RailUK Forums First Class Obsession?

[yorksrob]

I must admit, 1st class does seem to attract proportionally quite a large degree of discussion, more so than price which seems to get less discussion than I would expect.

In truth, I enjoy my increasingly occasional forays into 1st (and the decreasing number of cheap fares on EMT's excellent 125's is a cause of some concern), however I do enjoy sometimes reading the EC 1st class thread, just in case my ship comes in.
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As I say, I tend to avoid such threads, but the boasts/ moans have a habit of creeping into other threads - e.g. people moaning on GWML upgrades that the amended HSTs (and move to IEPs) will remove their God-given-right to swank down to Cornwall and back in First Class for the price of a pub meal. Can be amusing to see the toys well and truly out of the pram though...

To be fair, it doesn't seem much of an upgrade.
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That's the crux of it for me here, and you're the only person who can do something about your personal situation.

Actually, if the railway industry introduced a decent national railcard scheme, it could improve the situation for myself and a lot of other passengers.

Railcards are there to encourage people in general to undertake more discretionary travel to make the most of a sunk cost.

 

[47271]

If anyone here has a hangup, rage or obsession about First Class rail travel then they need to come to Scotland and learn to feel good about the benefits of sitting in Standard in our long distance services, we're a truly classless society. Here we can:

1. Purchase a First Class ticket and find when the train arrives that, although in every other respect identical, mysteriously has standard class seating where the First Class compartment should be.

2. If it does have small First Class sections these are located at the carriage ends and over the wheels, leading to a lurching ride and a slight feeling of queasiness en route.

3. Receive a complimentary cup of tea half the size of one costing a modest price in Standard. In the circumstances of (1) above, as a bonus you can also have this served to you in a Standard Class seat. Or in (2) above, spill it as the train crosses points at speed.

4. Best of all, we have another type of train where First Class accomodation is denoted by clashing blue antimacassars against purple seats, and small flickering table lamps. Every other aspect, including the seats themselves, is identical to that found in Standard, and there is no obvious separation from the main saloon.

Apologies to anyone who's ever paid to travel First Class on Scotrail, just pulling your leg.

 

[Clip]

I'm sorry I don't have the correct ticket to enter this first class discussion even though according to NCoF state that my entry is allowable due to me being able to post elsewhere on my journey so I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave and create a 843756348 page discussion on whether or not I should be allowed in.

 

[Techniquest]

Odd, I've not seen much discussion of First Class travel anywhere lately. Maybe I'm not spending enough time on the forum to see it?

I love First Class travel, alas it is a very unusual occurance for me, more so on a proper IC journey. My last First Class journey was on LM on the Great Escape before the last one, which was a fair while ago and even then not a 'proper' First Class experience! So on the exceptionally rare occasion I get the opportunity, I will enjoy every minute of it! Yes I am the sort to maximise the complimentary drinks, got to be done! After all it doesn't cost the TOCs that much to source the coffee, no doubt cheaper than alcoholic beverages cost them by a country mile!

First Class Advances are difficult for me to come across, and even when I do find a route with them they're usually far too much more than Standard ones. I used to love Weekend First, not had an opportunity to use that in forever!

 

[Starmill]

I must admit, 1st class does seem to attract proportionally quite a large degree of discussion, more so than price which seems to get less discussion than I would expect.

I like to bring up what an execrable rip-off the majority of Standard walk-up tickets are. Unfortunately, I can't without receiving abuse about it from certain other members, which bores me. So I just content myself instead by going around doing all the travel I like while not paying the insane-o-fares they like to ask for, and that members here (high among their ranks, 'how-much-extra-do-you-want-to-pay-not-to-ride-a-cattle-truck' DarloRich, I might add!) usually try to justify.

The railcard discounts one of the issues - it insulates you from the true cost of travel. I, and others, find it infuriating to see people complain about their railcard subsided first class travel experience when it is much better than the non subsided travel offered in second class. It is that lack of understanding that grates.

Subsidised =/= discounted.

Unlike with a subsidy, the removal of a discount does not mean more cash is available for redistribution to the things you like - it depends on elasticities. The offering of a railcard discount in First Class is a commercial proposition designed to maximise profits. The fact they are enduring in certain cases (and notably, not others) probably means they are working. Removing the discount, as you seem to advocate, might therefore lead to higher Standard fares to make up the difference in lost revenue.

There is no subsidy on railcards, it's simply not relevant. Please try to understand this point before coming up with further nonsense on the matter. Thank you.

Who is entitled to what discount, when and why are debates that can be had, but are subjects large enough to warrant their own threads. Feel free to create one if actually you would just like to express your jealousy :P

Odd we don't have the same threads about standard of second class service, about quiet crockery or quiet zones, about second class waiting rooms etc etc etc.

Are we reading the same forum? The vast, vast majority of infrastructure and services that gets discussed reflects what is actually out there; that which can be used by all ticket holders.

mine were free via the good people at the Student Union and Midland Bank/Nat Wets Bank ( if you opened an account).

You got a free Railcard? I've never had a free railcard. You're out of touch with the real world in which most of us have to actually pay for these things. It's your insulation from the railcard charges that many of us suffer that grates with me.

All i want is people to understand that their privileged world is not the same as the world enjoyed by others. Great if you can afford FC travel or qualify for a railcard, enjoy the time you do and enjoy FC! Just remember that it doesn't last forever.

You currently have a job? Well that seems like privileged to me at present! Does that last forever? And yet I'm the one in First Class and you're the one moaning about not being there. What does that tell you?

The question is: Why is this board and many of its members obsessed with first class travel?

My view is that many of the posters here lack the maturity and emotional intelligence to understand that first class travel, especially discounted first class travel, is a privilege and not the norm. Because they travel first class on a regular basis they lack exposure to and fail to understand the realities of life for the majority of railway passengers in this country.

Discuss

And so to the point; you'd probably hate me, because I travel First Class most days of the week :P

The crux of the matter is how much I paid for it. What was the marginal cost? I'm not wealthy and couldn't possibly afford the extortionate sums you see some people paying. I'm often sat in the next bay to someone with a ticket that cost maybe 200 times mine per journey (although they'd be making a journey 2-3 times the distance). If you include food, alone, to say nothing of wifi access, power or comfort I'm 'earning back' nearly half of the marginal cost of First Class.

Is it a privilege? Or is it shrewd consumerism? I'm as in touch with 'the realities' of rail travel as I could be without doing it full-time, and chances are I have more leisure time in which to enjoy it than you do.

And one of the biggest 'realities' is that if you don't look for a good deal on these rails, you won't get one. You say First Class is too expensive? I say you're not trying hard enough :P

 

[Butts]

If anyone here has a hangup, rage or obsession about First Class rail travel then they need to come to Scotland and learn to feel good about the benefits of sitting in Standard in our long distance services, we're a truly classless society. Here we can:

1. Purchase a First Class ticket and find when the train arrives that, although in every other respect identical, mysteriously has standard class seating where the First Class compartment should be.

2. If it does have small First Class sections these are located at the carriage ends and over the wheels, leading to a lurching ride and a slight feeling of queasiness en route.

3. Receive a complimentary cup of tea half the size of one costing a modest price in Standard. In the circumstances of (1) above, as a bonus you can also have this served to you in a Standard Class seat. Or in (2) above, spill it as the train crosses points at speed.

4. Best of all, we have another type of train where First Class accomodation is denoted by clashing blue antimacassars against purple seats, and small flickering table lamps. Every other aspect, including the seats themselves, is identical to that found in Standard, and there is no obvious separation from the main saloon.

Apologies to anyone who's ever paid to travel First Class on Scotrail, just pulling your leg.

There are a few East Coast Services available which travel North of the Central Belt and provide a superior service to Scotrail.

You forgot to mention in addition to the "fun sized" hot beverage you also get a little shortbread or the like and a Scotsman / Evening Times if they have not been pinched.

No First Class Advances on Scotrail either.

Bonus they are often used on routes not due to convey First Class (Falkirk G to Glasgow) so you can use them for "free".

 

[Johnuk123]

Never bought a first class ticket in my life.

 

[Chrism20]

The question is: Why is this board and many of its members obsessed with first class travel?

My view is that many of the posters here lack the maturity and emotional intelligence to understand that first class travel, especially discounted first class travel, is a privilege and not the norm. Because they travel first class on a regular basis they lack exposure to and fail to understand the realities of life for the majority of railway passengers in this country.

Discuss

Hardly a privilege when the fares are openly available on numerous websites and can also be purchased at a ticket office. The purchaser does not have to jump through hoops to prove they are worthy enough to purchase a first class ticket.

Railcards again are widely available, can be purchased online, at any ticket office etc by anyone who is entitled to purchase one. Again these fares are widely available.

Personally I travel a mixture of first and standard although almost all of my long distance travel is first class. Mainly due to the extra space and I particularly like the individual seats if travelling alone. Personal preference. I do however expect the advertised service to be available in full complimentary or not and I will raise a concern if it is not provided. Try pushing the complimentary issue with VTEC beyond the CSC in Plymouth and they fold like a deck of cards which tells you everything you need to know about complimentary.

Perhaps if you don't like what is being discussed you should show the maturity and emotional intelligence to swiftly move along and try not to let it bother you.

 

[EssexGonzo]

I think I can see where the OP might be coming from here but I'd re-characterise the question (if I were asking it) as: "Why do some people when discussing 1st Class focus obsessively on many of the irrelevant fripperies rather than the important stuff?"

Now it's important to note that when I refer to irrelevant fripperies, I mean "in my most humble opinion".

For example:

- Wi-fi. Of course it's going to be rubbish on a train. And in this age of 3g/4g, why is it so critical anyway? Would it make me travel 1st? Never.
- Food, and how much of it is free, when's it served, do I get 2 biscuits or 3, when's the new menu out on GWR/EC/WC? In this crowded day and age where fast food rules and space dictates that we squeeze as many people as possible in - get over it. Take your own. Most large stations have food for you to buy to take on the train.
- Free booze. Ditto. If you really need a drink, take your own. You're never going to get enough choice on a train anyway. Definitely not a reason to go first class. And the Argentinian Malbec on GWR is a tad young anyway.
- Because it makes me feel better than the great unwashed in Standard. In which case get over yourself. This is just like the "I'm flying business class so I am a superior human being" syndrome.

For me, the reasons for booking 1st (and flying business) are:

- Space and comfort. The extra width makes it nicer and I like the single seats.
- Relative extra quiet - because there are less people in the carriage.

And that's it, nothing else. Nothing to do with the stupid frilly bits or my own lack of self esteem that needs boosting by telling everyone about it. It's a metal tube with loads of people on it. Mass transit. Not a luxury experience.

 

[me123]

Why are people "obsessed" with FC travel? I don't think they are on here, TBH.

As has been said by mojo already, people in general are often more interested in FC travel than standard, and if you look at aviation trip reports you'll see a preference for the premium products. People would rather read about a FC Emirates trip to Australia (which is something I'm probably never going to afford) than a Ryanair jaunt to Stansted (which most people can afford, and is much less interesting to the reader). Likewise, I could post a trip report about a trip from Livingston North to Edinburgh on a 334, which will be much less interesting than a First Class report for the onward journey to London. There's more to discuss, and there's a bit of intrigue seeing what the extra money gets you without actually having to pay for it yourself. (Maybe not an entirely fair comparison as no FC operator on the railways offers anything close to what Emirates does, but you get the general idea).

I have seen some interesting reports about trips in FC that are fair. I've also seen reports where I find the gripes to be ludicrous. That's also true of just about every other aspect of this forum. I've seen people complain about a commuter journey where their train is "always two minutes late" and other such nonsense.

I travel FC on occasion and enjoy the experience. I do so when the fare is right, and when the benefits are worthwhile. In response to EssexGonzo, I do expect more than just a bigger seat for my money, although the comfort and space is a huge incentive to upgrade without a shadow of a doubt. I would expect some other enhancement or complimentary offer, even just a cup of tea and a biscuit. I do have realistic expectations about what can be achieved on a train, and I'm not expecting or looking for a Michelin star experience. At the end of the day, if I don't think the fare for FC travel matches the experience on offer, I'll pay for a standard class ticket and have no complaints. I have never paid for FC on Scotrail, where the fares do not match what I'd expect to pay for the experience. But I'll always actively consider a FC ticket on East Coast if the price is right, where the FC offer is generally worthwhile assuming you can find a good fare.

 

[WestCoast]

The question is: Why is this board and many of its members obsessed with first class travel?

My view is that many of the posters here lack the maturity and emotional intelligence to understand that first class travel, especially discounted first class travel, is a privilege and not the norm. Because they travel first class on a regular basis they lack exposure to and fail to understand the realities of life for the majority of railway passengers in this country.

Discuss

I wouldn't necessarily agree that discounted first class travel is a privilege, but a simple case of the free market at work. Those that have the flexibility to fill seats on a route and at a time the TOC wants will of course profit from the discounts. If I do travel "InterCity", then I mostly travel with Virgin West Coast and as we all know the 390s have spare capacity in First Class at (what they deem) off-peak times.

There are affordable First advances on many of VWCs off-peak services that are open to all and additionally anyone can upgrade for £10/£15 at the weekend (but you don't receive the full package). I feel the railcard debate could be applied to all journeys/tickets, rather than just limited to First Class. I'm a YP railcard user and don't often travel first class even on VWC simply because I usually can't plan far in advance.
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Why are people "obsessed" with FC travel? I don't think they are on here, TBH.

As has been said by mojo already, people in general are often more interested in FC travel than standard, and if you look at aviation trip reports you'll see a preference for the premium products. People would rather read about a FC Emirates trip to Australia (which is something I'm probably never going to afford) than a Ryanair jaunt to Stansted (which most people can afford, and is much less interesting to the reader). Likewise, I could post a trip report about a trip from Livingston North to Edinburgh on a 334, which will be much less interesting than a First Class report for the onward journey to London. There's more to discuss, and there's a bit of intrigue seeing what the extra money gets you without actually having to pay for it yourself. (Maybe not an entirely fair comparison as no FC operator on the railways offers anything close to what Emirates does, but you get the general idea).

I would also agree. This forum seems generally rather modest - a cup of a tea and a biscuit is hardly what I'd call extravagance. However, on the aviation forums you do often get the impression some of the users are far more concerned with what brand of champagne will be served rather than the actual experience of flight. Then again they've paid thousands for it. When reading those reports you do often get a sense of "how the other half live". At least I can identify with first class experiences on the UK rail network.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You currently have a job? Well that seems like privileged to me at present! Does that last forever? And yet I'm the one in First Class and you're the one moaning about not being there. What does that tell you?

OK, honest question here. On the basis of what you've posted above can I assume that you are not currently employed? Or for that matter that you are no longer a student? In which case how are you managing to afford First Class tickets, even if it is cheap offers from the TOC's and with your Rail Card discount on top. In fact the same question could be asked for train travel in Standard Class. One wonders whether you will continue to be able to make all these First Class journeys once you are too old for the Rail Card that you currently hold.

 

[Darandio]

You currently have a job? Well that seems like privileged to me at present! Does that last forever? And yet I'm the one in First Class and you're the one moaning about not being there. What does that tell you?

Not much without further information.

Either you get a hell of a lot more in benefits than everyone else, or you still live at home and therefore your benefits are effectively disposable income.

If the latter, you really haven't any place telling working folk with families that they are out of touch with the real world.

 

[Minilad]

It's amazing how far playing the system can get you though

 

[keppoch69]

This kind of discussion has a feeling of the 1970's about it. Perhaps a subject which was used on Terry & June, or The Good Life perhaps?
If one may suggest, does it not come down to personal choice and/or personal finances whether or not a person travels first or second class? The socialists who can afford to, but their "values", do not allow them to travel first, may always use the second class carriage(s). Or indeed, use the third class option, which is the public omnibus.
It will be a slippery slope if the freedom of choice is taken away and we are all lumped in "together".

 

[St Rollox]

First Class is the biz.

 

[Starmill]

It's amazing how far playing the system can get you though

You can do loads. Your employers are one of the best at playing the other two parties in the market (the customer and the Government) to their advantage. It just so happens that there are people around here who are nearly as good at playing the other two as they are. Many of them are much better than me though.

Since privatisation the Government have expressed a very weak position and it wouldn't take much customer savvy to put oneself ahead of them! Fortunately, it looks like that's slowly changing.

 

[yorksrob]

I like to bring up what an execrable rip-off the majority of Standard walk-up tickets are. Unfortunately, I can't without receiving abuse about it from certain other members, which bores me. So I just content myself instead by going around doing all the travel I like while not paying the insane-o-fares they like to ask for, and that members here (high among their ranks, 'how-much-extra-do-you-want-to-pay-not-to-ride-a-cattle-truck' DarloRich, I might add!) usually try to justify.

Keep battling away Starmill. I've never understood myself, why on journeys in the North of England which don't even have off-peak fares, let alone cheap advance, PTE subsidies or first class, we're supposed to cough up extortionate fares to travel on a Merseyrail pacer
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Terry & June, or The Good Life perhaps?

More likely Reggie Perrin, since he used to spend a lot of time on the train, as I recall

 

[ainsworth74]

Keep battling away Starmill. I've never understood myself, why on journeys in the North of England which don't even have off-peak fares, let alone cheap advance, PTE subsidies or first class, we're supposed to cough up extortionate fares to travel on a Merseyrail pacer

Because we should be grateful that we have a railway at all dontcha know! :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

Because we should be grateful that we have a railway at all dontcha know! :roll:

If I had a pound for every time I heard that I could replace the fleet myself

 

[RichmondCommu]

It's amazing how far playing the system can get you though

I concur however you're still having to buy a train ticket and if you're out and about several times a month that will all start to add up even if you're buying Standard Class tickets.
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Not much without further information.

Either you get a hell of a lot more in benefits than everyone else, or you still live at home and therefore your benefits are effectively disposable income.

If the latter, you really haven't any place telling working folk with families that they are out of touch with the real world.

Just what I was thinking! Life is of course much easier if you're living at home and not paying any board!

 

[Starmill]

OK, honest question here. On the basis of what you've posted above can I assume that you are not currently employed? Or for that matter that you are no longer a student? In which case how are you managing to afford First Class tickets, even if it is cheap offers from the TOC's and with your Rail Card discount on top. In fact the same question could be asked for train travel in Standard Class. One wonders whether you will continue to be able to make all these First Class journeys once you are too old for the Rail Card that you currently hold.

Quite the number of questions based on assumptions there eh Mr Commuter. So many, in fact, and most of them based on basically no evidence that I'll leave you to just assume the answers to them as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

Okay I think that's enough we're getting somewhat off the topic here so how about we go back towards discussing the bias or otherwise of this forum in regards to first class travel.

 

[Starmill]

Not much without further information.

Either you get a hell of a lot more in benefits than everyone else, or you still live at home and therefore your benefits are effectively disposable income.

If the latter, you really haven't any place telling working folk with families that they are out of touch with the real world.

This isn't a conversation about benefits or class warfare. It's about knowing a market and being a shrewd consumer.

I know your type who likes to lecture about benefits and 'hard-working' people. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

More likely Reggie Perrin, since he used to spend a lot of time on the train, as I recall

Was it always the same minutes late stated by Reggie, but with a different reason for lateness?
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This isn't a conversation about benefits or class warfare.

There are times, when reading certain emotive threads on this website, especially those that also carry a link to a statement made by a certain personage who shall be nameless, that is always couched in inclusive language terms seemingly harking back a century ago and parodied so well by Peter Sellers in his portrayal of Fred Kite in the 1960 Boulting Brothers produced film "I'm All Right, Jack", that I do wonder if this actually is the case.

 

[yorksrob]

Was it always the same minutes late stated by Reggie, but with a different reason for lateness?
.

I think there may have been quite a range of outlandish reasons though I can't be sure as it's a while since I've seen it. I remember noting that the Mk 1 compartment he always travelled in had incorrect moquette for the Southern Region though

 

[DarloRich]

I will come back to this thread when i have more time but there are two issues i want to pick up:

1) Please point to my posts where I criticise either first class provision in general or those who exercise their choice to travel in first class. I do not. I criticise the way they broadcast their "success" but not their choice to travel.

I liked my first class experiences on the times i have used first class and would not like to see the option to use first class removed.

2) First class is not a privilege? Of course it is! You are paying extra for the privilege of a better seat, a more pleasant environment, a different ambiance, free wifi, free refreshments, better service, more leg room, a better view, less crowds etc etc
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Was it always the same minutes late stated by Reggie, but with a different reason for lateness?

Was he not always 11 minutes late due to X? ( X changing every week)

 

[47271]

There's a website for everything, here's the first series alone, just search 'Reggie Perrin 11 minutes late'

Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, staff difficulties, Hampton Wick."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, signal failure at Vauxhall."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, staff shortages, Nine Elms."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, derailment of container truck, Raynes Park."
Ep.1 "Eleven minutes late, seasonal manpower shortages, Clapham Junction."
Ep.2 "Eleven minutes late, defective junction box, New Malden."
Ep.4 "Eleven minutes late, overheated axle at Berrylands."
Ep.4 "Eleven minutes late, defective axle at Wandsworth."
Ep.5 "Eleven minutes late, somebody had stolen the lines at Surbiton."

 

[radamfi]

If I had to complain about something about First Class discussion on here, it would be the "obsession" that you should get free refreshments as part of the ticket. Personally, I don't want free refreshments and would rather pay less for the ticket and get a nice, wide seat. If I want refreshments, I can pay for it. I think the best compromise is what you get on German ICE trains where the conductor comes around regularly and asks you if you want to buy a drink and he will bring it to your seat.

First Class is a lot more accessible on other European railways because the premium is charged on a sensibly priced second class ticket. Whereas in the UK, unless you get an Advance, you often have to pay the premium on top of an already extortionate "full fare" ticket.

 

[RAPC]

1) Please point to my posts where I criticise either first class provision in general or those who exercise their choice to travel in first class. I do not. I criticise the way they broadcast their "success" but not their choice to travel.

Your meaning may have been to criticise the way they broadcast their "success", but that is not what you said:

"My view is that many of the posters here lack the maturity and emotional intelligence to understand that first class travel, especially discounted first class travel, is a privilege and not the norm. Because they travel first class on a regular basis they lack exposure to and fail to understand the realities of life for the majority of railway passengers in this country."

The above reads far more (to me at least) like a criticism of many (not some, but a large number - rather insulting, no?) on the forum who travel first class who you are declaring to be lacking in maturity and emotional intelligence. Perhaps your original post doesn't reflect what you meant. If it doesn't, then that is possibly why some of the feedback has been as it has in this thread.

2) First class is not a privilege? Of course it is! You are paying extra for the privilege of a better seat, a more pleasant environment, a different ambiance, free wifi, free refreshments, better service, more leg room, a better view, less crowds etc etc

As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe that it is. It is a choice in the context of the capitalist society we live in. Anyone can pay to be in first class, so there is no exclusion beyond paying for a service in the same way that you have the choice to pay for standard class.

By the way, not trying to have a go. Just an alternative view I am trying to articulate, possibly poorly!