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Rails on the tracks

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9007pinza

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I am always very surprised to see the amount of rail left on the side of the track, or indeed, in-between the tracks. It seems to un-secured, randomly placed and at times seems to be very close the running rails themselves. Do these move about with the passing of trains?. Has there ever been a derail incident due to the moving?
Are these old tracks?, just waiting to be collected at an appropriate time?. I have heard. whether true of false. that they are laid there to be `weathered` before use.
 
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Snow1964

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New rail will be delivered, in very long lengths, usually between the tracks because that is the way it comes off the delivery trains. Newly rolled steel is fairly flexible.

Old rail gets harder by impact of trains and stresses from temperature changes, therefore cannot be loaded in long lengths as won’t bend. It will inevitably be cut into short lengths for collection. But very little urgency to do this, and it laying around for few years is not uncommon.

What there shouldn’t be (but some engineering crews have been known to do), is track dumped on walkways and cess paths.

There will also be strategic spares of special parts on busy lines, junction components and 2 pieces with an insulated joiner etc. These are normally stacked on sleeper offcuts. And are to enable quick repairs on busy sections (in theory)
 
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pdeaves

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Do these move about with the passing of trains?.
You might be surprised how heavy things are and are thus unlikely to move without deliberate human intention.
Has there ever been a derail incident due to the moving?
There has been at least one incident of a train hitting a bit of rail but that had been left incorrectly (rather than unintentionally moving).
 

Bald Rick

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A lot of what you see out there is spare rail for installation when a defect arises.

This time of year will have more out there than normal, as the engineering work programme picks up as of last week, and the rail drops for that work will have been done over the last 6 weeks or so. And with this weekend’s work largely postponed, there will be even more.
 

Boodiggy

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You might be surprised how heavy things are and are thus unlikely to move without deliberate human intention.

There has been at least one incident of a train hitting a bit of rail but that had been left incorrectly (rather than unintentionally moving).
You would be surprised how much CWR moves!
 

sw1ller

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If anyones been between shotton and bidston lately, the old track that’s just been replaced has just been thrown in the bushes fully intact with sleepers still attached. I’m gonna guess it’ll be there forever. Looks awful.
 

alxndr

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Rail placed in the 4ft does move, but only along the sleepers, usually in the direction of predominant traffic. It moves with a combination of the vibrations from the trains and with the cycle of temperatures causing expansion and contraction.

It can be surprisingly quick (although still over the course of weeks and months) and has been known to cause damage to equipment placed in the 4ft.
 

Trog

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Old rail gets harder by impact of trains and stresses from temperature changes, therefore cannot be loaded in long lengths as won’t bend.
Odd as the BR Perch CWR trains were designed to be able to lift rail with the idea of taking it away for use as serviceable on quieter lines. The trouble was that there were not enough of them and they were usually fully employed delivering new rail.

CWR old or new bends so much that you would think it was made of rubber.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Rail placed in the 4ft does move, but only along the sleepers, usually in the direction of predominant traffic. It moves with a combination of the vibrations from the trains and with the cycle of temperatures causing expansion and contraction.

It can be surprisingly quick (although still over the course of weeks and months) and has been known to cause damage to equipment placed in the 4ft.

I must admit that my impression was that CWR usually moves in the opposite direction to the traffic on reasonably level track, although that may perhaps depend on the type of vibrations caused by the stock used on the line concerned. Certainly I have seen 200yard long rails weighing about ten tons that have moved sixty or a hundred feet along the track, and they move with a lot of power. Any TPWS boot scraper for example that gets in the way will be shoved aside, and I have found a rail that had cut a one inch deep trench through the top of a softwood sleeper that stood in its way.
 
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alxndr

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I must admit that my impression was that CWR usually moves in the opposite direction to the traffic on reasonably level track, although that may perhaps depend on the type of vibrations caused by the stock used on the line concerned.
I've definitely always found it to be in the direction of traffic, as with most things, e.g. the old wooden track keys for bullhead.
Certainly I have seen 200yard long rails weighing about ten tons that have moved sixty or a hundred feet along the track, and they move with a lot of power. Any TPWS boot scraper for example that gets in the way will be shoved aside, and I have found a rail that had cut a one inch deep trench through the top of a softwood sleeper that stood in its way.
I've seen a few smashed TPWS grids (bootscraper is a nickname I'd not heard before, usually get waffles or toastrack), plenty of cables, and one bit of rail that would get reported as heading for a level crossing every few months. I don't think the crossing keeper ever let it get to the crossing to find out which would win that battle.
 

LiftFan

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I have seen occurrences of scrap rail being left in the 4 foot, and having it play havoc with the old Aster track circuits. Can be a pain in the neck sometimes, although not as much as when they dump it without looking and flatten our cables...
 

NoRoute

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I am always very surprised to see the amount of rail left on the side of the track, or indeed, in-between the tracks. It seems to un-secured, randomly placed and at times seems to be very close the running rails themselves.

I agree and I wonder how this is still an acceptable practice in the railway industry.

Does Network Rail have a risk assessment for leaving unsecured and unmanaged materials lying along the tracks of an operational railway?
 

Trog

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........ although not as much as when they dump it without looking and flatten our cables...

A Supervisor I worked with years ago needed to move a pair of 600' rails a couple of miles. So he borrowed one of the cables used to pull rails off the back of the old single bolster CWR trains. Fitted the shackles to the holes blown in the rail ends, looped the cable over the draw hook of a locomotive and off they went. Several track circuits mysteriously failed that night due to cable damage, but it was not a problem as the S&T did not figure out what had happened, and I think the damage was blamed on an unknown something hanging from a wagon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I agree and I wonder how this is still an acceptable practice in the railway industry.

Does Network Rail have a risk assessment for leaving unsecured and unmanaged materials lying along the tracks of an operational railway?

Good practice particularly in hot weather is to put a few sand bags full of ballast between the running rails and the new ones laid in the 4'.
Keeps the new rails out of the way in the middle of the 4' and also stops them from causing embarrassment by dropping track circuits.
 
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33101

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You might be surprised how heavy things are and are thus unlikely to move without deliberate human intention.

There has been at least one incident of a train hitting a bit of rail but that had been left incorrectly (rather than unintentionally moving).

Wasn't 50025's demise down to hitting a piece of rail that some yobs had somehow managed to intentionally leave incorrectly in it's path? Long lengths of CWR, whilst visibly untidy would trouble me less than short segments of rail/equipment left near to the line.
 

edwin_m

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There was an incident a few years ago when the end of a piece of CWR got itself over the running rail and a passing train flipped the whole length over to the other side. Unfortunately I can't remember where it was so can't search a report to link. But it could have been a lot worse had things been slightly different.
 

dan4291

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Funnily enough just yesterday there was an issue at Low Fell near Newcastle with a piece of scrap rail that had to be moved as it was coming into contact with passing trains. Trains had to run on the bi-directional Up line towards Newcastle while the Down line was blocked and the scrap rail was moved over.
 

snowball

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There was an incident a few years ago when the end of a piece of CWR got itself over the running rail and a passing train flipped the whole length over to the other side. Unfortunately I can't remember where it was so can't search a report to link. But it could have been a lot worse had things been slightly different.
Not sure whether this is the same case, but wasn't there a case on the Highland main line where a train encountered a length of rail which was mostly in the four-foot, but with one end lying across one of the running rails?
 

Trog

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Years ago I found a length of CWR lying in the six foot that had moved so that the end of it was taking the hot shoes off passing DC equipped units. As this was an AC line this was having no immediate effect.

So as a responsible member of the P-Way I phoned up the relaying office straight away and suggested that they got a gang down there pronto to fix the problem. Before the TOC noticed that they currently had a hot shoe problem and investigated. I then picked up all the broken hot shoes seven or eight of them and disposed of the evidence behind a conveniently sited bush.
 

edwin_m

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Not sure whether this is the same case, but wasn't there a case on the Highland main line where a train encountered a length of rail which was mostly in the four-foot, but with one end lying across one of the running rails?

Thanks, that's the one I was thinking of.

The rail had been left between the two running rails (in the four-foot) with one end resting on the left-hand rail of the up line, following an overnight engineering possession at Smithton, near Cradlehall, a short distance south of Inverness.
The train pushed the whole length of rail from the four-foot into the cess (beside the line) but did not derail. Had circumstances been slightly different there is little doubt that the impact from the rail could have derailed the train, resulting in a far more serious accident.
So the rail was actually in the wrong place due to having been put there incorrectly rather than having moved. But it shows what might happen if movement was allowed to continue for long enough.
 

alf

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Wasn't 50025's demise down to hitting a piece of rail that some yobs had somehow managed to intentionally leave incorrectly in it's path? Long lengths of CWR, whilst visibly untidy would trouble me less than short segments of rail/equipment left near to the line.

It was at West Ealing in the 1970s. No one was arrested. No one was charged.

The piece of rail that derailed the passenger train was stored in the BT police yard on the upside at Victoria. It may still be there.

Years later a senior BT policeman told a friend of mine that they investigated the theory that early in the morning the rail had bounced off a PW train returning from a work site with spent ballast & scrap rail but BR were not enthusiastic about that line of inquiry.
 
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Cowley

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It was at West Ealing in the 1970s. No one was arrested. No one was charged.

It was in 1989. There’s a recent thread on it here:

 

alxndr

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So the rail was actually in the wrong place due to having been put there incorrectly rather than having moved. But it shows what might happen if movement was allowed to continue for long enough.
Never say never but it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for a length of rail creeping on its own to get angled up in such a manner that it ends up on the head of the rail.
 

Annetts key

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You would be surprised how much CWR moves!
It definitely moves. Keep in mind that sometimes CWR/LWR lengths get left in the four foot for many years, and over this period of time, moving a few mm per week or more can soon add up.

If anyones been between shotton and bidston lately, the old track that’s just been replaced has just been thrown in the bushes fully intact with sleepers still attached. I’m gonna guess it’ll be there forever. Looks awful.
Not the only time this has happened. And definitely will not be the last. Unfortunately there are various reasons. The T3 occupation time (the time the line is closed for engineering work) is limited, so the renewal work takes priority over scrap recovery. Scrap recovery is not part of the contract with the contractor used. The contractor did not have a robust work plan, so scrap recovery is the easiest item to drop…

Sometimes scrap rail is left because the rail change was an emergency job (defect detected, so high priority to change the rail as not doing so means line closure or emergency speed restriction), as not a planned (as in weeks in advance) job, no time or resources to always remove the old rail.

Sometimes the occupation to remove the scrap rail is used for higher priority work, such as dealing with an emergency rail change or other defect. So the scrap stays where it is…

Some of the scrap rail by the lineside (also known as the cess) has been there for tens of years.

Rail placed in the 4ft does move, but only along the sleepers, usually in the direction of predominant traffic. It moves with a combination of the vibrations from the trains and with the cycle of temperatures causing expansion and contraction.

It can be surprisingly quick (although still over the course of weeks and months) and has been known to cause damage to equipment placed in the 4ft.
Rail in the four foot, or on the sleeper ends, can, and does damage S&T cables and equipment.

CWR old or new bends so much that you would think it was made of rubber.
Lay people (including most railway employees outside the civil engineering/ P.way sections) don’t appreciate how bendy mild steel rail actually is when it’s being moved by machines.

I must admit that my impression was that CWR usually moves in the opposite direction to the traffic on reasonably level track, although that may perhaps depend on the type of vibrations caused by the stock used on the line concerned. Certainly I have seen 200yard long rails weighing about ten tons that have moved sixty or a hundred feet along the track, and they move with a lot of power. Any TPWS boot scraper for example that gets in the way will be shoved aside, and I have found a rail that had cut a one inch deep trench through the top of a softwood sleeper that stood in its way.

I've definitely always found it to be in the direction of traffic, as with most things, e.g. the old wooden track keys for bullhead.

I've seen a few smashed TPWS grids (bootscraper is a nickname I'd not heard before, usually get waffles or toastrack), plenty of cables, and one bit of rail that would get reported as heading for a level crossing every few months. I don't think the crossing keeper ever let it get to the crossing to find out which would win that battle.

My experience is that on level track, CWR/LWR tends to travel in the direction of travel of the trains (assuming it’s a unidirectional line).

Scrap or new rails that move either catch and stretch (and then break) S&T (signalling equipment) cables, or scrape over the top and crush them.

And yes, a TPWS track grid / aerial (the most often nickname is toast rack, followed by trampoline) are also casualties of rails that move. At Patchway junction, a length of CWR/LWR has damaged the same TPWS (well, not really the same as we keep having to replace the broken parts) at least twice, and been reported many other times over the course of at least four years. Each time a bit more was cut off the end of the rail, as the local P.Way had no means of moving the whole length of the rail. It may even still be there…

Rails in the four foot also threaten AWS equipment, ATP equipment and cables, and axle counter heads.

I have seen occurrences of scrap rail being left in the 4 foot, and having it play havoc with the old Aster track circuits. Can be a pain in the neck sometimes, although not as much as when they dump it without looking and flatten our cables...
Best one I had, was when a new rail was being unloaded off a TRAMM (rail engineering vehicle), they dropped it on top of an ASTER tuning unit, which lost out big time. When we got there, it had been smashed to smithereens…

Unbelievably, some years later, another rail renewal and somehow the P.Way had smashed another ASTER unit. I don’t think they were using a TRAMM that time though.

Here’s a picture of what an ASTER trackside unit looks like:
614FB14B-827F-4A33-B20B-8A9EE21873E3.jpeg


Sorry to be a pain, but what's the 'four foot'?
The modern definition is: the bit between the running rails which is the only practical place to walk, due to everywhere else being either covered with weeds, brambles, buddleia bushes, small trees, or scrap rail/sleepers/cable/you name it…

Name derived from the gauge in imperial of 4 feet 8½ inches.
 
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LiftFan

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The modern definition is: the bit between the running rails which is the only practical place to walk, due to everywhere else being either covered with weeds, brambles, buddleia bushes, small trees, or scrap rail/sleepers/cable/you name it…
Even then, these days our pway lot seem to haphazardly dump the ballast so even the 4 foot is horrible to walk in.
 
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