Railway staff talking over or about disabled people

[londontransit]

For those like me it is most dispiriting when rail staff (as indeed many other transport staff and others do) is talk about me/discuss me/negate me when I have absolutely no means of defending/clarifying/refuting what they are saying. I mean I cant even hear or understand what people are saying but I can tell from their expressions its not good, and because I have communication problems I cannot intervene. Often what it means is a fixed notion of disabled people like me is formulated and perpetuated.

Remember the poster where people are talking about a disabled person in a lift and they're not even involving the person in question? Well its like that big time! Its more than big time in fact!

Its very stultifying when transport staff formulate such aspirations because, well we do not/are not able to respond likewise and place the other viewpoint or words of refutation that are so critical in terms of awareness.

Despite having a card detailing my disabilities and a letter from the transport authority, staff invariably do not want to look at these (because they have already developed prior prejudices) or consider that there could be other levels of disability which requires a totally different approach to the training they get.

Sometimes I wonder whether staff really do get any training. I mean some of us get called troublemakers and that especially when we are not doing anything out of the norm but just wanting to be respected/fairly treated like others are.

I had this yet again today thanks to the guys at Crossrail. I suppose its my fault that I cannot defend myself properly or effectively even though I have letters, cards (on the end of a lanyard), which staff don't want to look at.

 

[Flying Snail]

That is little more than just a generalized rant with a liberal sprinkling of buzzwords and emotional manipulation.

You haven't explained at all what actual issue/s you are having.

Despite the fact you admit you haven't heard what they have said you are happy to accuse staff of saying negative things about you and of course throwing in the obligatory discrimination accusation as well. You do understand that making unfounded allegations against someone is a serious matter.

 

[SynthD]

This seems like anxiety. Thinking that others are talking about you is a common part of anxiety.

 

[londontransit]

That is little more than just a generalized rant with a liberal sprinkling of buzzwords and emotional manipulation.

You haven't explained at all what actual issue/s you are having.

Despite the fact you admit you haven't heard what they have said you are happy to accuse staff of saying negative things about you and of course throwing in the obligatory discrimination accusation as well. You do understand that making unfounded allegations against someone is a serious matter.

Ooooohh I agree fully!

The problem is you wouldn't understand so its difficult to explain fully.

AND when rail staff make unfounded issues about me, its absolutely okay, because they can speak, hear communicate. I cant.

So I expect those like us need to expect more of the same stuff. That is great isnt it! No need to continue this thread. Its difficult enough for me as it is without any further ado...

I waste my time on here.

 

[Magdalia]

This is an account of a bad experience where the OP feels that they have not been treated with dignity and respect.

To describe it as a rant and emotional manipulation is also not treating the OP with dignity and respect, instead perpetuating the fixed notions of disabled people that they find so upsetting.

No wonder the OP feels that they have wasted their time.

 

[zwk500]

That is little more than just a generalized rant with a liberal sprinkling of buzzwords and emotional manipulation.

This part of the response is not helpful.

@RedRoverTicket if you have a specific incident in mind or are experiencing repeated incidents at specific locations please, please report it to the station management.

Network Rail staff have recently had training to address some of the issues you've brought up, so feedback should be taken very seriously. I dont know if TOC, Crossrail or TfL staff have had the same training.

 

[theking]

If you can't hear or understand and communicate how do you know they are being derogatory to you.

 

[Magdalia]

If you can't hear or understand and communicate how do you know they are being derogatory to you.

Lip reading and body language to start with.

 

[theking]

Lip reading and body language to start with.

You need to understand to lip read.

Also body language doesn't have to be projected to the op the staff member may be frustrated with the equipment or information they have which doesn't mean they're disrespecting the op

 

[Flying Snail]

This is an account of a bad experience where the OP feels that they have not been treated with dignity and respect.

To describe it as a rant and emotional manipulation is also not treating the OP with dignity and respect, instead perpetuating the fixed notions of disabled people that they find so upsetting.

No wonder the OP feels that they have wasted their time.

It is so far not an account of anything, it contains no actual facts about any identifiable issue other than a vague allegation of something supposedly said that the OP admitted he did not hear.

Publicly accusing rail staff of mistreating him and discriminatory behaviour without any evidence is not treating them with dignity or respect.

Throwing out the disability card is not a free pass to be above any legitimate criticism.

The OP has posted many detailed posts on various topics on these forums so he is clearly capable of communicating facts and figures here when he wants to.

If he chooses to describe an actual event or events that he feels he was treated badly in then he can and should get a fair hearing but there is no reason why a vague and admittedly unfounded allegation (against people that are not here to defend themselves) should just be accepted uncritically.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2022 ==

Lip reading and body language to start with.

OP mentions nothing about lip reading so you have invented that one yourself.

Body language is not evidence that anyone said anything.

 

[Starmill]

That is little more than just a generalized rant with a liberal sprinkling of buzzwords and emotional manipulation.

What an unhelpful contribution

If you couldn't find a useful way to respond you were free to choose to ignore the post.

 

[Wolfie]

Ooooohh I agree fully!

The problem is you wouldn't understand so its difficult to explain fully.

AND when rail staff make unfounded issues about me, its absolutely okay, because they can speak, hear communicate. I cant.

So I expect those like us need to expect more of the same stuff. That is great isnt it! No need to continue this thread. Its difficult enough for me as it is without any further ado...

I waste my time on here.

Could you please explain exactly what happened to cause you inconvenience and/or upset. That would allow others to properly engage with you and comment in an informed manner. Thanks in advance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2022 ==

What an unhelpful contribution

If you couldn't find a useful way to respond you were free to choose to ignore the post.

Agreed. It actually rather proves @RedRoverTicket's point.

 

[randyrippley]

...................I had this yet again today thanks to the guys at Crossrail.....................

Considering that Crossrail isn't ready for passengers this comment is difficult to understand

 

[Wolfie]

Considering that Crossrail isn't ready for passengers this comment is difficult to understand

We can speculate that TfL rail is what is meant but fair comment.

 

[philthetube]

When staff are assisting disabled passengers it is necessary to talk about them, to make arrangements for assistance at the other end of the journey, it is useful for the driver to know, in case things go wrong, and staff may well have to ask others to assist in passing on information, anyone mishearing conversations could easily get the wrong impression about what is said.

People who are deaf are liable to make assumptions about what is said in the same way that people who do not speak a language assume that people using that language, unfortunately that is human nature.

 

[O L Leigh]

Oh dear. I fear that some of the responses do rather bear out what the OP says. I don't think that he necessarily needs to quote chapter and verse regarding a specific incident just to satisfy those who want to pick holes in his account.

Railway staff are certainly given disability awareness training but nothing more specific. The problem is that the range of disabilities is so wide that trying to meet that need would be difficult. Certainly where a disability affects communication it can make it very difficult to know precisely what is needed. I remember trying to help a chap with cerebral palsy get off the train after his electric wheelchair malfunctioned. While the process of resetting the motors was itself quite easy it took a long time for me to understand precisely what was wrong with the chair and what needed to be done. This was only achievable by taking plenty of time and patience.

And this is perhaps where the problems come in. The railway is very time sensitive and rail staff are almost always busy trying to get things done in such a way as to ensure punctuality and minimise delay. Dealing with disabled passengers can simply become a matter of getting them on/off trains swiftly. In that respect I can understand why the OP has these feelings when his experiences make him feel more like an item of recalcitrant luggage that needs to be loaded rather than as a person.

I have mixed feelings about the disabled assistance offered because I feel that it really shouldn't be necessary for folk with needs to have to phone up and book their travel, but I do understand that it provides a useful service that does help to improve the accessibility of the network.

 

[GB]

Could you please explain exactly what happened to cause you inconvenience and/or upset. That would allow others to properly engage with you and comment in an informed manner. Thanks in advance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2022 ==


Agreed. It actually rather proves @RedRoverTicket's point.

A post on here doesn't prove or disprove anything. But by the Op's own words they cannot hear or understand what is apparently being said but instead relying on their own interpretations of expressions. Unpopular opinion but that is not really enough to be publicly calling out anyone imo.

 

[Magdalia]

OP mentions nothing about lip reading so you have invented that one yourself.

Body language is not evidence that anyone said anything.

Body language is a huge component of communication, it is not an invention. Tone of voice is also important, and both of these convey much more than the actual words. That applies in all interactions, not just those with disabled people.

People with disabilities, who struggle with the words, become much more attuned to body language, if they can see it, and tone of voice, if they can hear it.

This is basic stuff that should be in any diversity training, including helping disabled people on the railway.

 

[skyhigh]

Body language is a huge component of communication, it is not an invention. Tone of voice is also important, and both of these convey much more than the actual words. That applies in all interactions, not just those with disabled people.

People with disabilities, who struggle with the words, become much more attuned to body language, if they can see it, and tone of voice, if they can hear it.

This is basic stuff that should be in any diversity training, including helping disabled people on the railway.

To be fair the OP does say:

I mean I cant even hear or understand what people are saying

Which suggests they can't lip read.

 

[LCC106]

I would urge the OP to contact station management and the TOC with a detailed account of what you have experienced, how it has made you feel and how you feel you could be treated in a better manner. It may well be a training issue, it may be that staff were, as mentioned above, discussing any assistance you may need during or at the other end of your journey and it may be that staff do not feel the need to read your documentation but you would like them to. In any case, u less you make them aware of the issue they cannot do anything about it.

 

[Wolfie]

A post on here doesn't prove or disprove anything. But by the Op's own words they cannot hear or understand what is apparently being said but instead relying on their own interpretations of expressions. Unpopular opinion but that is not really enough to be publicly calling out anyone imo.

Calling out one or more individuals l absolutely agree. Calling out the system based in this and other experience would be fair enough in my view. Staff need, and l know that it's far from easy, to understand how their actions, no matter how innocuous, can potentially make disabled people feel.

 

[Magdalia]

To be fair the OP does say:

Which suggests they can't lip read.

This is a typical example of able bodied people making assumptions about disabled people. Some then talk over them because they think that the disabled person cannot understand. That assumption is disrespectful. Understanding is a spectrum, not binary.

 

[SynthD]

People with disabilities, who struggle with the words, become much more attuned to body language, if they can see it, and tone of voice, if they can hear it.

Being attuned to it doesn't mean you read it correctly. I don't think training can accommodate a situation where nothing is known about the conversation.

 

[seagull]

This is a typical example of able bodied people making assumptions about disabled people. Some then talk over them because they think that the disabled person cannot understand. That assumption is disrespectful. Understanding is a spectrum, not binary.

Well you have just made an assumption that @skyhigh is able bodied, as well as generalised about able bodied people making assumptions. Stones and greenhouses, and all that.

Besides which:

I mean I cant even hear or understand what people are saying but I can tell from their expressions its not good

makes it fairly clear that the OP is in the unenviable position of having to only rely on expression to understand (and therefore very likely not lip read).

Being talked about or "down to" is quite a common problem for those with disabilities and one which most employees in probably most industries are not taught anything much about other than the mere basics. But then it's not entirely surprising when you consider that even full-time parents or partners of those with disabilities can take quite a while to really deal with and cope with it properly. A very steep learning curve in some instances is required.

 

[Haywain]

The problem is you wouldn't understand so its difficult to explain fully.

We have no chance of understanding without an explanation being offered. And if you feel this is the case - that we won't understand - why would the card you carry make a significant difference to the staff at the station?

 

[theking]

Not sure why people should "ignore the thread" or "not post" if they're not in die hard support of the op.

Just because he is disabled doesn't mean he gets to post allegations tarnishing a whole sector of the workforce with no evidence. Or explanation, if an able bodied person did this they would get called out immediately and rightly so.

 

[Magdalia]

Well you have just made an assumption that @skyhigh is able bodied

That's a fair point!

as well as generalised about able bodied people making assumptions

But I didn't generalise, I said "some" not "all".

makes it fairly clear that the OP is in the unenviable position of having to only rely on expression to understand (and therefore very likely not lip read).

My original reference to lip reading was an example, I wasn't making any assumption that it applied in this case. But nobody should assume that the OP cannot lip read. And even if the OP cannot lip read, that would be no excuse if they were being talked about as if they weren't there.

 

[Turtle]

It is so far not an account of anything, it contains no actual facts about any identifiable issue other than a vague allegation of something supposedly said that the OP admitted he did not hear.

Publicly accusing rail staff of mistreating him and discriminatory behaviour without any evidence is not treating them with dignity or respect.

Throwing out the disability card is not a free pass to be above any legitimate criticism.

The OP has posted many detailed posts on various topics on these forums so he is clearly capable of communicating facts and figures here when he wants to.

If he chooses to describe an actual event or events that he feels he was treated badly in then he can and should get a fair hearing but there is no reason why a vague and admittedly unfounded allegation (against people that are not here to defend themselves) should just be accepted uncritically.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2022 ==



OP mentions nothing about lip reading so you have invented that one yourself.

Body language is not evidence that anyone said anything.

I suspect your attitude is part of the OP's problem.

 

[the sniper]

Surely it's just like being in a country where you don't speak the language, people probably aren't talking about you. Without us even knowing the basic grounds for the OPs interpretation of what they've perceived the staff are thinking/saying about them, I'm not sure what is supposed to be said here?

 

[Cowley]

I think for now we’ll close this and if @RedRoverTicket could contact one of us either via pm or via the report function with some more details we’ll look at reopening it.
Thanks everyone.