Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Agent_Squash]

I’ve given up on rail this summer. Apart from a trip to London in August, I’ve moved to the car or the bus.

I’m certainly not the only one. The strikes started at the beginning of the summer bus timetable in the Lakes - Stagecoach now operate the 555 fast down the M6, and it’s got steadily busier day after day between Lancaster and Kendal. It’s cheaper, the timings more convenient for the working day - I’d be surprised if many people went back prior to the end of the service.

I’m supportive of the strike action - but the public literally being unable to use the railway because of unpredictability caused by the different strike patterns will damage the railway long term. Much better to have a consistent strike so the travelling public aren’t screwed over as well.

And to think if the railway was in genuinely private hands they would’ve sorted out most of the mess we’ve got at the moment.

 

[Moonshot]

He's been fired.

Indeed he has been sacked ......Labour seemingly now washing there hands of this......though of course RMT are not actually affiliated with the Labour party anymore

 

[Sputnik89]

A “very good offer” LOL. A pay rise lower than offered to all other government controlled sectors this year...4%. That’s before we get into all the change of T’s&C’s. Also, no offer to TOCs.

Some of us have not had an offer at all yet, 4 months past the start of the pay year... (Probation Service).

 

[ComUtoR]

He's been fired.

Why has he been fired ? Did the previous Labour MPs who attended a picket line also get fired ?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Why has he been fired ? Did the previous Labour MPs who attended a picket line also get fired ?

He’s a front bencher. It’s collective responsibility.

 

[Signal_Box]

Not to any of the TOCs.

Network Rail

 

[Efini92]

Thank you. It is getting quite bad now and is certainly putting people off.

Here’s a list of all the ASLEF dates

 

[Islineclear3_1]

That's exactly my point. The question is, do the strikers really want to hurt the travelling public? Surely they would rather be hurting the Government or Rail Management for not giving them a deal that they're happy with? I've said before and I repeat, if they keep hurting the public, then ultimately they will be hurting the main source of income to their industry, which in turn will make future claims harder to agree to. It smacks of self-destruction, shooting in own foot etc.

I'm sure the strikers don't want to (intentionally) hurt the travelling public but they're certainly not hurting the Government. The Government don't give two hoots as most of them don't travel by train.

 

[ComUtoR]

He’s a front bencher. It’s collective responsibility.

However, frontbenchers Kate Osborne, Paula Barker and Navendu Mishra are among those to have tweeted pictures of themselves at picket lines.

Rail strike: Labour MPs defy Keir Starmer's picket line plea

A number of MPs show support for train strikes, despite warnings from the Labour leader.

www.bbc.co.uk

Is it safe to assume that these front benchers will also get fired ?

 

[carriageline]

I'm sure the strikers don't want to (intentionally) hurt the travelling public but they're certainly not hurting the Government. The Government don't give two hoots as most of them don't travel by train.

Genuine question. Don’t the government lose out on money somewhere along the line? As it’s paying the TOCs to run trains, but in some cases they are not, or running severely reduced? Refunding tickets etc. at some point, that finance burden must get back to the government?

Don’t want to discuss rights or wrongs, it was just a question.

 

[KM1991]

He’s a front bencher. It’s collective responsibility.

LOL. Starmer attended picket lines whilst a front bencher too. The man is a fraud, unfortunately for the Labour movement.

 

[Watershed]

Wasn't the £16bn put in because the Government had essentially started to enact parts of the Civil Contingencies Act to ensure essential running services as a response to COVID lockdowns? This wasn't the Government being generous about handing over money especially to the railways out of kindness. The law of the land required it. The £16bn they keep getting quoted is a write off they had to do regardless by law. It's a red herring and it's embarrassing to see government officials use it as a stick to beat the railways with, because its a nonsense argument. They were putting that money in anyway.

The Civil Contingencies Act wasn't at any stage used. This is despite (or, rather, because of!) the fact that it would have been far more appropriate and would have delivered a much higher level of Parliamentary scrutiny of the various Regulations.

 

[Vespa]

During the course of my work I have observed the bus stops are slightly busier than usual same for buses in spite of the Arriva bus drivers strike, none of them is overcrowded, it tells you a lot.

I have to conclude the strikes are not having a big impact for my area at least, don't know about the rest of Britain I would imagine its similar, news reports are saying it's very quiet, no panic, no desperate crowds begging to board trains etc.

It's just as I thought, with WFH, increased car ownership, national coach network the strike is likely to turn into a damp squib, railway no longer has the grip on Britain as it used to have, it's not the 70s anymore not everybody on the train is a commuter and especially since Covid the world has changed there's more focus on leisure travel and wider transport options.

As for myself I'm planning to use my car more and buses where possible so I can plan my trips away as I cannot rely on the train running as expected, heritage railways will still be running regardless so they will form part of my itinerary anyway.

 

[dk1]

I’ve cancelled most things this year as hate driving or any sort of road transport for any distance & so not bothered to plan much if I’m honest. I look at it in the way that I’ve lost the last couple of Summers so one more isn’t going to make much difference. Here’s to 2023.

 

[Shrop]

I don't see it as shooting myself in the foot. I see it as the Governments complete disdain for staff and their contempt for the public. I also see it as a fight for my future.

What I do find odd is that the passengers are happy to sit back and do nothing. Why aren't they pushing the Gov to resolve the strikes. Why aren't they pushing for lower fares and improvements to services ?

I have plenty of sympathy with rail workers, but I'm not convinced that trying to push the responsibility on to passengers to in turn pressure the Government, is the right thing to do. I despise the way that political parties are so dismissive of important transport and travel situations, but passengers know that Government are turning a deaf ear to a lot of this, so how are passengers supposed to take meaningful action to support the cause?

The strongest action that passengers can take may be at the ballot box at the next election. For me a very significant factor with my vote, is how much interest is taken in transport. However, the problem with this is that no political parties place transport very high up their agenda, and to compound that, most people put a strong emphasis on their own wealth when it comes to their vote, usually a lot more so than on how their trains are doing. So given all of this, what makes you think that using passengers to pressure the Government will have much effect?

 

[quantinghome]

He’s a front bencher. It’s collective responsibility.

Yep. Indeed, he looks to have gone out of his way to renounce collective responsibility in the most public way possible. Lots of twitter commentary that he's trying to get sacked.

There's also local internal Labour politics going on here. Sam Tarry recently lost a battle with his local constituency party to avoid reselection. If he fails to be reselected (and this may happen as the circumstances of his original selection in 2019 are controversial) then he'll be looking for another constituency to select him. Doubtless there are principles at stake, but this is a way of increasing his support with the unions and showing that he's making a 'principled stand against The Leadership' which appeals to certain sections of the Labour membership. His tweets that he his "on the side of the members, not the establishment", would appear to confirm his motivation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

LOL. Starmer attended picket lines whilst a front bencher too. The man is a fraud, unfortunately for the Labour movement.

He's just looking to avoid a very obvious elephant trap. The Tories and their tabloid mates would love to splash photos of Starmer and the Labour front bench on a picket line. By avoiding this, he's making sure the dispute is about workers vs the Tory government.

 

[Dave91131]

In light of the latest strike being announced I can see a downward spiral of advance bookings; given the period 14 days notice needed ahead of a strike, I can see the casual traveller waiting until just less than 14 days prior to their intended travel date, taking one look at available fares and times, and if nothing cheap or convenient enough is available thinking "sod it" and making alternative travel arrangements.

This will probably be further compounded by the ongoing shambolic service being provided by operators such as Avanti and TPE (and probably to a lesser degree in respect of advance tickets, Thameslink) as well as the alarming regularity with which the ECML infrastructure seems to shut it for hours on end.

 

[Gostav]

I have to conclude the strikes are not having a big impact for my area at least, don't know about the rest of Britain I would imagine its similar, news reports are saying it's very quiet, no panic, no desperate crowds begging to board trains etc.

It's just as I thought, with WFH, increased car ownership, national coach network the strike is likely to turn into a damp squib, railway no longer has the grip on Britain as it used to have, it's not the 70s anymore not everybody on the train is a commuter and especially since Covid the world has changed there's more focus on leisure travel and wider transport options.

Well, it is hard to think that is lucky or unlucky for railway, I don't know how patient commuters in this country are and for those who have to rely on trains, sometimes taking anger at railways, and some uncivilized things may happen.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Rail strike: Labour MPs defy Keir Starmer's picket line plea

A number of MPs show support for train strikes, despite warnings from the Labour leader.

www.bbc.co.uk

Is it safe to assume that these front benchers will also get fired ?

That article was from the last strikes. It's clear that Labour's policy now (not that I agree that it's right!) is to not allow front benchers to join picket lines. @samuelmorris has it spot on in his post.

 

[JonathanH]

What I do find odd is that the passengers are happy to sit back and do nothing. Why aren't they pushing the Gov to resolve the strikes.

It isn't my view but I suspect any push from people bothered would be for the government to ban strikes rather than resolve the industrial relations issues in the manner you would like. Besides, most people still don't think the government is the employer. The number of people who actually need the railway has reduced. It has become a 'nice to have'.

I think some underestimate the number of workers who are now (rightly or wrongly) used to the words "...and I'm afraid there is no money for a pay increase this year".

Why aren't they pushing for lower fares and improvements to services ?

Not happening. Anyone who thinks fares will go down is naive and any chance of improvements to services is now long gone with the collapse of peak demand.

It's equally strange to see people almost salivating at the prospect of routes and services being cut.

I think a lot of people have lost interest, now they don't have to travel daily and aren't that fussed at the quantum of the service. They might note that services used to be better but it is quid pro pro that if they travel less they can hardly expect the number of services to be maintained.

I hope no physical routes see demand fall so much that they shut but am not really bothered about services being reduced to lower frequencies, or former through routes being severed in pursuit of lower costs.

Here’s to 2023.

Aren't we just going to have the same situation next year (with the severity dependant on whether the government gets its way on all the nasties)? I don't see the pay situation is going to be any easier next year.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It isn't my view but I suspect any push from people bothered would be for the government to ban strikes rather than resolve the industrial relations issues in the manner you would like. Besides, most people still don't think the government is the employer. The number of people who actually need the railway has reduced. It has become a 'nice to have'.

I think some underestimate the number of workers who are now (rightly or wrongly) used to the words "...and I'm afraid there is no money for a pay increase this year".


Not happening. Anyone who thinks fares will go down is naive and any chance of improvements to services is now long gone with the collapse of peak demand.


I think a lot of people have lost interest, now they don't have to travel daily and aren't that fussed at the quantum of the service. They might note that services used to be better but it is quid pro pro that if they travel less they can hardly expect the number of services to be maintained.

I hope no physical routes see demand fall so much that they shut but am not really bothered about services being reduced to lower frequencies, or former through routes being severed in pursuit of lower costs.


Aren't we just going to have the same situation next year (with the severity dependant on whether the government gets its way on all the nasties)? I don't see the pay situation is going to be any easier next year.

Depends how long the deals are. I think the network rail dispute will be resolved before too long, but who knows about the toc side.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have plenty of sympathy with rail workers, but I'm not convinced that trying to push the responsibility on to passengers to in turn pressure the Government, is the right thing to do. I despise the way that political parties are so dismissive of important transport and travel situations, but passengers know that Government are turning a deaf ear to a lot of this, so how are passengers supposed to take meaningful action to support the cause?

The strongest action that passengers can take may be at the ballot box at the next election. For me a very significant factor with my vote, is how much interest is taken in transport. However, the problem with this is that no political parties place transport very high up their agenda, and to compound that, most people put a strong emphasis on their own wealth when it comes to their vote, usually a lot more so than on how their trains are doing. So given all of this, what makes you think that using passengers to pressure the Government will have much effect?

Because its the Government that is running the Railway. If passengers and Gov want the railway to be a public service, with a public responsibility, and minimum services etc. then its the passenger that needs to ask for it. Your local MP has a responsibility to their constituents and if there is a desire for better public transport provision then it should be provided. If its a national issue, then I'd expect to see more things coming our of central Government.

There are plenty of passenger focus groups that I am yet to hear from during this dispute. Closing ticket offices will affect the passenger but its the RMT that's fighting for it.

 

[Horizon22]

What I do find odd is that the passengers are happy to sit back and do nothing. Why aren't they pushing the Gov to resolve the strikes. Why aren't they pushing for lower fares and improvements to services ? It's equally strange to see people almost salivating at the prospect of routes and services being cut. Ultimately the passenger is the one who suffers the most. If they cut 50% of services at my TOC then I'd still be a Driver, getting a decent wage.

I'll happily fight for something I believe in and fight for greater investment in the Railway.

Probably because - outside of London and some of the major cities - rail travel is a minority mode of transport. Even with trains full and standing on the weekend on intercity routes, there's still more people driving. And many people consider rail too expensive, so these people are perhaps reluctant (if maybe a little understanding) to add to the costs of the railway if they fear it might increase fares (even though they'll likely rise considerably anyway). Of course it doesn't necessarily work that way, but people think it does.

Also I do have some debate as to whether the scattered nature of the strikes will have the most impact. The week when they ran Mon / Wed / Fri was a bit of a nightmare to manage as the impacts spilled across the whole week.

 

[dk1]

Aren't we just going to have the same situation next year (with the severity dependant on whether the government gets its way on all the nasties)? I don't see the pay situation is going to be any easier next year.

Who knows mate? Just have to plod on & muddle through.

 

[JonathanH]

Closing ticket offices will affect the passenger but its the RMT that's fighting for it.

But again there, people's actions aren't consistent with that fight either as they seek to use e-tickets for long distance journeys and PAYG for shorter distances. That is very much the direction of travel.

 

[Horizon22]

But again there, people's actions aren't consistent with that fight either as they seek to use e-tickets for long distance journeys and PAYG for shorter distances. That is very much the direction of travel.

With all the best will in the world, the RMT won't be able to fight against this forever. In 20 years, I find it likely outside major locations (and even then numbers will probably be cut down), the humble ticket office at your local station will become a thing of the past.

 

[Dood75]

Politics and all aside, I have tickets booked to travel on the 13th using Crosscountry (and the 20th), returning off holiday.What is the policy concerning ticket use on strike days...do they allow travel on services the day before to avoid the strike or will tickets be allowed to be used the day after strike days only??

Dudz

 

[Tetchytyke]

And to think if the railway was in genuinely private hands they would’ve sorted out most of the mess we’ve got

Discontent isn't limited to the railways, though.

Arriva Merseyside drivers are on strike and no buses are running, it was the same at Arriva Yorkshire last month. Stagecoach Merseyside only averted action with an 11% deal.

Extremely high inflation after 12 years of wage stagnation will cause a reckoning. And not just with strike action- bus companies are struggling to recruit because the wages are uncompetitive.

 

[43066]

<incorrect answer buzzer noise>

No, I am pointing out that it may have been much more difficult to run anything like what the industry did without the extra support. Unless the TOCs were willing to lose billions, which I'm sure they would not have been.

But that is a completely different point to the one I was addressing. Earlier on you said:

add to that the extra £18 billion (if I recall correctly) put into to the industry during covid measures to prevent widescale furloughing of staff & even job losses.

This is factually incorrect, as explained above. It’s also disingenuous of you to make such a statement.

You keep moving the goalposts, I can only keep repeating myself, so perhaps we should park that particular point. The posts are there for anyone who wishes to read back over them.

OK maybe not grateful then, I know that doesn't sit well with the grumpy element of the rail industry. But there are sectors that lament the fact they didn't get the support, especially those people who lost 20% of their wages on furlough.

Always looking down… There are sectors where people have been given large pay rises, even above inflation. But we aren’t ever talking about those sectors on here, are we!?

Even if we accept TOC staff are public sector just for a second (as you know I don’t think they should be) there are *true* public sector workers who have also been fully funded throughout covid, who have been offered better pay deals than TOC staff have been (a big fat zero for most TOCs so far).

I wish, I'm on Day T-2 before pay day......

Ouch!

I wouldn’t say “nothing”. Some staff had reduced number of shifts for which they were required and were spare more often (although not often a reality, some staff were “spare at home”. Revenue checks generally weren’t carried out, although early doors it was a very unknown situation so I can imagine the wariness from guards to be there at all. Also there was barely any service disruption (performance was extremely high due to the reduced volume of trains) which makes many the jobs of many grades of rail staff easier.

I won’t disagree though that’s it’s not like rail staff had a say in the matter; much of what happened was dictated.

I’m certainly not disagreeing with any of the above. I would only point out “spare from home” was brief and really only a thing during the first part of the pandemic. I know you’re fully aware of that but it’s important to make it clear as it appears to be something people jump on.

I do know many who would rather have been furloughed. Many were scared to come to work in the early days - quite wrongly in my view - but they were scared nonetheless, and still had to keep coming in. They’d have preferred furlough or work from home! The point is none of this was optional.

All a distant memory now, thankfully.

In 20 years, I find it likely outside major locations (and even then numbers will probably be cut down), the humble ticket office at your local station will become a thing of the past.

I imagine it’ll be rather less than 20 years. There does need to be realism from the unions here.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Probably the subject for a speculative thread but if demand for the railway reduces, how will TOCs manage to pay the leasing costs on rolling stock sat doing next to nothing due to lost ticket revenue?