Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Need2]

A great example of how the world is changing and there just needs to be sensible business decisions made about where there is really a need for ticket office or where staff out on platforms to assist would serve customers better and be a better use of resiurces.

I can’t see the point of ticket offices or ticket machines if stations are unmanned, have no gate lines and no one to check tickets!

 

[SJN]

I don't see what having someone wandering about with a ticket machine will offer. At least with an open ticket office you know where to go to find someone.

This sounds like the sort of half baked idea that the DfT is fond of wasting its time on, when it should be concentrating on getting the trains running.

At my local ticket office, the staff are responsible for cleaning the office and litter picking on platforms, gritting platforms when needed, assisting disabled passengers on and off trains, selling tickets and answering queries. The do have a windowed booth to sit in but are very often out of it deal with various issues. It’s not like they sit there all day doing nothing as portrayed.

 

[yorksrob]

At my local ticket office, the staff are responsible for cleaning the office and litter picking on platforms, gritting platforms when needed, assisting disabled passengers on and off trains, selling tickets and answering queries. The do have a windowed booth to sit in but are very often out of it deal with various issues. It’s not like they sit there all day doing nothing as portrayed.

Quite.

It's a pointless non-idea dreamt up by the DfT.

 

[M&NEJ]

A great example of how the world is changing and there just needs to be sensible business decisions made about where there is really a need for ticket office or where staff out on platforms to assist would serve customers better and be a better use of resiurces.

Where there is a machine in a supermarket there is also a member of staff to help with the machine. Where there are ticket barriers on the railway there is also a member of staff to help if there are difficulties. On London Underground (last time I went) there were staff available near ticket machines. In my view, the main line railway needs to provide staff wherever there are ticket machines, or else allow free purchase of tickets on the train, and stop putting difficulties in the way of customers purchasing tickets. Half the time the machines don't work for me; yet ticket offices always succeed!

 

[91108]

A pointless non-idea dreamt up by the DfT that Shapps seems determined to achieve…

 

[yorksrob]

A pointless non-idea dreamt up by the DfT that Shapps seems determined to achieve…

He's another one who needs to concentrate on getting the trains running.

 

[Moonshot]

I imagine that they don't accept it has changed.

My view is here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railway-industrial-disputes-mk2.234228/page-45#post-5772674 that station staff can give better customer service away from a ticket office counter desk but I appreciate it might not suit all current ticket office staff.

At my depot, there is a booking office. It's been in decline like everywhere else. Some of the staff are hoping for a VS package.

 

[Fokx]

He's another one who needs to concentrate on getting the trains running.

Another one?

His literally THE one.

 

[Need2]

Another one?

His literally THE one.

Him and Groves make my skin crawl.
I bet both were horrible little cretins at school.

 

[Moonshot]

A pointless non-idea dreamt up by the DfT that Shapps seems determined to achieve…

Maybe.....but by the time of the next general election, some of the current booking offices will have gone. Staff will have either been redeployed or taken a VS package

 

[Killingworth]

At my depot, there is a booking office. It's been in decline like everywhere else. Some of the staff are hoping for a VS package.

There are very many stations that have been unmanned for decades, some with 4 or more trains stopping per hour and serving in excess of 250k passenger each year. In recent years I've seen a variety of stations used by less than 250k passengers a year, some with very few trains a day, yet still manned. Clearly one size doesn't fit all. Many of those little (some quite big architecturally) stations are among the best kept on the railway.

All the stations on my line have been unmanned for 50 years, perhaps 2 tph but mostly under 100k users pa, and now have TVMs. More are using apps. The world is moving on. The life goes out of stations without a human presence, but how much does that cost? It's an issue the railway has been facing since at least the 1950s and there are no right answers for all. Commercially I'd have to close a lot of ticket offices if it was only ticket revenue that decided it. But many I wouldn't because there are a lot of exceptional local situations.

In this dispute existing booking office staff employment must be protected even if their current specific roles may not.

 

[yorksrob]

There are very many stations that have been unmanned for decades, some with 4 or more trains stopping per hour and serving in excess of 250k passenger each year. In recent years I've seen a variety of stations used by less than 250k passengers a year, some with very few trains a day, yet still manned. Clearly one size doesn't fit all. Many of those little (some quite big architecturally) stations are among the best kept on the railway.

All the stations on my line have been unmanned for 50 years, perhaps 2 tph but mostly under 100k users pa, and now have TVMs. More are using apps. The world is moving on. The life goes out of stations without a human presence, but how much does that cost? It's an issue the railway has been facing since at least the 1950s and there are no right answers for all. Commercially I'd have to close a lot of ticket offices if it was only ticket revenue that decided it. But many I wouldn't because there are a lot of exceptional local situations.

In this dispute existing booking office staff employment must be protected even if their current specific roles may not.

Which is all the more reason why you need a proper ticket office at somewhere like Sheffield IMO.

 

[Moonshot]

There are very many stations that have been unmanned for decades, some with 4 or more trains stopping per hour and serving in excess of 250k passenger each year. In recent years I've seen a variety of stations used by less than 250k passengers a year, some with very few trains a day, yet still manned. Clearly one size doesn't fit all. Many of those little (some quite big architecturally) stations are among the best kept on the railway.

All the stations on my line have been unmanned for 50 years, perhaps 2 tph but mostly under 100k users pa, and now have TVMs. More are using apps. The world is moving on. The life goes out of stations without a human presence, but how much does that cost? It's an issue the railway has been facing since at least the 1950s and there are no right answers for all. Commercially I'd have to close a lot of ticket offices if it was only ticket revenue that decided it. But many I wouldn't because there are a lot of exceptional local situations.

In this dispute existing booking office staff employment must be protected even if their current specific roles may not.

I can't remember the last time anyone actually got made redundant because there specific roles were delisted. Railways have been very good at re deploying staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

Which is all the more reason why you need a proper ticket office at somewhere like Sheffield IMO.

Which may well be the case anyway. Imo despite all the rhetoric, I still think there will be offices at major stations.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't remember the last time anyone actually got made redundant because there specific roles were delisted. Railways have been very good at re deploying staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==


Which may well be the case anyway. Imo despite all the rhetoric, I still think there will be offices at major stations.

I certainly hope not.

 

[Moonshot]

I certainly hope not.

On my own patch , I can think of at least 2 stations which have lost their offices in the last couple of years. It's not as if its a brand new initiative. Interestingly the office at Burscough Bridge looks like it's about to be repurposed into something else judging by the building work going on. The one at Clitheroe is still empty however.

 

[Horizon22]

No it’s not!
Your company and many others may choose to give very limited information about an ex-employee but in reality they can say exactly what they like as long as it’s true.

The chance of them to be challenged though on what is “true” though is a minefield they’d much rather ignore and is definitely not advice HR would give any referee.

Plus the new company only normally wants to check their new employee isn’t completely making their previous employment up; an interview confirms their suitability for the role and references often are only chased weeks or months after an employee starts from my experience.

 

[TUC]

A pointless non-idea dreamt up by the DfT that Shapps seems determined to achieve…

Some of these comments seem oddly focused as if lots of stations have ticket offices and not having one is unusual. I do wonder if they are made by South Easterners with a lack of a UK-wide perspective.

 

[Killingworth]

Which is all the more reason why you need a proper ticket office at somewhere like Sheffield IMO.

I suspect it will be a long time before a station with 10 million passengers in 2019-20 loses a manned ticket and inquiries office. I gather assurances are being given that Rotherham and Meadowhall aren't likely to go any time soon either, but that may ultimately be down to local government. However redeploying some of the current staff onto concourses and platforms for at least part of their days may be a more effective use of resources.

 

[43066]

But the public do pay money for their train fares & their taxes. So you know, they are always going to have their say one way or another....

Well that’s fine, as a tax payer and member of the public I want my say on their earnings, too. It’s only fair.

They can also have their by not using the railways. Just saying like.

But they do use it. Passenger numbers are already approaching pre Covid levels. Despite our best efforts we can’t seem to get rid of them! .

Genuine question (and no hidden agenda!) - do train crew contracts say, effectively “you will work your diagrams exactly as specified”, or do they effectively say “you will do the work required within your rostered times”

The general understanding is you’ll work to what’s in your diagram and are entitled to refuse to do anything not on it. Generally, in the example of being asked to split a train, I’ll agree to do it to help out. If goodwill is lost things can be made very, very difficult indeed.

There is no excuse for being rude back to passengers, no matter who rude they are to you.

*wrong answer buzzer*.

If people are rude to me I’m generally rude back. Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your mental image of how railway staff are supposed to tug our forelocks and bow and scrape. I can assure you that it won’t be changing .

 

[class 9]

The press keep quoting the position with NR staff as if it was the position with the whole industry. It isn’t.

TOC staff have not had a formal % offer. There was rumour of certain figures earlier on but nothing concrete. The TOCs, under their contracts with the DfT, have to obtain a mandate from the DfT to offer anything and any deal is subject to their approval.

So far the TOC “negotiations” seem to be (roughly) on the lines of “agree to the productivity changes and we can give you a figure”. Unsurprisingly, they aren’t going well.

What gets my goat, is Shapps blatantly lying on national TV, saying negotiations should be between unions and employers, and its nothing to do with him or his department.

 

[Ivor]

Where there are ticket barriers on the railway there is also a member of staff to help if there are difficulties. On London Underground (last time I went) there were staff available near ticket machines.

Unfortunately at ‘smaller’ Gateline stations it is not unusual to have just one member working Gateline & in addition having to deal with ASB, cleaning, disability assistance, laying of winter precautions.

Although solo working posts are more often than not allocated to agency staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

As mentioned before, in my view, the RMT need to keep Network Rail staff on strike to cause maximum operational disruption.

Which, presumably, is why they haven’t put the NR offer to their members, even though most people I speak to are quite keen on it.

I very much hope the RMT win out against the dreadful proposals to close ticket offices.

Ticket offices have been closing for years. The RMT know this, and know they can’t do much about it.

I suspect it will be a long time before a station with 10 million passengers in 2019-20 loses a manned ticket and inquiries office.

I’ll have a bet that It happens before next year is out.

 

[Carlisle]

So far the TOC “negotiations” seem to be (roughly) on the lines of “agree to the productivity changes and we can give you a figure”. Unsurprisingly, they aren’t going well.

Hardly surprising given most TOCs eventually just capitulated the last time serious productivity changes were attempted a few years ago.

 

[TUC]

A pointless non-idea dreamt up by the DfT that Shapps seems determined to achieve…

But that is a different issue to whether there are good business reasons for making the change. There are two different drivers that need separating out:
a) Is a given ticket office economically viable?
b) What support do passengers need at staions, including in relation to buying tickets?

The two do not necessarily equate to the same answer.

 

[M&NEJ]

But that is a different issue to whether there are good business reasons for making the change. There are two different drivers that need separating out:
a) Is a given ticket office economically viable?
b) What support do passengers need at staions, including in relation to buying tickets?

The two do not necessarily equate to the same answer.

...buying tickets, buying railcards, enquiring about times, fares, conditions applicable to tickets, complaints. Not everyone can use the internet; meaning we are fast becoming a two-tier society with policies like this. The alternative becomes having to drive ever further to find a ticket office!

 

[Moonshot]

...buying tickets, buying railcards, enquiring about times, fares, conditions applicable to tickets, complaints. Not everyone can use the internet; meaning we are fast becoming a two-tier society with policies like this. The alternative becomes having to drive ever further to find a ticket office!

Last time I looked , neither a TVM or indeed a guard on a train needed internet connection to buy a ticket

 

[Dryce]

Not everyone can use the internet; meaning we are fast becoming a two-tier society with policies like this.

It's become the modern equivalent of being able to read and write.

 

[yorksrob]

Some of these comments seem oddly focused as if lots of stations have ticket offices and not having one is unusual. I do wonder if they are made by South Easterners with a lack of a UK-wide perspective.

I'm certainly a South easterner, however I've lived oop north for about twenty five years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

I suspect it will be a long time before a station with 10 million passengers in 2019-20 loses a manned ticket and inquiries office. I gather assurances are being given that Rotherham and Meadowhall aren't likely to go any time soon either, but that may ultimately be down to local government. However redeploying some of the current staff onto concourses and platforms for at least part of their days may be a more effective use of resources.

Well, that's good news anyway.

 

[TUC]

...buying tickets, buying railcards, enquiring about times, fares, conditions applicable to tickets, complaints. Not everyone can use the internet; meaning we are fast becoming a two-tier society with policies like this. The alternative becomes having to drive ever further to find a ticket office!

What do you think passengers who use the vast majority of stations already without ticket offices do in relation to these issues?

 

[ComUtoR]

Genuine question (and no hidden agenda!) - do train crew contracts say, effectively “you will work your diagrams exactly as specified”, or do they effectively say “you will do the work required within your rostered times”

At my TOC all you are entitled to claim is your working hours. All work content can be cancelled at any time and you can be asked to work anything.

However, that also means that to request anything, you should really go through the process. The old way of "can you shunt this" for me. Gets refused because it's off the clock stuff or something where your diagram is exceptionally tight a single minutes breaks your entire day.

I used to do lots of extras but you find that the extra shunt you do means you are late for your next working' and it's you who have to explain it and swallow the delays.
Now everything goes through control. I'll still have to do it but it needs to be authorised, agreed and logged.