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There are one or two threads touching on this but don't quite answer my questions, hence this new one.
In 1964, along this branch line there were two telephone circuits listed as M.xxxx and B.xxx The X's are numbers. There is also a second B circuit (different number) that connects from the junction signal box (eastern end) to B.xxx at the first station along the branch. Circuit B.xxx then continues to the other two stations and appears to continue onto the other junction signal box (western end). The M.xxxx circuit appears to run the whole length of the branch line.
Circuits B.xxx and M.xxxx were to be cut at the third station. The eastern junction box appears to have four other B circuits connecting to other things / places if that helps.
Would the B circuit be used for the block instruments in the signal boxes along the branch? and perhaps the M circuit was used for actual telephones? or perhaps the other way round? can we infer anything from these circuits / letter prefix?
It might help if you were to specify which branch line you are talking about. Different railway companies had different naming practices. Even knowing if it was a single or double track branch would help!
Double track lines need three separate circuits between each block post, for up line, down line and bell. Where a block post can switch out, the circuits either side are simply connected together.
Single track lines with an intermediate passing loop would have separate token sections either side of the passing station, requiring separate circuits if using electric token working. If the passing station could switch out, and long section working using electric token was used, this would need its own separate circuit right through. With electric token working, the bell uses the token circuit, so a separate bell circuit is not needed.
While it was also possible to run telephones through block circuits (I understand the RSCo even produced staff instruments which incorporated a telephone), I am not sure how widely that was done in Britain. In my experience, telephone and signalling circuits were kept separate.
There are also various different types of telephone circuits. Simple point-to-point telephones, where there is just one telephone each end of the circuit. Omnibus type circuits, where multiple telephones are connected onto the same circuit. Central Battery circuits, where multiple phones can call one central phone, but not each other. Dial phone circuits. Party lines. M might mean magneto and B might mean battery for example, to denote different types of ringing circuit.
Circuits can also be multiplexed, so that two physical wires can be used to carry three circuits, or electronically multiplexed so that one pair of wires can carry dozens of circuits. So M might indicate a multiplexed circuit.
Taking what you've written at face value, these are telephone, not telegraph, circuits, so they are not for block signalling. I'd guess they would be "omnibus" phone circuits, as also used by the early telephone (not railway) service. Just as in any land-line telephone, the circuit connects to the bell until the handset is lifted and is switched onto the circuit in place of the bell.
To use it you lift your handset, listen to see if it's in use, then send the bell code (with a key) for your desired destination. They then pick up and you can talk; others could listen in but aren't meant to.
So the obvious meaning of M and B for that kind circuit would be "main" and "branch" (line) - though not perhaps to be taken in an entirely literal sense. Is there any sign in the letters that stations were connected to these circuits, or to others or to a wider system?
I would also guess that other lineside circuits may have existed but not had letters about them if there was nothing to be said. So a block telegraph circuit, from one box to the next, could just be ripped out when one box was closed and the instruments removed.
On the Western, for example, telecoms kept records of both signalling and telecom circuits where they shared the pole route or the same cable. So if signalling needed an extra circuit, for example, we had to get the telecom records changed. I recall that we even had to get a cable number from telecoms if we wanted to lay our own cable, though in that case they weren't bothered about the circuit allocations if it was purely a signalling cable. So old telecom department drawings may include details of signalling circuits.
You may be right that M and B indicate main and branch, although that may mean main and branch circuits in electrical terms. A branch circuit being one that is teed off the main circuit, not necessarily one that goes down the branch line.
Since you needed to know the bell codes for all the other phones to use an omnibus circuit, there had to be a list by each phone. There were thousands of these things - called "telephone circuit card" or something similar - and quite a few survive and there are pictures online.
I've looked for one that's relevant by geography, date, or organisation, and the closest I can find is this one which is at least of BR era and even LMR. The format is copied from the one LMS used, and other regions would be a bit different. This picture was on the Facebook "Leeds New Line Appreciation Group".
It looks as if the circuit number, including its letter, had to be unique across the whole region. In that case B and M don't mean anything. Note how the codes appear to be very like Morse codes - made up of longs and shorts. That appears to be based on previous practice, perhaps even pre-grouping practice, and was very different elsewhere. So it might not be the same on ex-L&Y lines.
It looks as if the circuit number, including its letter, had to be unique across the whole region. In that case B and M don't mean anything. Note how the codes appear to be very like Morse codes - made up of longs and shorts. That appears to be based on previous practice, perhaps even pre-grouping practice, and was very different elsewhere. So it might not be the same on ex-L&Y lines. View attachment 208683
Just speculation, but might the Morse-like codes predate the use of telephones and have originated from omnibus telegraph circuits using "ting tong" instruments?
Just speculation, but might the Morse-like codes predate the use of telephones and have originated from omnibus telegraph circuits using "ting tong" instruments?
It might help if you were to specify which branch line you are talking about. Different railway companies had different naming practices. Even knowing if it was a single or double track branch would help!
Apologies! Most members on here know which line I'm talking about, but for clarification it's the Gt. Harwood loop line, 9 miles in length, double track and ran from Gt. Harwood Junction (Blackburn) to Rose Grove (Burnley) via the towns of Gt. Harwood and Padiham. Built by the L&Y in the 1870s, later run by the LMS and BR.
Taking what you've written at face value, these are telephone, not telegraph, circuits, so they are not for block signalling. I'd guess they would be "omnibus" phone circuits, as also used by the early telephone (not railway) service. Just as in any land-line telephone, the circuit connects to the bell until the handset is lifted and is switched onto the circuit in place of the bell.
To use it you lift your handset, listen to see if it's in use, then send the bell code (with a key) for your desired destination. They then pick up and you can talk; others could listen in but aren't meant to.
It looks as if the circuit number, including its letter, had to be unique across the whole region. In that case B and M don't mean anything. Note how the codes appear to be very like Morse codes - made up of longs and shorts. That appears to be based on previous practice, perhaps even pre-grouping practice, and was very different elsewhere. So it might not be the same on ex-L&Y lines.
I would also guess that other lineside circuits may have existed but not had letters about them if there was nothing to be said. So a block telegraph circuit, from one box to the next, could just be ripped out when one box was closed and the instruments removed.
And I think this was what happened here on the loop line, at some point the circuits were simply ripped out. As for the letter prefix to the circuit numbers, I guess we'll never know what, if anything they meant.
The second B circuit linked from Padiham to Rose Grove was to remain as Padiham's box was still operational, as was the section of line Padiham to Rose Grove.
With regard to the actual signal boxes that were to be removed are as follows - Gt. Harwood East & West, and Simonstone. I remember West box was still there in December 1967, the roof and chimney stuck out over the railway stone wall on Railway View, Harwood, both boxes were gone by May 1969.
Going back to the circuits, there is no more mention of them after this meeting (August 1964) to dispose of the Gt. Harwood section. One common representative throughout the five meetings (64-68) was from the D.S. & T.E. department / office as this came under their remit.
Think the bottom line to these circuits is I can't really take too much from the mention of them other than they were probably telephone circuits and that there were two of them along the branch line.
Since you needed to know the bell codes for all the other phones to use an omnibus circuit, there had to be a list by each phone. There were thousands of these things - called "telephone circuit card" or something similar - and quite a few survive and there are pictures online.
I've looked for one that's relevant by geography, date, or organisation, and the closest I can find is this one which is at least of BR era and even LMR. The format is copied from the one LMS used, and other regions would be a bit different. This picture was on the Facebook "Leeds New Line Appreciation Group".
It looks as if the circuit number, including its letter, had to be unique across the whole region. In that case B and M don't mean anything. Note how the codes appear to be very like Morse codes - made up of longs and shorts. That appears to be based on previous practice, perhaps even pre-grouping practice, and was very different elsewhere. So it might not be the same on ex-L&Y lines. View attachment 208683
Some of the omnibus systems had phones with two buttons, usually one black and one red. The black one was used for the normal code ringing. The red button was used only to contact the exchange, or control. When you pressed the black button, that would ring all the phones on the circuit (except the exchange/control). When you pressed the red button that would only ring the exchange/control phone, not every other phone on the circuit. In the above example, I suspect that is what is meant by the "Con. Key", one press on the red button to get Wakefield Control. The control office would likely have dozens of omnibus circuits connected to it, and so wouldn't want the bells sounding every time anyone made a call.
If you wanted to contact somewhere not on your omnibus circuit, you had to contact the exchange to get them to connect your omnibus circuit to the circuit the place you wanted to call was on. I suspect that in the example above, that is what the note about switch to circuit A147 might be about. However, in such cases, it was usual for the exchange to ring the code for the destination, and then switch the circuits together.
Alternatively, in some places, there was a switch that allowed the signalman himself to temporarily switch his phone onto a different circuit. Most signalboxes only had one omnibus phone, but junction boxes might have phones on different omnibus circuits.
In the example above, most of the phones on that circuit seem to be signalboxes. This suggests that there was likely to have been a separate circuit for calls between station offices, goods depots, etc. for commercial/traffic running purposes.
That's why they were called "Omnibus" phones - nothing to do with buses but translates from Latin as "for all".
Quite handy for listening in on other people's business, especially on "orders day" when the Relief Signalmen got their nstructions for next week, to make sure they didn't get something better than you did. Also good for a general natter on a Saturday afternoon, whether it be about races, football or the rule book.
Except that on the line you are talking about, most of the boxes only opened when required for shunting, so there weren't many people to use the circuits in later years.
When you pressed the button (or wound the generator), it rang every other phone on the circuit, not just the phone in the box you wanted to call. So if your phone started ringing, you had to listen carefully to the code being rung to see if the call was for you. Of course, every other signalman etc on the same circuit was doing the same. You can understand why it was unusual for a signalbox to have too many of these phones.
They weren't like dial phones, where you have your own unique number. Each omnibus circuit would have its own code list.
If you had two phones on separate omnibus circuits, you would likely have two different codes that you would need to be listening out for. Again, a reason why it was unusual for boxes to have too many of these phones.
Further to the previous poster, block circuits would not be ripped out if a signalbox were closed. If say box B was closed, the circuits A-B and B-C would be connected together to give a block circuit A-C. That might either be given a new number, or one of the old numbers.
The only time that block circuits would be ripped out is if a line closed, or for some reason ceased to be worked by block signalling (eg it became designated as a siding).
Likewise it is unlikely that an omnibus circuit would be ripped out just because one signalbox closed. It would only be removed (I suspect any telecom engineers on here are wincing at the term "ripped out"!) if most of the places served by that circuit were being abolished, and those remaining could be transferred to a different circuit.
Someone with more LM knowledge may be able to answer, but I suspect that they either represent a division or pre-grouping company (the LMS inherited equipment lists from various old companies, and would have needed to distinguish them), or a circuit type.
[snip]
If you had two phones on separate omnibus circuits, you would likely have two different codes that you would need to be listening out for. Again, a reason why it was unusual for boxes to have too many of these phones.
In my experience, the code was always the same for a given location on different circuits. It was just the same with multiple telegraph circuits.
If there were a lot of circuits to contend with, a "concentrator" (like a miniature telephone exchange) would be provided. I have seen these capable of up to a dozen circuits. Often they would also have local circuits, such as to the station staff and yards, combined into them too - and often the ability to use two handsets.
When I worked in a Freight Trains Office (ca. 1970) I sometimes had to contact a 'box on the Midland South of Wellingborough. These were all on a circuit phone with codes for each 'box. I clearly remember contacting them - and that it was a chore - but I could only have done this from a BR dial phone. I think I recollect that you dialled a group number and then when it rang out, you then dialled the 'box's individual code - but I might well be wrong.
My anecdote is only to illustrate that the individual codes must have been numeric, not long & short, because that was all that could be sent.
If there were a lot of circuits to contend with, a "concentrator" (like a miniature telephone exchange) would be provided. I have seen these capable of up to a dozen circuits. Often they would also have local circuits, such as to the station staff and yards, combined into them too - and often the ability to use two handsets.
The ones I recall had a three position switch for each circuit. Each switch was normally in the centre position, and you could push it up or down to connect to the relevant handset. In some cases, you could connect two circuits together by operating the switches for both circuits. There was one common bell, but each switch had a light to show which circuit was calling. On hearing the bell, you would look to see which light was lit and throw the relevant switch.
The problem with putting lots of omnibus circuits on such concentrators was that codes being rung on the different circuits could clash. I think in such cases the place with the concentrator was usually the place rung by the red button on the other omnibus phones.
However, back in the days when these omnibus phones were installed, it was rare for signallers to use the phone. In some of the more remote places, you might go a complete shift without ever making or receiving a single call.
Place to place phone circuits were also used for sending bell codes. For example, where an occupation crossing or ground frame was released from a signalbox, there would often be a direct circuit between the signalbox and the keeper. However, the phone would mainly be used for sending bell codes, with a list of standard codes for things like taking and giving up the release - the phone would only rarely be used for voice messages (one of the codes would be for "answer phone").
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
When I worked in a Freight Trains Office (ca. 1970) I sometimes had to contact a 'box on the Midland South of Wellingborough. These were all on a circuit phone with codes for each 'box. I clearly remember contacting them - and that it was a chore - but I could only have done this from a BR dial phone. I think I recollect that you dialled a group number and then when it rang out, you then dialled the 'box's individual code - but I might well be wrong.
My anecdote is only to illustrate that the individual codes must have been numeric, not long & short, because that was all that could be sent.
There was a more sophisticated type of omnibus circuit that used dial phones. Rather than pressing a button to send a code, you dialled a number. Each phone on the circuit had an electromechanical counter that counted the number of pulses on the line, and if it matched, it rang the bell. That way only the phone being called, rang. I suppose it would have been possible for a standard auto phone to dial into such a circuit, but I personally never came across this.
There was also a version of this type of omnibus circuit used for SPTs. The signaller could dial the relevant SPT, but the individual SPTs only had a button to call the signalbox. The other SPTs on the omnibus circuit would automatically be locked out, so that another driver couldn't overhear what was being said. I understand that the GPO called these "secret circuits" (unlike party lines, where you could overhear what another caller was saying).
Nowadays we are so used to ETD and STD, but I can still recall the days before you could dial any phone anywhere. On the GPO, if you wanted to call a phone not on your local exchange group, you almost always had to get the operator to make the call for you. In some cases, there were special local codes for dialling a nearby exchange, but you needed to know that such codes existed, or look in the telephone directory to see if one existed for where you wanted to call.
On the Southern Region, we had a regional telephone directory. At the front, was a big lookup table, so that if you wanted to dial from say Croydon to a number on the Guildford exchange, you would look down the side for Croydon, and then across for Guildford, to find the relevant code. There was little to no standardisation, so the code for dialling a Guildford number could be very different depending on where you were dialling from. And like the GPO, there were also various local interconnectors, with their own local codes. I recall there were even codes for dialling onto the LT system and some of the other regional auto phone systems, but not much use unless you knew the number you wanted. No directory enquiries on BR.
IIRC BR dial phones used 0xx xxxx to direct dial extensions at various locations. There were particular issues with the BTH hotels, all of which had GPO lines (apart from the Royal Station in Hull), but only those establishments adjacent to stations were connected to the BR network. Calls from HQ could only be dialled directly to BR numbers, so some hotels could only be reached through the intervention of a switchboard operator.
When I worked in a Freight Trains Office (ca. 1970) I sometimes had to contact a 'box on the Midland South of Wellingborough. These were all on a circuit phone with codes for each 'box. I clearly remember contacting them - and that it was a chore - but I could only have done this from a BR dial phone. I think I recollect that you dialled a group number and then when it rang out, you then dialled the 'box's individual code - but I might well be wrong.
My anecdote is only to illustrate that the individual codes must have been numeric, not long & short, because that was all that could be sent.
I think you are describing what I knew as a "dial selector" phone, used by Control and the like. At the receiving end, you could hear ticker ticker ticker" as the selector went through its range, and if you were being called, that would be followed by a long single ring.
Although these were communal phones, they were not omnibus phones as such. The numbers dialled simply selected the location concerned, the recipient would know nothing of this.
The point about the limited general need for a voice call between wayside signalboxes is very relevant. Obviously most of the ‘business’ was done with the block bells and instruments or some types of train describer.
Among more specific uses would be to flesh out a Stop And Examine bell code, such as mentioning an open door, shifted load or signs of smoke. Another would be when an intermediate box was going to switch out - just to explain that trains would not be accepted while the long section was being established.
The point about the limited general need for a voice call between wayside signalboxes is very relevant. Obviously most of the ‘business’ was done with the block bells and instruments or some types of train describer.
Among more specific uses would be to flesh out a Stop And Examine bell code, such as mentioning an open door, shifted load or signs of smoke. Another would be when an intermediate box was going to switch out - just to explain that trains would not be accepted while the long section was being established.
Some lines didn't orignally have telephones - the High Barnet branch of the GNR was so right up to closure for electrification around WW2, having to communicate by single-needle telegraph. Other lines might only have "block phones" - a direct line to adjacent boxes over the bell wires of the block signalling - a very common feature of the Midland Railway. Omnibus phones were by no means universally provided, extra wires on the poles were deemed too expensive in early days.
That was after ETD (the railway equivalent of STD) had been rolled out. Before that, the codes for dialling from one exchange to another were a hotch potch of local connections.
There were particular issues with the BTH hotels, all of which had GPO lines (apart from the Royal Station in Hull), but only those establishments adjacent to stations were connected to the BR network. Calls from HQ could only be dialled directly to BR numbers, so some hotels could only be reached through the intervention of a switchboard operator.
There were issues when parts of BR were privatised. BR's telecom licence prohibited it being used by third parties to bypass BT for long distance calls. So when BREL was privatised for example, it was no longer permitted for someone in BREL Derby to call someone in BREL Crewe via the BR system, as BREL were no longer part of BR. However, it was okay for someone working in a BR office in Derby to call BREL Crewe. So BREL phones were renumbered into their own separate exchange numbers, which didn't allow calling between sites. The same thing happened when the part of BR I worked for was privatised, with the result that we soon gave up using the BR phone system.
There were places not immediately adjacent to the railway connected to the BR network. Southern House in Croydon springs to mind. Sometimes they were connected by cables laid along abandoned routes, such as Main Offices in York. The old Management Training school in Derby (later BR's Railway Engineering School) was connected by a cable laid along the long-abandoned route of the old Derby canal.
The ones I recall had a three position switch for each circuit. Each switch was normally in the centre position, and you could push it up or down to connect to the relevant handset. In some cases, you could connect two circuits together by operating the switches for both circuits. There was one common bell, but each switch had a light to show which circuit was calling. On hearing the bell, you would look to see which light was lit and throw the relevant switch.
The problem with putting lots of omnibus circuits on such concentrators was that codes being rung on the different circuits could clash. I think in such cases the place with the concentrator was usually the place rung by the red button on the other omnibus phones.
However, back in the days when these omnibus phones were installed, it was rare for signallers to use the phone. In some of the more remote places, you might go a complete shift without ever making or receiving a single call.
Place to place phone circuits were also used for sending bell codes. For example, where an occupation crossing or ground frame was released from a signalbox, there would often be a direct circuit between the signalbox and the keeper. However, the phone would mainly be used for sending bell codes, with a list of standard codes for things like taking and giving up the release - the phone would only rarely be used for voice messages (one of the codes would be for "answer phone").
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
There was a more sophisticated type of omnibus circuit that used dial phones. Rather than pressing a button to send a code, you dialled a number. Each phone on the circuit had an electromechanical counter that counted the number of pulses on the line, and if it matched, it rang the bell. That way only the phone being called, rang. I suppose it would have been possible for a standard auto phone to dial into such a circuit, but I personally never came across this.
There was also a version of this type of omnibus circuit used for SPTs. The signaller could dial the relevant SPT, but the individual SPTs only had a button to call the signalbox. The other SPTs on the omnibus circuit would automatically be locked out, so that another driver couldn't overhear what was being said. I understand that the GPO called these "secret circuits" (unlike party lines, where you could overhear what another caller was saying).
Nowadays we are so used to ETD and STD, but I can still recall the days before you could dial any phone anywhere. On the GPO, if you wanted to call a phone not on your local exchange group, you almost always had to get the operator to make the call for you. In some cases, there were special local codes for dialling a nearby exchange, but you needed to know that such codes existed, or look in the telephone directory to see if one existed for where you wanted to call.
On the Southern Region, we had a regional telephone directory. At the front, was a big lookup table, so that if you wanted to dial from say Croydon to a number on the Guildford exchange, you would look down the side for Croydon, and then across for Guildford, to find the relevant code. There was little to no standardisation, so the code for dialling a Guildford number could be very different depending on where you were dialling from. And like the GPO, there were also various local interconnectors, with their own local codes. I recall there were even codes for dialling onto the LT system and some of the other regional auto phone systems, but not much use unless you knew the number you wanted. No directory enquiries on BR.
Tanks for the reply, and I apologise for not replying sooner.
I might have been confused about the location as I also occasionally worked in Euston Control (as a relief FRS* Distributer) which might have been where I encountered it.
As an aside, I was a shy quiet and nervous young man in those days - I guess we all were when young - and I was convinced that every other box on the omnibus circuit would be listening and ready to subject me to ridicule if I put a foot wrong.
Because of the recruitment ban which had just been lifted, almost all my colleagues were aged 50 or over, and spent a lot of time passing derogatory remarks about 'those b----y youngsters', always loudly and in earshot by design. I was always walking on eggshells and had to figure almost everything out myself. But now I talk too much in conversation , according to my 'Style Advisor/confidante'...
*FRS = Freight rolling stock - when the arrangement of empty wagons for loading, provision of brake vans etc was all done manually pre TOPS.
There were places not immediately adjacent to the railway connected to the BR network. Southern House in Croydon springs to mind. Sometimes they were connected by cables laid along abandoned routes, such as Main Offices in York. The old Management Training school in Derby (later BR's Railway Engineering School) was connected by a cable laid along the long-abandoned route of the old Derby canal.
Thinking about this further, the old Watford training school (management and civils) was a long way from any railway line. However, the Grand Union ran through the grounds, so I wonder if it was likewise connected by a cable run along the canal? Darlington Hall school was also a long way from anywhere.
For what its worth, concentrators with phones connected on individual circuits are still in use. Most signalboxes have them for contact directly between your adjacent boxes and for any signal post/points/level crossing telephones. Simply lift your handset, press the required button and wait for an answer, or if its ringing, lift the handset and press the button that's flashing at you to answer.
Larger signalling centres and control have electronic touch screen style concentrators, they can have numbers added to them by staff for convenience purposes. I'm pretty sure my mobile is still in the concentrator for my region's route control manager
There's also what I call the bat phones, simple "lift and wait for the other end to answer" phones covering everything from an emergency telephone to a quicker way of speaking to a station announcer from the controlling signalbox.
Boxes also have at least one conventional landline phone, most of mine have two for reasons that have never been explained to me. My theory is one was previously the BR internal line and the other a GPO/BT line. The GSMR can also dial out onto the BT network if need be.
Thinking about this further, the old Watford training school (management and civils) was a long way from any railway line. However, the Grand Union ran through the grounds, so I wonder if it was likewise connected by a cable run along the canal? Darlington Hall school was also a long way from anywhere.
I attended The Grove once (not that I was ever high grade management!) and it had a great sense of isolation. Perhaps this was deliberate to focus attention on the course.
I'm reasonably sure that it had no railway phone lines. I think I recall that those managers on my course who thought that their domain couldn't possibly carry on without their constant monitoring and advice were very frustrated at being incommunicado. But, as the saying goes 'and the railway carried on'.
I attended The Grove once (not that I was ever high grade management!) and it had a great sense of isolation. Perhaps this was deliberate to focus attention on the course.
I'm reasonably sure that it had no railway phone lines. I think I recall that those managers on my course who thought that their domain couldn't possibly carry on without their constant monitoring and advice were very frustrated at being incommunicado. But, as the saying goes 'and the railway carried on'.
That's true; but at one stage in its life it was the home of Fanny and Johnny Craddock.
I had previously assumed that that was after its wartime use, so all the phone connections would have been removed.. On looking up their dates of birth (190x) , they could well have lived there before the war, and passed it to the LMS.
That's true; but at one stage in its life it was the home of Fanny and Johnny Craddock.
I had previously assumed that that was after its wartime use, so all the phone connections would have been removed.. On looking up their dates of birth (190x) , they could well have lived there before the war, and passed it to the LMS.
As part of the LMS 'Project X' relocation of it's HQ from Euston to The Grove, a telegraph office and telephone exchange was installed with direct connections to the Railway Executive's underground HQ in Down Street, main railway locations and various ministries. The site of the telephone exchange is now a substation and HVAC plant room for the hotel (which potentially reused conduits built to carry cables into the house). It is on the side of the site closest to the River Gade/Grand Union Canal, so the cables to connect it could have been run up the canal.
That's true; but at one stage in its life it was the home of Fanny and Johnny Craddock.
I had previously assumed that that was after its wartime use, so all the phone connections would have been removed.. On looking up their dates of birth (190x) , they could well have lived there before the war, and passed it to the LMS.
The Cradocks lived in The Dower House on the outskirts of the The Grove estate, not in the main house itself. They only moved there in 1968 when their TV career was just past it's peak (with their programmes being filmed in the kitchen there), and moved out in 1975. Between 1958 and 1968 they lived on Shooters Hill Rd in Blackheath.
The LMS did also buy Grove Mill House, the large property next to the mill across the road from The Dower House, to use as offices
I attended The Grove once (not that I was ever high grade management!) and it had a great sense of isolation. Perhaps this was deliberate to focus attention on the course.
I'm reasonably sure that it had no railway phone lines. I think I recall that those managers on my course who thought that their domain couldn't possibly carry on without their constant monitoring and advice were very frustrated at being incommunicado. But, as the saying goes 'and the railway carried on'.
I attended The Grove a number of times, and I am fairly certain that the staff in both the main building and the CCE annex had railway phones. Railway phones weren't provided for students use, in any of the railway schools that I ever attended. In the era before mobile phones, the schools generally had a couple of coin box pay phones for students to use.
I attended The Grove a number of times, and I am fairly certain that the staff in both the main building and the CCE annex had railway phones. Railway phones weren't provided for students use, in any of the railway schools that I ever attended. In the era before mobile phones, the schools generally had a couple of coin box pay phones for students to use.
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