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Railways running alongside trunk roads

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AlastairFraser

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Where do you start with this one?! Easily rebuilt? Electric Spine is dead and the flyover at Didcot isn't going to be the huge cost barrier.....
Perhaps it wouldn't be easy or cheap, but it would remove a lot of traffic from some very busy junctions and lines and potentially provide a new passenger service to large swathe of Hampshire,Berkshire and Oxfordshire,in an area that has a lot of house building at the moment and the developers I bet would make a contribution towards a railway at least from Didcot to Newbury with future provision for extension towards Winchester and the SWML to relieve the A34 and provide a direct rail link to Harwell Campus, potentially Greenham Park and perhaps a park and ride for the A34/M4 interchange at Chievley.
 
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Bald Rick

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Perhaps it wouldn't be easy or cheap, but it would remove a lot of traffic from some very busy junctions and lines and potentially provide a new passenger service to large swathe of Hampshire,Berkshire and Oxfordshire,in an area that has a lot of house building at the moment and the developers I bet would make a contribution towards a railway at least from Didcot to Newbury with future provision for extension towards Winchester and the SWML to relieve the A34 and provide a direct rail link to Harwell Campus, potentially Greenham Park and perhaps a park and ride for the A34/M4 interchange at Chievley.

Getting on for £2 billion pounds of railway for about 40 freight trains a day, and perhaps a £20m contribution from developers?

Doesn’t sound like a really good case to me.
 

AlastairFraser

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Getting on for £2 billion pounds of railway for about 40 freight trains a day, and perhaps a £20m contribution from developers?

Doesn’t sound like a really good case to me.
It's just a case of political will. If we can spend £28.8 billion on roads and over £50 billion on one railway with several parallel routes already, the money can be found to rebuild this railway and take lots of diesel freight off busy lines where passenger capacity could then easily be expanded without spending up to a billion on other infrastructure projects which then wouldn't be needed (Southcote Junction grade separation,increasing capacity on the GWML/SWML,possible conversion of the SWML from Basingstoke to Southampton to 25kv from 750V third rail.
 

tasky

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In Belgium the LGV from Brussels to Liege and Aachen runs right beside the E40 from just south east of Leuven to Kemexhe just west of Liege and again east of Liege from Herve to Walhorn on the approach to Aachen. That's about 50km west of Liege and 20km east.

Interestingly one can drive along the E40 and scarcely see a train - one or two in each direction if one is lucky. I have no idea how the financials stack up with such line occupation!

Line 25N between Mechelen and Brussels airport is another Belgian one, it actually runs on the unusually wide central reservation of the E19 motorway.

Here's a video - you enter the central reservation from about 3 minutes 15 seconds in

 

HSTEd

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Unfortunately not. If you are building over, you still need to buy the land. And it costs a lot to build long bridges.

If you are building under, you still need to compensate the land owners above, and it costs a lot to build tunnels. A lot, lot more than buying land except when it is residential.

You do however avoid blight payments and dealing with vast numbers of protests and vexatious lawsuits.
How long did the HS2 bill committee spend hearing endless petitions, or discussing them, or the endless route revisions due to complainants of environmental impacts?

Subsoil payments are essentially flat fees and are negligible if the tunnel is buried deep enough that basement developments at future properties are unlikely to be measurably affected.

Buying land takes a long time, whilst tunnels are expensive they involve far fewer significant stakeholders and also cause much less disruption to the surrounding environment, which also reduces compensation and other costs. You don't have to mess around building replacement roads or moving power cables or water mains or telephone line trunks.

The project will cost more but it will actually get built in a reasonable timeframe. You can also proceed in straight lines to your destination.
Given the absurd costs of building anything in the UK these days, adding a couple more billion to put it underground and be done with it is peanuts.

This is why we don't build new electricity transmission lines on shore any more, we bury them in the seabed, to avoid the permitting and public inquiries and the numerous protests.
 

coppercapped

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Line 25N between Mechelen and Brussels airport is another Belgian one, it actually runs on the unusually wide central reservation of the E19 motorway.

Here's a video - you enter the central reservation from about 3 minutes 15 seconds in

Fascinating. Thank you.

When I lived and worked in Belgium some 35 years ago I used to drive along that motorway quite frequently. I was told then that the very wide section was originally intended to be the high speed section of the motorway with limited access - but that all died when speed limits on motorways became widespread and the price of fuel went up!
 

Mikey C

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The Subway line to Chicago O'Hare airport runs in the middle of an expressway for several miles

2657435444_a983a9bacf_b.jpg
 

PartyOperator

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Similar deal with the line to Dulles airport from Washington DC. They have an interesting arrangement where the road was built with space for the railway and construction of the railway is now being funded at least in part by tolls from the road. Should be complete sometime next year.
 

tasky

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Fascinating. Thank you.

When I lived and worked in Belgium some 35 years ago I used to drive along that motorway quite frequently. I was told then that the very wide section was originally intended to be the high speed section of the motorway with limited access - but that all died when speed limits on motorways became widespread and the price of fuel went up!

That's very interesting - I had always wondered why there was so much central reservation going spare!
 

Bald Rick

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You do however avoid blight payments and dealing with vast numbers of protests and vexatious lawsuits.

I’m afraid you don’t avoid blight if you are building on viaducts in urban areas - quite the opposite in fact, you will get many more blight and objections.

With tunnelling you will have reduced objections and blight claims, but it doesn’t eliminate them. There is also the issue at portals and vent shaft work sites, which can be significant.
 

HSTEd

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I’m afraid you don’t avoid blight if you are building on viaducts in urban areas - quite the opposite in fact, you will get many more blight and objections.
Yes, I very much doubt anything will ever be built on a viaduct outside of a junction complex ever again.
Especially with modern trains having far superior gradient climbing performance and braking control.
With tunnelling you will have reduced objections and blight claims, but it doesn’t eliminate them. There is also the issue at portals and vent shaft work sites, which can be significant.
Anything that streamlines the construction process is a good thing I think. Just look how long it takes to deal with endless complaints and campaigning, and the legal processes to buy up blighted property and the like.
Portals are less problematic I think because in this case they would be directly adjacent to the station, which means anyone blighted by the portal tends to benefit from being close to the station - which draws the poison somewhat.

The vent shafts are sufficiently compact work sites that I am not too worried about them, honestly I am wondering if it might not be best to provide a vent shaft/escape route every 800-900m and forgo the service tunnel (1km max spacings are apparently allowed for that) - which means that with modern TBMs we can put both tracks in a single, very large, bore.

Given the length of modern TBM drives, the area of worksites in a tunnel system is always going to be much less than a surface alignment. And the worksites can be sited relatively flexibly for reduced disruption.
 
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