Railway Witness Statement on Thameslink

[hereforanswers]

Hi All,

Just wanted some comments on this. I was recently travelling on the Thameslink and I forgot to buy a ticket, once I saw the ticket inspectors I remembered and bought a ticket for the journey. They scanned my ticket and asked why I only bought it recently. I apologised and said I forgot to buy one as soon as I got on the train. We had a civil conservation and they understood how I could have forgot because on my typical route. They handed me a Witness Statement and said that I will receive a letter shortly if Thameslink wants to take the matter any further.

I have never had anything like this happen before. How is this likely to proceed? This is a bit more nunaced than most other cases because I did have a ticket, but I should of bought it earlier. I am looking for a bit of reassurance because I am very anxious on what the result of this may be, I feel like a complete idiot for forgetting to buy the ticket as soon as I got on the train.

PS. the fare for the ticket was around £15.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

From a legal point of view your are required to be in possession of a valid ticket for your journey before you board the train where facilities exist to purchase a ticket with your chosen payment method. Facilities to purchase a ticket mean an open ticket machine or ticket vending machine.

What happens next is that GTR will write to you in the next few weeks saying that your case has been provisionally authorised for prosecution but asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. I suggest replying with a short, concise letter mentioning:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven't come to their attention before. An aggravating factor is that you have short fared before, GTR wil investigate your online ticket purchasing history so might want to ask you about other suspicious instences and factor these into the cost of an out of court settlement.

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the cost of the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid tickets your did purchase. In addition you will have to pay an admin fee, typically around £150.

When it arrives, post a copy of GTR's letter in this thread (but do redact any personal details), along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[hereforanswers]

I see, so I will have to pay a fine because I did not have the ticket from the start of my journey?

I figured since they were understanding of the situation they would be a chance that this would be imply brushed under the rug. I am more than willing to pay the fine and the additional admin costs, but I am worried that they might take me to court due to my past short fares. I am really anxious about getting a criminal record, it was a stupid mistake.

 

[Hadders]

I see, so I will have to pay a fine because I did not have the ticket from the start of my journey?

Technically it's not a fine. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction. What you want to pay is an out of court settlement which will feel like paying a fine but an out of court settlement doesn't result in a criminal record.

I figured since they were understanding of the situation they would be a chance that this would be imply brushed under the rug. I am more than willing to pay the fine and the additional admin costs, but I am worried that they might take me to court due to my past short fares. I am really anxious about getting a criminal record, it was a stupid mistake.

GTR won't brush this sort of thing under the carpet. Fare evasion is rife on the railway and from what you've told us it seems you have evaded your fares on multiple occasions.

Many people would argue that someone evading fares on a regular basis should end up in court. The good news for you is that GTR are one of the more pragmatic train companies at dealing with this sort of thing, and I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement if you co-operate with them. Had you been caught by an insoector working for Transport for London then your would probably be looking at a trip to the Magistrates Court.

 

[hereforanswers]

Technically it's not a fine. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction. What you want to pay is an out of court settlement which will feel like paying a fine but an out of court settlement doesn't result in a criminal record.


GTR won't brush this sort of thing under the carpet. Fare evasion is rife on the railway and from what you've told us it seems you have evaded your fares on multiple occasions.

Many people would argue that someone evading fares on a regular basis should end up in court. The good news for you is that GTR are one of the more pragmatic train companies at dealing with this sort of thing, and I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement if you co-operate with them. Had you been caught by an insoector working for Transport for London then your would probably be looking at a trip to the Magistrates Court.

Worrying to hear, but better than what I thought was going to happen. Was honestly thinking I might get sent to Jail, or get this on my Criminal Record. This is the only time I have ever been stopped by the revenue inspection team so I hope they will take that into account. In addition, I pay monthly for my unizone ticket pass, which shows I almost always have a valid ticket for all my journeys.

Also, is it weird that the revenue protection team did not fine me on the spot? I thought that would've been the case but that did not happen. Is it worse that they have given me a Railway Witness Statement?

 

[furlong]

Also, is it weird that the revenue protection team did not fine me on the spot?

It's just the arcane framework they are operating within. There is no method available to "fine" someone like you on the spot. (Some fare evaders can be required to pay Penalty Fares, but they cannot be imposed on people who did show them a valid ticket like you did. In your case they would probably have been gathering evidence to try to show that you committed an offence earlier in your journey - not already being in possession of a valid ticket when boarding the train.)

 

[hereforanswers]

It's just the arcane framework they are operating within. There is no method available to "fine" someone like you on the spot. (Some fare evaders can be required to pay Penalty Fares, but they cannot be imposed on people who did show them a valid ticket like you did. In your case they would probably have been gathering evidence to try to show that you committed an offence earlier in your journey - not already being in possession of a valid ticket when boarding the train.)

Ohhh I understand now, so I will receive a penalty because I admitted that I had forgot to buy it at the start of my Journey, which is in violaten with their guidelines that you must have a ticket before you board.

Does that still mean they will look through my previous purchases? Based on what you have described and the information I provided to the officers, it seems rationale to simply charge me for my delayed purchase of my ticket.

 

[furlong]

If you bought a ticket for the full journey that was valid, but just bought after joining the train instead of before, then there is no further fare due. However train companies still seem to like to prosecute for the offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket and yes, they might trawl through your previous purchases and ask you to explain voluntarily anything odd that they see. (Thameslink will nearly always settle out-of-court if you co-operate, apologise and pay their costs.) The ticket has the time on it, so they would see you bought it too late, whether or not you told them.

 

[hereforanswers]

If you bought a ticket for the full journey that was valid, but just bought after joining the train instead of before, then there is no further fare due. However train companies still seem to like to prosecute for the offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket and yes, they might trawl through your previous purchases and ask you to explain voluntarily anything odd that they see. (Thameslink will nearly always settle out-of-court if you co-operate, apologise and pay their costs.) The ticket has the time on it, so they would see you bought it too late, whether or not you told them.

Thats extremely reassuring, thank you.

To be honest, I wasn't aware that they could see when I bought the ticket, because I have bought late tickets in the past and not had any issue. But when asked why did I buy it so late, I immediately told them that I had completely forgot until 5 or so minutes ago. Following that, we had a nice conversation about what I did was wrong and how I've never had an issue like this before etc... All of the officers were extremely kind and reassuring, which lead me to believe that this may lead to nothing. But, I just get so anxious over these things, especially since I don't know when the letter will be arriving.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thats extremely reassuring, thank you.

To be honest, I wasn't aware that they could see when I bought the ticket, because I have bought late tickets in the past and not had any issue. But when asked why did I buy it so late, I immediately told them that I had completely forgot until 5 or so minutes ago. Following that, we had a nice conversation about what I did was wrong and how I've never had an issue like this before etc... All of the officers were extremely kind and reassuring, which lead me to believe that this may lead to nothing. But, I just get so anxious over these things, especially since I don't know when the letter will be arriving.

They now have ticket scanners that when set up with the train time they are checking tickets on it will automatically alert the inspector to a ticket bought after that train left the station concerned. AIUI.

Since the rule is buy before you board this alerts to a breach of that rule.

 

[hereforanswers]

They now have ticket scanners that when set up with the train time they are checking tickets on it will automatically alert the inspector to a ticket bought after that train left the station concerned. AIUI.

Since the rule is buy before you board this alerts to a breach of that rule

Thank you for the clarification, I thought they only cared that you have paid for the ticket, not when it was actually paid.

 

[BRX]

The reason that they care is that if they did nothing about it, lots of people would only ever buy a ticket on the minority of journeys where they saw a ticket inspector coming. While you say you "forgot" it seems quite reasonable to suspect that was your strategy too.

 

[hereforanswers]

I understand.

How would you recommend that I structure my letter. Do I admit to all other short-fares that I have committed? Or, do I wait to see what the letter entails and only reply to what they find?

I really do just want this over and done with, I hope I don’t have to wait long to hear back from them.

 

[Hadders]

You'll find examples of letters you can base your reply on in other threads in this section of the forum, and I've suggested some points you should mention in my first reply upthread.

As for admitting to other instances of short faring it depends on what GTR ask you in their letter. You need to tell the truth in your reply, but generally speaking I would only answer the questions they ask you and not offer any additional information that could incriminate you.

 

[hereforanswers]

Sounds good,

My only issue is that on this instance, I genuinely forgot to buy the ticket, but in the past I have short fared. So, I don't want to make it seem as though this is a one of occurrence, because I know it isn't. This is why in my response to the letter, I will likely only refer to that journey itself, unless if I am asked otherwise.

I think my rationale for forgetting is quite sound, especially after the revenue enforcement officers understood my point of view and agreed that it would be easy for me to make that mistake, given the context.

Additionally, I was reading a thread from a few months ago, which entailed someone getting caught for short faring. Despite them having a purchase history of repeated short fares, the settlement payment was only in reference to the one they got caught on. Is this quite common? or will they likely look back at all other short fares, some of which are from over a year ago, and charge me accordingly?

 

[BRX]

I don't think anyone here is going to be able to reassure you that they aren't going to look at your purchase history. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I doubt that the nature of the conversation you had with the officers is relevant.

You say you have bought "late tickets" in the past without issue. Were they for the same journey at the same sort of time?

 

[hereforanswers]

Yes, I have bought a ticket off of an inspector on a Thameslink prior to this occurring, although it was about a year ago now.

Additionally, when they check your purchase history, what do they look for?

 

[Cuthbert]

Yes, I have bought a ticket off of an inspector on a Thameslink prior to this occurring, although it was about a year ago now.

Additionally, when they check your purchase history, what do they look for?

Short fare evasion similar to what yours looks like.
Kings Cross ticket to Finsbury and getting on a train that does not stop at Finsbury.
They will see when the ticket was scanned at the barriers and looks at the train timetable.

Also donoughting/sandwiching similar to short fare but another ticket to get past the gates at the end of the journey. So say Kings Cross to Waterbeach (If it has barriers I don't know the station) you'd get Kings Cross to Finsbury then what ever station is next to Waterbeach to Waterbeach.

They'll check rail cards purchased. Anything really.
So if you have been short faring they charge a standard single Kings Cross to Waterbeach then Waterbeach to Kings Cross.

But I am no expert others might give more accurate explanation.

 

[Hadders]

Additionally, I was reading a thread from a few months ago, which entailed someone getting caught for short faring. Despite them having a purchase history of repeated short fares, the settlement payment was only in reference to the one they got caught on. Is this quite common? or will they likely look back at all other short fares, some of which are from over a year ago, and charge me accordingly?

I usually advise what the worst scenario is when it comes to settlements. It's possible that they might only look want reimbursement for the journey on the day you were caught but it's best to assume the worst case scenario.

 

[John R]

Sounds good,

My only issue is that on this instance, I genuinely forgot to buy the ticket, but in the past I have short fared. So, I don't want to make it seem as though this is a one of occurrence, because I know it isn't. This is why in my response to the letter, I will likely only refer to that journey itself, unless if I am asked otherwise.

I think my rationale for forgetting is quite sound, especially after the revenue enforcement officers understood my point of view and agreed that it would be easy for me to make that mistake, given the context.

They will no doubt hear “I forgot to buy a ticket” numerous times during their working day, and bluntly won’t be interested in any excuse offered as to why. The reason they were so nice is that it’s a strategy to deal with the situation quickly and in a non- confrontational manner and let the back office sort it out remotely with no risk of conflict escalating.

 

[hereforanswers]

I usually advise what the worst scenario is when it comes to settlements. It's possible that they might only look want reimbursement for the journey on the day you were caught but it's best to assume the worst case scenario.

what would the worst case scenario be?

 

[Spaceship323]

what would the worst case scenario be?

As Hadders outlined in post #2, the fares avoided plus around £150 to cover admin fees

 

[hereforanswers]

what is the likelihood that I get taken to court over this?

 

[AlterEgo]

what is the likelihood that I get taken to court over this?

The company usually settles if you’re fully compliant with them.

 

[hereforanswers]

How you recommend I structure my response? Because in the past I have short fared so they don't have much of a reason to believe me If I simply say that I forgot this time. But I did say to the officer that I was not my intention to no pay for the fare for that journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2024 ==

Also when looking at your purchase history, is it just trainline they check or also your bank statements?

 

[AlterEgo]

How you recommend I structure my response? Because in the past I have short fared so they don't have much of a reason to believe me If I simply say that I forgot this time. But I did say to the officer that I was not my intention to no pay for the fare for that journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2024 ==

Also when looking at your purchase history, is it just trainline they check or also your bank statements?

They can’t check your bank statements. If you aren’t asked about short faring you should not mention it. If you are, you should obviously cover that point.

 

[hereforanswers]

alright, yea most of my short fares are from a year and a half ago, so i’m not sure if they’ll look that far back.

also, when you get the letter do you respond my email or letter them back?

 

[Titfield]

alright, yea most of my short fares are from a year and a half ago, so i’m not sure if they’ll look that far back.

also, when you get the letter do you respond my email or letter them back?

Either though if you send a letter by signed for delivery this gives you proof of delivery (which we have seen to be useful as there have been cases of letters going astray).

 

[hereforanswers]

Alright, I'll probably be send an email as a response. What is the average wait time for Thameslink to respond to this, as I've heard fro some it can take as just short of 6 months. I want them to send me a letter quickly so this can be over and done with. In the meantime, I might start constructing my response to the letter, regarding what happened on the day, etc...

 

[WesternLancer]

alright, yea most of my short fares are from a year and a half ago, so i’m not sure if they’ll look that far back.

also, when you get the letter do you respond my email or letter them back?

It will tell you on the letter how they want you to respond. I think with Thameslink they don't accept e-mails (apart from to inform them of change of address). When you get their letter it will state clearly where to reply to.

You can also look at other threads involving Thameslink where people up load the sort of letters they receive, which will probably be very similar to what you will be sent.

Yes, it's a good idea to start drafting your response as you suggest. It's hard to predict how long it will take them to write to you - they deal with hundreds of these cases so just depends on things like their workload etc