Railway-wise, what is each country best at?

[johncrossley]

Going back to the original post, so far as I can make out the UK is unusual in the amount of real time data that's made publicly available.

Maybe I've just been unlucky in the countries I've been to recently, but they didn't seem to have anything with the functionality of Traksy, Realtimetrains and the like.

I thought many if not most operators in Europe put their raw live running information online, so the functionality largely depends on the skill and imagination of the enthusiasts within each country.

One good thing about the Dutch data is that it shows the locations of each train (presumably through GPS-style satellite positioning) as well as the current speed. For example, this is using the "OV-info" app.

 

[AdamWW]

Many if not most operators in Europe put their raw live running information online, so the functionality largely depends on the skill and imagination of the enthusiasts within each country.

One good thing about the Dutch data is that it shows the locations of each train (presumably through GPS-style satellite positioning) as well as the current speed. For example, this is using the "OV-info" app.

Transport or infrastructure operators?

I've seen various sites where passenger trains can be tracked (and I think the official NS site was showing train type and even number before we had that information on Realtimetrains in the UK). But I haven't seen information provided at the infrastructure level covering everything* that moves that we have in the UK. (e.g. what train is currently in this section)

If there are such sites for other European countries I'd be most interested to know.

*OK I'm guessing that it's not *everything* and that the Royal Train and Nuclear Waste trains might not appear.

 

[WideRanger]

Japan focuses on speed and moving high volumes of passengers at once

While true, I would put it a different way. Most of the major population centres that are the source of the huge numbers of people are because of the trains. What I think Japan has done better than many is taking an integrated approach to planning population centres around the railway. In the case of some of the private railways, they had a large stake in the increasing land values around newly developed lines. So a bit like Metroland in London, but far more extensive and far more ambitious.

Ironically, it is one of the contributing factors to the depopulation of the countryside, which is rapidly making a lot of the rural routes nonviable.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Finland - reasonably fast*, good quality trains with some interesting features, eg: the restaurant wagons are slowly becomming mobile coffee shops with reserved seating. The night trains are highly regarded. The system overall is easy to use, integrates with the commuter trains in the Helsinki region and now Tampere too, electronic ticketing etc. Pretty much everything is now run with the double-deck wagons with the exception of the Pendolinos and some regional traffic run with single, diesel railcars. Extensive electrification with only a few routes remaining diesel operated.

Some issues with politics of course and VR has the habit of making a yearly threat of cutting services (Pieksämäki-Varkaus-Joensuu was a particularly fraught reduction in services).

*fast...despite a surprising amount of 200kmh track there is a suprising amount of 140kmh running.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Amount of loco-haulage?

Limited to 130km/h in most cases, although perfectly capable of 160km/h. The absolutely insane rule that cabs must be double manned (or have ECTS installed) is one of the worst things about the Polish railways, and is widely believed to be only in place as a nod to the powerful trade unions.

 

[DanielB]

One good thing about the Dutch data is that it shows the locations of each train (presumably through GPS-style satellite positioning) as well as the current speed. For example, this is using the "OV-info" app.\

The speed however is an estimate by the OV-info app based on position information. I've seen buses running at 170 km/h in that app

 

[AdamWW]

Limited to 130km/h in most cases, although perfectly capable of 160km/h. The absolutely insane rule that cabs must be double manned (or have ECTS installed) is one of the worst things about the Polish railways, and is widely believed to be only in place as a nod to the powerful trade unions.

Well the UK used to having something similar.

Interesting though. I did a trip in Poland on a loco hauled train a few years ago and it changed direction several times. I didn't think there were two people in the cab because everything seemed to be done by one person - getting out to uncouple, back in to run the engine round and come up to the coaches from the other end (carefully peering through the windscreen as there was nobody on the ground to guide him) then jumping out again to couple up.

(Though thinking about it you'd think the guard could have helped out).

And as an aside it's fascinating seeing the speed at which locomotives are brought up to occupied carriages in some countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And as an aside it's fascinating seeing the speed at which locomotives are brought up to occupied carriages in some countries.

Approach speeds are generally much higher in other countries than the UK - the speed DB trains go into bays is quite something, I remember going from Munich to Salzburg on DB a while back, had my head out of the window on the approach and we were near enough at linespeed at the end of the bay - of course the brakes were chucked in hard and we stopped, almost in one go, in a perfect position. Not much room for error though!

 

[AdamWW]

Approach speeds are generally much higher in other countries than the UK - the speed DB trains go into bays is quite something, I remember going from Munich to Salzburg on DB a while back, had my head out of the window on the approach and we were near enough at linespeed at the end of the bay - of course the brakes were chucked in hard and we stopped, almost in one go, in a perfect position. Not much room for error though!

Watching Munich S-bahn trains couple together is certainly interesting. Done somewhat more briskly than in the UK - the trains are together and doors released almost before you know it.

I caught a loco hauled train from Munich recently (an "Alex") and the speed at which the stock reversed into the (terminal) platform beforehand was quite impressive. But not as fast as I saw a Regiojet come in backwards in Bratislava a few years ago, though I suppose there was more margin for error with it being a through platform in that case.

 

[Austriantrain]

Approach speeds are generally much higher in other countries than the UK - the speed DB trains go into bays is quite something, I remember going from Munich to Salzburg on DB a while back, had my head out of the window on the approach and we were near enough at linespeed at the end of the bay - of course the brakes were chucked in hard and we stopped, almost in one go, in a perfect position. Not much room for error though!

That must have been some years ago. Salzburg hasn’t had any bays for some time now, but those that existed where indeed accessible at quite high speeds, being situated in between the main running lines. Not the rule though anywhere in Europe, you will usually have a 40 kph - maybe 60 - turnout somewhere on the approach if you go into a bay.

Though if the platform is situated on a main running line, high approach speeds are indeed the norm in many European countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That must have been some years ago. Salzburg hasn’t had any bays for some time now, but those that existed where indeed accessible at quite high speeds, being situated in between the main running lines. Not the rule though anywhere in Europe, you will usually have a 40 kph - maybe 60 - turnout somewhere on the approach if you go into a bay.

Yep, it was about 2006 or thereabouts. While back now!

Though if the platform is situated on a main running line, high approach speeds are indeed the norm in many European countries.

Whereas in the UK speeds are generally very low. Though curiously Class 195s seem to be driven with a very fast approach compared to the UK norm, including into terminal platforms (Windermere was where I first noticed it).

 

[Austriantrain]

Whereas in the UK speeds are generally very low. Though curiously Class 195s seem to be driven with a very fast approach compared to the UK norm, including into terminal platforms (Windermere was where I first noticed it).

That’s something that always strikes me in France too. They invest billions in HSL and then literally creep around for long distances approaching most of their stations, losing quite some time through this.

 

[railfan99]

Perhaps because many of you do not travel to Asia, it barely rates a mention above, apart from Japan and mainland communist China.

Democratic Taiwan is excellent for its variety, from high speed rail on the main route from Taipei to a very goiod airport line, and pleasant branch lines such as close to Sun Moon Lake.

India is great for its 25 car sleeping car trains, with all berths reserved and sometimes turning over three times on a close to 40 hour full journey.

Sir Lanka is terrific (or was before its economic and geopolitical troubles) for efficient signal boxes on the main Colombo - Kandy line and some heritage equipment still operating (think wooden passenger cars) and like India, its attitude to facilitating enjoyment by allowing passengers to stand by (and sometimes sit down on) open doorways. I've not seen anyone injured (which is not to say it doesn't occur, but we cossetted Westerners are risk averse).

South Korea is great for high speed train frequency (and punctuality) between Seoul and the underrated port city of Busan. Plus like Japan, the occasion al 'Asian-style' gaudy tourist train with unusual car interiors.

Australia is great at moving coal, iron ore and bulk mineral products as well as intermodal trains (although not all capitals can be reached by double stacked trains). The suburban railways of Melbourne and Sydney can also have (for that class of operation) good frequencies, and V/Line in Victoria often has better frequencies than on many UK secondary routes.

Thailand shows how to efficiently operate a properly staffed narrow gauge system. Great sleeping car trains that are clean and comfortable.

I will shortly be in UK and Europe so will be interested to see what's changed.

 

[miklcct]

For example, the Netherlands is essentially a glorified metro which allows passengers to use a single smartcard throughout the country.

I love this.

I hope the expansion of PAYG in London and South East can cover a much larger area than planned - at least I hope I can see it covers the whole of the current Network Railcard area and the whole system becomes a glorified metro, with easily-identified routes and turn-up-and-go frequency.

I would say that the best of each country is:
* China: high-speed intercity and regional travel
* Finland & Sweden: segregated commuter trains on national infrastructure with integrated city transport ticketing
* Hong Kong: efficiency, reliability and capacity

 

[Austriantrain]

I also find the Railjet superb. Better than anything DB has on offer. Comfortable and a smooth ride.

That‘s how subjective the topic is. Regarding seating and general atmosphere, I much prefer the ICE. If it weren’t for the perennial toilet problems on the ICE-T… (which I use frequently).

Apart from that, what’s good in Austria?
- Continuously improving timetables with increasingly good integration of services and generally decent punctuality
- easiness of use due to the Klimaticket
- much improved rolling stock in the last decade with more to come

Not ideal:
- very often, lack of capacity and thus overcrowding
- even if the punctuality is decent, it is still not good enough for a reliable Takt timetable and too many connections are missed
- and in general, that it is so much less good than Switzerland

From that, you can easily infer that I consider the Swiss by far the best in Europe. The numbers bear this out too because they are also by far the country with the highest rail usage. Of course, everyone of us will find a couple of things that are not perfect there, but in general, it would be hard to improve on them. Their main problem now is too much success and not knowing where to put all those passengers.

 

[AF91]

Having lived in Germany for a year I found their S Bahn services to be great. Even though I was living at the very outer fringes of Frankfurt's system I had three stopping services on three different routes and one express to get me into the city center each hour. The stopping services also had the advantage of running through city centre tunnels to call at the main shopping street which was always helpful if trying to travel back with shopping.

It was a clock face timetable too so after a week or so I didn't have to refer to timetables as the departure times were engrained in my memory.

I wasn't a big fan of the ICE though. Seemed very expensive, certainly in comparison with local travel, and every time I used it we seemed to be heavily delayed.

 

[Austriantrain]

The Swiss connections are more reliable, however the Dutch ones are usually more tightly timed, so changing trains is not much slower than a direct train. In Switzerland, the connection times can be quite long, especially where trains turn around like at Luzern.

Swiss connections are mostly very tight and at many major stations, if you are not used to navigate them, you can get easily caught out, especially if you travel with luggage.

Lucerne and a couple of other places are exceptions because the infrastructure reaching them is not quite up to „Takt-Standard“ yet. Regarding Lucerne, plans to change that are afoot (and one should also notice how densely the two-track approach to Lucerne is used with up to 17 tph/direction into a terminal, also considering that most lines towards it are partly or wholly single-track and the junctions are not grade-separated).

But they usually wait a reasonable time for delayed connections, so there is less anxiety when making connections.

That is not my experience, at least not on the core network. If your train is late in Switzerland, you will usually lose 30 minutes because you will have to wait for the next connection. There simply is no capacity on the network to delay connecting trains.

 

[johncrossley]

I wasn't a big fan of the ICE though. Seemed very expensive, certainly in comparison with local travel

It's like Switzerland in that respect. The base fares need to be quite high so they can discount it by 50% with the BahnCard 50. After discount the fares are quite reasonable. Regular long distance travellers will have the BahnCard 100 for about 4,027 EUR a year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2022 ==

That is not my experience, at least not on the core network. If your train is late in Switzerland, you will usually lose 30 minutes because you will have to wait for the next connection. There simply is no capacity on the network to delay connecting trains.

I'm only talking about a few minutes wait. Even on the Zürich S-Bahn I've had a connection wait for me at Pfäffikon. I assumed it wouldn't wait because it is S-Bahn so I ran between the trains but I didn't need to as it waited another minute for other passengers to make the connection.

 

[Beebman]

I’m on the second of two days on SBB following two days in Austria. I thought the ÖBB was great but I must say the SBB is even better. RailJet is indeed very good but this double-deck IC I’m on heading for Bern is more comfortable and it feels smoother.

However it’s running about 20 minutes late! Apparently it’s due to an earlier ‘technical defect’. Not a problem for my plans thanks to the Taktfahrplan although the conductor just now was getting a lot of earache from other passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thailand shows how to efficiently operate a properly staffed narrow gauge system. Great sleeping car trains that are clean and comfortable.

I'd not say SRT was efficient. Like most things in the South East Asian countries working-class labour is very cheap so they can afford to "overstaff".

 

[Taunton]

The USA, for being able to design and build straightforward, completely unburstable, last a long time, diesel locos, and have done ever since WW2. They are also completely compatible with each other regardless of manufacturer, you can couple up a 1960s switcher to a brand new main line loco, and run the formation from either.

 

[TheSel]

Iceland - having no railways - has an admirable record for very low rates of late running and fares evasion.

 

[Austriantrain]

I’m on the second of two days on SBB following two days in Austria. I thought the ÖBB was great but I must say the SBB is even better. RailJet is indeed very good but this double-deck IC I’m on heading for Bern is more comfortable and it feels smoother.

However it’s running about 20 minutes late! Apparently it’s due to an earlier ‘technical defect’. Not a problem for my plans thanks to the Taktfahrplan although the conductor just now was getting a lot of earache from other passengers.

Are you on a (ex-)Bombardier DD EMU or on an IC2000 (ie) loco-hauled DD set? Unfortunately, the former have a reputation for unreliability (like many other Bombardier products) which is a particular problem in Switzerland as nobody there is used to unreliable trains…

 

[AdamWW]

I wasn't a big fan of the ICE though. Seemed very expensive, certainly in comparison with local travel, and every time I used it we seemed to be heavily delayed.

Personally I much prefer the German ICE appoach over the French model of fully reserved and demand priced TGVs (never mind the fact that they are now split into regular and "budget" services, the latter having compulsory check-in times and luggage charges etc. in a creditable attempt to erode the advantages of trains over air travel).
I don't think even any of the regular TGVs have proper restaurant cars either.

ICE reliability doesn't seem to great at the moment though.

I'd not say SRT was efficient. Like most things in the South East Asian countries working-class labour is very cheap so they can afford to "overstaff".

Depends on your definition of efficiency, doesn't it?

Is the efficient railway the one with no spare capacity that costs the minimum to run but falls apart at the first bit of trouble, or the one with spare trains and crews on hand so that the timetable still runs when there's disruption?

 

[Beebman]

Are you on a (ex-)Bombardier DD EMU or on an IC2000 (ie) loco-hauled DD set? Unfortunately, the former have a reputation for unreliability (like many other Bombardier products) which is a particular problem in Switzerland as nobody there is used to unreliable trains…

It was a loco-hauled DD set with 2 single deck IC coaches as strengtheners. The conductor later announced that the technical defect was with the track.

 

[Austriantrain]

It was a loco-hauled DD set with 2 single deck IC coaches as strengtheners. The conductor later announced that the technical defect was with the track.

Thanks. That can happen anywhere I suppose. The reason I asked is that I was on one of those EMU a couple of weeks ago and it had a technical fault, which led to 30 minutes delay. It was clear that the Swiss are not used to it…

 

[jamesontheroad]

Finland - reasonably fast*, good quality trains with some interesting features, eg: the restaurant wagons are slowly becomming mobile coffee shops with reserved seating. The night trains are highly regarded. The system overall is easy to use, integrates with the commuter trains in the Helsinki region and now Tampere too, electronic ticketing etc. Pretty much everything is now run with the double-deck wagons with the exception of the Pendolinos and some regional traffic run with single, diesel railcars. Extensive electrification with only a few routes remaining diesel operated.

Some issues with politics of course and VR has the habit of making a yearly threat of cutting services (Pieksämäki-Varkaus-Joensuu was a particularly fraught reduction in services).

*fast...despite a surprising amount of 200kmh track there is a suprising amount of 140kmh running.

Finland is very good at maintaining affordable and comfortable intercity services, but very poor at offering local or regional passenger rail outside the Helsinki area. It's also very bad at making it possible for new entrants. Politically, few in Finland want to see VR lose its monopoly. VR has actively scrapped older surplus rolling stock to make it harder for new entrants to secure vehicles with the unusual Finnish track and loading gauge.

Across the Gulf of Bothnia, Sweden is very good at maintaining low access charges and good conditions for new passenger and freight operators. Although I don't have the figures, I believe it's one of the cheapest countries per km and most receptive environments in which new operators (eg Snälltåget, MTRX, Flixtrain) can enter the market and compete with the state-owned incumbent.

Depending on whether you thinking this is a good thing or not, Sweden is very good at the digitalisation of passenger rail: there are no more ticket offices and almost everyone buys tickets digitally through apps or websites. It is consequently very bad at making the rail system accessible for foreigners, refugees or anyone without a smartphone or credit/debit card.

 

[AdamWW]

It was a loco-hauled DD set with 2 single deck IC coaches as strengtheners. The conductor later announced that the technical defect was with the track.

Was there access between the single and double deck coaches? The ones I've seen in Switzerland had high level corridor connections (which is a design I like) so would need some kind of transition coach to provide access into single deck coaches.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think the UK excels in the growth of buddleia...

 

[johncrossley]

Apart from Luxembourg, Belgium probably has the best value single fares in an otherwise high cost of living country, certainly in western/northern Europe. Excluding the airport surcharge, their maximum single fare is 21.80 EUR and you can get 10 any distance singles for 84 EUR. Obviously Austria is now the best value for regular travellers.