsewhere.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think 321's should be displaced from LM it cant help them having an extraordinary small fleet
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doesnt look so good once you read that table, i think overcrowding by 2020 will be insane, hoeopfully by then a new DMU and EMU order will have come in so it wont be just them before 2020

 

[WatcherZero]

I've found the table relating to "New vehicles on the national rail network in England and Wales that will be introduced after 6 May 2010 and up to May 2019". It doesn't make for a particularly bright outlook on new rolling stock being introduced:

[/B]

Although, it is pleasing to see that new electric trains for Manchester to Scotland services are included: 36 carriages; so what do we reckon: 9 four carriage EMUS or 12 three carriage EMUs?

Yowzers, traditional double counting as new rolling stock returns with a vengence, so the only new stock is really the 1200, 600 and 36. And the '300 new for undecided franchises' in Hammonds speech is actually 300 already under construction and assigned.

 

[Class377/5]

What about the 317s and 321s that FCC have, with the 319s being cascaded what's stopping the 317s and 321 from also being cascaded?

I still think FCC ought to have stayed with the 377s and order two batches, first batch for the TL and the second batch for the GN to displace the 319s elsewhere.

It's already been announced that the 365/313/321 are staying on the GN. The NXEMU are doing new services. (As for the Kings Lynn's services, anyone's guesses is as good as mine as IEP was supposed to be replacing these services!)

One thing no-ones mentioned at all on here is the fact that the new Thameslink (NXEMU) trains will actually displace some of Southern and Southeastern's trains as the new trains wont actually replace services but renew the fleet. For example one TLP is complete services like the Orpington to London will run off new stock releasing Networkers to be sent elsewhere.

As for the link between GN and TL, currently Network Rail has started work this month on lighting the tunnels prior to fitting out with all the signalling, track and OHLE.

Basic plan from memory is as follows

First 12 car NXEMU arrives and a years testing on line takes place. Unit will be based at Three bridges new depot.

The first 23 NXEMU (all 12 cars) replace the 23x 377/5 which return to Southern.

A mix of 12 and 8 car then come into service. So fact plans include trains from places like Horsham - Victoria (12 car) and Orpington - Victoria (8 car).

FCC recieve 8 car trains to replace the 319's on the Luton/St Albans - Sutton loop services. This services are the last to recieve new stock.

Note under current plans FCC will only be running 12 car new trains (replacing all Bedford - Brighton services) along side 4/8 services to Sutton and Kent destinations with Southeastern running 8 car NXEMU before FCC does!

Grant all this can and will likely change before we get to 2019 but it gives an idea of how these (upto) 1200 carriages will arrive.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/hammond20101125

As part of the Thameslink programme, we will procure a new fleet of trains – up to 1,200 new carriages. This is in addition to around 600 new carriages which will be provided for the Crossrail project. The new Thameslink and Crossrail rolling stock will enable the redeployment of hundreds of serviceable electric carriages currently used on Thameslink services. These carriages belong to rolling-stock leasing companies, but we expect they will be available at competitive leasing prices for re-use elsewhere, thus justifying further electrification of our network.

One last thing, How will Crossrail EMU's help release Thameslink trains? Or is this a reinforcing the point one to many times?

 

[tbtc]

I cetainly wouldnt be happy with HST's being replaced with 319's. 319's are no better than 323's in my opinion.

I don't think people would, but (as a Cross Country used) I'd be annoyed if HSTs were running regularly on trips entirely under wires whilst we are crammed onto Voyagers

 

[jd]

As they mentioned new carriages into Birmingham, I guess the Desiro City could possibly be ordered for London Midland which will replace the 323s which could be sent to Northern??

The new carriages in Birmingham probably refers to the order of class 172s to replace the class 150s, which was placed LONG ago.

 

[tbtc]

Will there actually be enough 319s to run 100% electric services on all the newly electrified routes (exc. Manchester to Scotland)?

There are 86 319s and FGW (or the future operator) will require 48 x 319s just to replace the Turbo services

48?

Is that taking off the units required for Gatwick/ Greenford/ Basingstoke/ Bicester etc (none of which are getting electrified) - these will still require Turbostars (or equivalent diesel traction)

Plus are all other Thames Valley branches being wired?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once Great Western takes it's share of 319s (about 50), I'm not sure there'd be enough 319s remaining to cover both the new north west electrified services as well as the existing 323 operated routes to allow the Manchester 323s to move to Birmingham. Other than that, it's a good idea.

I'm not certain of the maths on the Thames Valley (Gatwick/ Greenford/ Basingstoke/ Bicester stay diesel?).

However, if there are enough 319s it'd be really good to have a big Northern fleet to get rid of the 321s and 323s (WY Metro would never allow the 333s to go, of course).

The 321s could certainly be used elsewhere (as other TOCs have them) and AFAIK four car 319s would be okay at all stations currently served by three car 323s. Plus there's then scope for route like the Crewe - Airport - Piccadilly extending onto other Airport - Piccadilly services etc, or Stoke - Piccadilly - Blackpool. Or...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The NXEMU are doing new services

I wish they weren't called that - I keep thinking these are EMUs for NXEA when I see the name