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Railway byelaws
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R
RailUK Forums
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See - http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf
Available online and you can print if you have a printer
HTH
Available online and you can print if you have a printer
HTH
That is quite concerning, especially if people do not have access to a computer or the internet to get a copy. Wonder if that would be an acceptable excuse if you ever did break a byelaw? Need someone to put it to the test...
Well, I don't carry around a copy of the Highway Code, the Road Traffic Acts and any other documents full outlining all criminal offences in Britain, would that be an acceptable excuse for not knowing?
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Ignorance is not an excuse.
As I've said, we need someone to put it to the test...
If you've made the effort to go and ask for a copy at the station, and they don't have one, then perhaps it would be a good excuse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not suggesting that it is, but it would be interesting if a case came up in court where a person is being prosecuted for breaking a railway byelaw, yet they could prove that they attempted to gain a copy of the byelaws at a station.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
If I want a copy of the Offences Against the Person Act, either I print it myself, or pay the Stationary Office to send a copy to me. If I go into a court, they're not going to give me a copy. Yet, if I go outside and punch someone, I'm still guilty of battery even though I asked for a copy of the Act and didn't get one.
Byelaws have to be published (and Railway byelaws are - on the internet, and freely available as leaflets in certain places), but not knowing is not an excuse.
hairyhandedfool
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The ticket office should be able to print them off for you.
So what happens if:
a) You don't have a computer or access to the internet
and
b) The station either doesn't have a copy or won't give you one?
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
It may act as a mitigating factor, but I don't think it'll get you off.
merlodlliw
Established Member
Same as the Guidelines for taking pictures, we need a test case. I expect you are probably right, unless there was a favourable judge running the case.
EM2
Established Member
As far as I am aware, stations are expected to have a copy for their own use, but not for free distribution to the public. However, they do (or should) have copies of the National Conditions of Carriage.
EDIT TfL say:
EDIT TfL say:
Hmm, as far as I'm aware, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage are no longer published in leaflet form. I've asked at various stations for an up-to-date copy only to be told they no longer have them. Instead I have been offered a print out - but thought it a bit unfair to tie up the ticket office printer while it churned out 30 pages!
So now, I've printed my own copy at home, 2 pages per sheet both sides and made my own leaflet!
I have only recently started taking an interest in railways after a long break and all of the publications I have purchased suggest I take a copy of the bye laws with me when I look at trains on railway property.With the current nanny state H&S culture we now live in I will be able to show them to the railway personnel challenging me that I have a perfect right to be there and record and photograph
You have a very good point there. It has become much more difficult over time to photograph and record. People just won't leave you alone.
the sniper
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Go and ask at your local BTP station. They might find it odd that you're asking for them, but they'd probably print off a copy for you if you so desired.
Ask at a BTP station or write to the TOC or even the DfT, to get a copy sent to you?
What would you do if you bought a new car from a car showroom and they couldn't provide you with a paper copy of the Road Traffic Act?
What would you do if you bought a new car from a car showroom and they couldn't provide you with a paper copy of the Road Traffic Act?
I'd go somewhere that could provide me with a copy!
In all seriousness, the internet (wonderful it may be) has made it for the vast majority of us, easier to access information. However imagine if I had no computer, I wouldn't know where to look for 95% of the information I know is available on line in some form. Now I would certainly expect a staffed railway station to either have a copy or at least where to get one for something as important as the byelaws.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
This is actually quite an interesting question which is difficult to answer fully. But in response to most of the other replies, it is quite correct that the force of any Law is absolute, and is quite independent of a person's access to the law as written. The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) requires persons to have access to Justice, requires Decisions in Justice to be available in writing, but it doesn't, in itself, require Law (in all its manifestations) to be published.
I've dug out my dusty copy of Barnett's 'Constitutional and Administrative Law' to help me.
The "Statutory Instruments Act" 1946 makes clear the process by which Laws (not Bylaws, but please bear with me) are created, developed and enacted. They will be available (in England) in The Stationary Office and the House of Commons Library - an excellent resource in my opinion, and one which is often overlooked.
Others have raised doubts about the written record in the past, but there is no escape: "No one may question the validity of an Act of Parliament". Classic authorities are 'The Princes Case' 1606 and often cited more recently, 'Pickin vs British Railways Board' (1974) which affirmed that "the supremacy of Parliament" was effectively demonstrated by the revolution of 1688 [Lord Reid].
As for Bylaws, these are most recently endowed with the force of Law through the 1972 Joint Committee on Delegated Responsibility; this defined many ways in which Law may be made other than through Acts of Parliament. Some notable inclusions are the Decisions of Judges, Resolutions of the House of Commons, Local Authorities by way of Bylaws and public Bodies by way of Bylaws - that will include the Railway Bylaws. These are not required (to my knowledge) to record their actions in the HoC Library nor in the Stationary Office, but to maintain their own records of their own decisions. There are several model conditions attached to the Delegated Authority such as requiring the House of Commons to Approve them or giving the House of Commons 40 days to reject them; clearly these would require the Bylaw to be placed in the HoC Library.
Crucually, bodies who are empowered make law by virtue of the Statutory Instruments Act (Bylaws) ARE required to publish those Laws. The authority is R vs Sheer Metalcraft (1954):-
Where the offence in question consists of a contravention of a Statutory Instrument it will be a defence for the accused to prove that the Instrument had not been published (at the date of the alleged contravention), "It is then upon the Crown to prove that, . . . . , reasonable steps have been taken for the purpose of bringing the instrument to the notice of the public or persons likely to be affected by it".
There is an earlier Judgement which refers to Orders which had not been published at the time of the alledged offence in Johnson vs Sargant "I am unable to hold that this Order came into operation before it was known." But this won't help us with Railway Byelaws which may be known but just not accessible by someone.
Parliament is not required to scrutinise delegated legislation and due to the sheer volume (about 3000 items per year) would be unable to. However, delegated legislation (incl Railway Bylaws) CAN be scrutinised in the Courts; this may be in the course of a Claim, a Civil or Criminal action, by a Judicial Review, or in the course of an Appeal.
These delegated law-making powers cannot then be delegated to another. (eg to a TOC).
In the case of the British Railways Board, then it is (was) for the BRB to make available its Bylaws. That requirement would (I assume, for I have not checked) have passed to a successor - I don't believe it was the SRA later ORR so presumably passed to ATOC, and I expect the prohibition on delegating powers also would have passed to ATOC (preventing delegation to a TOC). This is hopefully defined somewhere in the privitisation documents (but which I do not have).
The short answer, then, is I would ask to see a copy of the Railway Byelaws from ATOC and not necessarily at a station. I would not expect any Court would be able to consider a Defendant's difficulty in obtaining a copy. Indeed there is no requirement for a citizen to be able to read at all (never mind access to a computer); but we are all subject to the Law.
I've dug out my dusty copy of Barnett's 'Constitutional and Administrative Law' to help me.
The "Statutory Instruments Act" 1946 makes clear the process by which Laws (not Bylaws, but please bear with me) are created, developed and enacted. They will be available (in England) in The Stationary Office and the House of Commons Library - an excellent resource in my opinion, and one which is often overlooked.
Others have raised doubts about the written record in the past, but there is no escape: "No one may question the validity of an Act of Parliament". Classic authorities are 'The Princes Case' 1606 and often cited more recently, 'Pickin vs British Railways Board' (1974) which affirmed that "the supremacy of Parliament" was effectively demonstrated by the revolution of 1688 [Lord Reid].
As for Bylaws, these are most recently endowed with the force of Law through the 1972 Joint Committee on Delegated Responsibility; this defined many ways in which Law may be made other than through Acts of Parliament. Some notable inclusions are the Decisions of Judges, Resolutions of the House of Commons, Local Authorities by way of Bylaws and public Bodies by way of Bylaws - that will include the Railway Bylaws. These are not required (to my knowledge) to record their actions in the HoC Library nor in the Stationary Office, but to maintain their own records of their own decisions. There are several model conditions attached to the Delegated Authority such as requiring the House of Commons to Approve them or giving the House of Commons 40 days to reject them; clearly these would require the Bylaw to be placed in the HoC Library.
Crucually, bodies who are empowered make law by virtue of the Statutory Instruments Act (Bylaws) ARE required to publish those Laws. The authority is R vs Sheer Metalcraft (1954):-
Where the offence in question consists of a contravention of a Statutory Instrument it will be a defence for the accused to prove that the Instrument had not been published (at the date of the alleged contravention), "It is then upon the Crown to prove that, . . . . , reasonable steps have been taken for the purpose of bringing the instrument to the notice of the public or persons likely to be affected by it".
There is an earlier Judgement which refers to Orders which had not been published at the time of the alledged offence in Johnson vs Sargant "I am unable to hold that this Order came into operation before it was known." But this won't help us with Railway Byelaws which may be known but just not accessible by someone.
Parliament is not required to scrutinise delegated legislation and due to the sheer volume (about 3000 items per year) would be unable to. However, delegated legislation (incl Railway Bylaws) CAN be scrutinised in the Courts; this may be in the course of a Claim, a Civil or Criminal action, by a Judicial Review, or in the course of an Appeal.
These delegated law-making powers cannot then be delegated to another. (eg to a TOC).
In the case of the British Railways Board, then it is (was) for the BRB to make available its Bylaws. That requirement would (I assume, for I have not checked) have passed to a successor - I don't believe it was the SRA later ORR so presumably passed to ATOC, and I expect the prohibition on delegating powers also would have passed to ATOC (preventing delegation to a TOC). This is hopefully defined somewhere in the privitisation documents (but which I do not have).
The short answer, then, is I would ask to see a copy of the Railway Byelaws from ATOC and not necessarily at a station. I would not expect any Court would be able to consider a Defendant's difficulty in obtaining a copy. Indeed there is no requirement for a citizen to be able to read at all (never mind access to a computer); but we are all subject to the Law.
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It won't say this in the byelaws. Nobody has a right to be at a railway station and photograph things. The only people technically with a right to be at a railway station are those who are travelling by train or those conducting authorised business on or about the station. You are not in a public place, it is a private place of business. None of this actually really matters, but this is actually where the law will stand on the matter, if you're asked to either move along or stop photographing then you should do so.
If I paid to post a package with Eddie Stobart I wouldn't expect to be allowed to stand at their depots all day photographing their trucks and staff coming and going.
merlodlliw
Established Member
Fine, various publications may be obtained from the ORR as well as the BTP, they have a helpful enquiry desk,
you will find this page useful . http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.52
But do remember some railway areas do not belong to NR,Rhyl Station for example is owned by the County Council & Leased by ATW/WAG, private sidings Chirk Kronospan
another example may have differing regulations posted.
Bob
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
@55003
I think you'll find that all of the issues regarding any "perfect rights" that you may have to be on railway premises and to take photographs have been argued extensively on the Photography section of this forum and elsewhere, so I won't confuse matters by starting to comment again here.
But I'd be very surprised if, after reading these debates, you still felt confident that you had such "perfect rights".
I think you'll find that all of the issues regarding any "perfect rights" that you may have to be on railway premises and to take photographs have been argued extensively on the Photography section of this forum and elsewhere, so I won't confuse matters by starting to comment again here.
But I'd be very surprised if, after reading these debates, you still felt confident that you had such "perfect rights".
The Barlow Boy
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Go and ask at your local BTP station. They might find it odd that you're asking for them, but they'd probably print off a copy for you if you so desired.
Ask at a BTP station or write to the TOC or even the DfT, to get a copy sent to you?
What would you do if you bought a new car from a car showroom and they couldn't provide you with a paper copy of the Road Traffic Act?
You don't just buy a car - at least not generally - until you have taken and passed your driving test which includes both written (theory) and practical (actually driving) test. Therefore you don't need a copy of the road traffic acts as you have printed (a driving licence) proof that you're familiar with them. It's a whole lot different than buying a ticket and using a train - how is someone expected to know the ins and outs of railway bye-laws? Most rail people don't - only the ones that suit them.
route:oxford
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I had to reach for a dictionary to check...
By law, Bylaw, By-law, Byelaw, Bye law, Bye-law
All seem acceptable.
Don't you just love the english language!
But...
Stationary/Stationery
A is for Arrested.
E is for Envelope.
By law, Bylaw, By-law, Byelaw, Bye law, Bye-law
All seem acceptable.
Don't you just love the english language!
But...
Stationary/Stationery
A is for Arrested.
E is for Envelope.
The same could be said for any laws.
Old Timer
Established Member
Thank you for all your replies.I have tried a number of stations including Charing Cross in my quest without success.
I remember when the railway was a publicly owned and operated organisation and questions about access being refused for photography or number taking would have been laughable.
What a sad world we live in, peopled by under educated and ill informed employees who work for organisations that have forgotten about their customers due to their desire to satisfy their own corporate greed.
I remember when the railway was a publicly owned and operated organisation and questions about access being refused for photography or number taking would have been laughable.
What a sad world we live in, peopled by under educated and ill informed employees who work for organisations that have forgotten about their customers due to their desire to satisfy their own corporate greed.
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