Railcards users to face additional checks when buying tickets

[yorksrob]

I don't think promoting the idea of not needing to apply in advance of a discount is remotely the same as giving everybody a discount. There will still be criteria, like being aged 16-30 for example, so it will still be targetted.

Some railcards already have peak restrictions, no need for that to change.

Why give someone a free discount. Make people pay up front for one. Plus the targeted nature of railcards is the problem. Everyone should have the opportunity of buying a discount, as is the case in sensible countries.

You could do this already with a checkbox for UK citizen or not; though worth noting the current system of Railcards is already open to tourists anyway so again, no need for change per se.

I'm not sure means-testing rail fares is desirable nor do I think the cost of administering such a means-testing system (with or without an actual card) would generate a surplus. For starters the UK doesn't even track wealth, only income, so we wouldn't be taxing the wealthy more, many of whom actually pay low levels of income tax. A lot of means-testing schemes don't save the money it costs to administer. It may do for rail, but I wouldn't be so sure. If we were to adopt it though, yes we'd need an individual card for everybody (or everybody who wants a non-wealth discount) for that.

Neither of which I'm suggesting. A tourist would have the same opportunity to buy a national railcard - but likely find it not worth it.

Knowing that the wealthy might not bother with a railcard is not the same as means-testing for it - Although a means tested railcard is probably no more outlandish than any of the eligibilities we have now. Probably less regressive than some.

 

[MrJeeves]

Asking for the last name and expiry date reduces the likelihood of a collision quite a lot, but it still doesn't negate it entirely. Then again, digital Railcard numbers roll over eventually too, so noone is safe!

What is more concerning is that you have to trust that names have been recorded correctly.

I note that the documentation has a max name length of 50, but the barcodes can't hold that much, can they? They're capped to 15 characters. They can't even hold anything except uppercase alphabetic characters and numbers, so what about people with diacritics in their name?

Some retailers will mangle those down into the latin equivalents for the barcode, others will reject them, and I wouldn't be surprised if some just drop them entirely or something.

 

[redreni]

Why give someone a free discount. Make people pay up front for one. Plus the targeted nature of railcards is the problem. Everyone should have the opportunity of buying a discount, as is the case in sensible countries.

Ah, yes, identify those people who don't have an extra £35 spare when they're going on a trip, and reserve the highest prices for them. How brilliantly regressive.

Railcard discounts are not all given for commercial reasons. They're often given for social reasons.

 

[styles]

Why give someone a free discount. Make people pay up front for one. Plus the targeted nature of railcards is the problem. Everyone should have the opportunity of buying a discount, as is the case in sensible countries.

Why not give people entitled to a discount, a discount? My local pub doesn't require purchasing a Pensioners Discount Card to get a fiver off their Sunday lunch. It's hardly an unusual concept.

Neither of which I'm suggesting. A tourist would have the same opportunity to buy a national railcard - but likely find it not worth it.

Like the same situation then, so it's not an argument in favour of keeping railcards.

Knowing that the wealthy might not bother with a railcard is not the same as means-testing for it - Although a means tested railcard is probably no more outlandish than any of the eligibilities we have now. Probably less regressive than some.

How do you propose to implement a levy on "- rich people - who are wealthy enough not to be concerned by rail fares.", without means-testing wealth?

 

[Adam Williams]

Just make it a requirement to submit a "Tax year overview" for the most recent tax year at the point of issuing a journey search, then - combined with removing all the walk-up tickets - the industry can dynamically price the fares according to the ability to pay /s

 

[styles]

Just make it a requirement to submit a "Tax year overview" for the most recent tax year at the point of issuing a journey search, then - combined with removing all the walk-up tickets - the industry can dynamically price the fares according to the ability to pay /s

Still wouldn't cover wealth mate, only net adjusted taxable income within a given tax year.

We'll need a wealth database, which we'll give to Crapita for £50bn and it'll over-run by 10 years.

 

[sheff1]

If you read my posts you will see me repeatedly suggest that post dating railcards ought to be possible, so you've misconstrued the meaning of "active" here.

Yes I had seen your posts, but to me a railcard valid from 1 Apr 2026 is not active on 18 Mar 2026, so is not active if if a ticket is purchased then. It appears your definition of active is different to mine

 

[Merle Haggard]

Just make it a requirement to submit a "Tax year overview" for the most recent tax year at the point of issuing a journey search, then - combined with removing all the walk-up tickets - the industry can dynamically price the fares according to the ability to pay /s

Just to point out the the original BR policy was to create railcards for every market segment apart from the Business Traveller, who was regarded as able to pay high fares - either being wealthy or on business expenses. Hence the restriction on peak time travel, return journey in the same weekday week as outward, etc on railcards.

It was suggested years ago by some wag that all this could be simplified and have the same result by halving rail fares, abolishing all existing railcards and issuing a 'Businessmen's Railcard', the holder of which would pay double.

 

[sheff1]

I still advocate for ditching most Railcards entirely, but keeping the discount, so to get the 16-25 discount you should show your ID which shows yours 16-25 for example.

That would certainly work for age related discounts and is already what happens in more enlightened countries.

And those that buy on phones tend to be regular users.

Judging by the number of people with tickets on phones who don't know how to scan through ticket barriers, or even realise that they have to scan, I doubt they are as regulars would know what to do.

 

[Cell2025]

And those that buy on phones tend to be regular users.

The railway should be encouraging occasional users, and that doesn't mean jumping through hoops to get a railcard, and make it difficult to try and buy cheapest (even if split) ticket at station. TVMs don't sell railcards. They don't sell split tickets. Ticket office hours are sparse on non existent at many of the networks 2500 stations.

Thats why as majority of off peak fares are with railcards, should dump the faff of railcards, and just price the off peak close to railcard price. It's not as if people with railcards suddenly travel more, they do it to save money, same reason why I have a Tesco club card, not because it makes me use Tesco more. It just saves money when happen to be using it anyway.

Personally eligibility for the Senior Railcard has led to a significant increase in travel. It started slowly, but trips that I thought were financially beyond me, such as trips to London, suddenly look more reasonable. Rail travel is not a linear transaction. For the leisure market there is untapped potential, and I have taken far more journeys in the time since I qualified and certainly spent more money than I would have, just less per actual trip (of course).

I have also decided to walk a bit further to get a train than hop on a bus as it's now a shade under double for a bus compared to a discounted rail ticket (£5 return compared to £2.70).

It's not like I have a pre-determined budget every year for rail travel. I am lucky enough to have spare cash, so if I perceive a journey to be good value I am more likely to take it than I would have been without the discount. Surely I am by no means alone in this?

 

[35B]

Personally eligibility for the Senior Railcard has led to a significant increase in travel. It started slowly, but trips that I thought were financially beyond me, such as trips to London, suddenly look more reasonable. Rail travel is not a linear transaction. For the leisure market there is untapped potential, and I have taken far more journeys in the time since I qualified and certainly spent more money than I would have, just less per actual trip (of course).

I have also decided to walk a bit further to get a train than hop on a bus as it's now a shade under double for a bus compared to a discounted rail ticket (£5 compared to £2.70).

It's not like I have a pre-determined budget every year for rail travel. I am lucky enough to have spare cash, so if I perceive a journey to be good value I am more likely to take it than I would have been without the discount. Surely I am by no means alone in this?

You’re not. It’s an absolutely normal behaviour for a discretionary purchase, where familiarity and a sense of value encourages repeat business.

 

[Cell2025]

Just make it a requirement to submit a "Tax year overview" for the most recent tax year at the point of issuing a journey search, then - combined with removing all the walk-up tickets - the industry can dynamically price the fares according to the ability to pay /s

Apart from this being patently ludicrous in principle (let's apply it to all purchases and in the end the rich will have no money at all...) HMRC can't remotely do the job that they are asked to now, let alone create a joined up system for penalising richer travellers.

File with all the other batty ideas which we've seen over the decades

 

[35B]

Apart from this being patently ludicrous in principle (let's apply it to all purchases and in the end the rich will have no money at all...) HMRC can't remotely do the job that they are asked to now, let alone create a joined up system for penalising richer travellers.

File with all the other batty ideas which we've seen over the decades

Never mind principle; one year’s tax return doesn’t necessarily demonstrate the following years ability to pay.

 

[Cell2025]

You’re not. It’s an absolutely normal behaviour for a discretionary purchase, where familiarity and a sense of value encourages repeat business.

I did wonder! A number of my friends act in exactly the same way. In fact we travel more together when in the past we might not have bothered, or where those of us who hadn't yet qualified for the SRC wouldn't have gone and left the others to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2026 ==

Never mind principle; one year’s tax return doesn’t necessarily demonstrate the following years ability to pay.

It is, as I said, a batty idea at every level.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Railcards have a marketing benefit - it's a sunk cost, a bit like the way owning a car is. If you have paid a sum (even a small sum) for the discount you're more likely to use it and travel more to get best value from the discount.

 

[yorksrob]

Ah, yes, identify those people who don't have an extra £35 spare when they're going on a trip, and reserve the highest prices for them. How brilliantly regressive.

Railcard discounts are not all given for commercial reasons. They're often given for social reasons.

They're not "given". They're sold.

 

[styles]

Railcards have a marketing benefit - it's a sunk cost, a bit like the way owning a car is. If you have paid a sum (even a small sum) for the discount you're more likely to use it and travel more to get best value from the discount.

Conversely, people unaware of certain railcards (like the Two Together Railcard) are put off by their fares from Edinburgh-London being £200 when they could actually be £135.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Railcard discounts are not all given for commercial reasons. They're often given for social reasons.

Sometimes they are. However what they largely are is a mechanism of price differentiation and the use of sunk cost marketing. Typically middle aged people can afford to pay more so they aren't offered the discount, whereas retirees and young people aren't as well off and can't. Though Germany and Switzerland offers Railcards for middle-agers too, just at a much higher sunk cost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2026 ==

Conversely, people unaware of certain railcards (like the Two Together Railcard) are put off by their fares from Edinburgh-London being £200 when they could actually be £135.

That's just poor marketing.

 

[styles]

That's just poor marketing.

Maybe it is.

But it would be a lot simpler if the booking engine just did the leg work, instead of this passenger adversarial railcard system where you just have to happen to know that a Two Together Railcard exists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe it is.

But it would be a lot simpler if the booking engine just did the leg work, instead of this passenger adversarial railcard system where you just have to happen to know that a Two Together Railcard exists.

Knowing how Trainline likes to market Railcards I'm surprised it doesn't (and it indeed doesn't, I just tried) recommend the purchase of one where it would save money on a trip. Does accreditation perhaps not permit that?

 

[styles]

Knowing how Trainline likes to market Railcards I'm surprised it doesn't (and it indeed doesn't, I just tried) recommend the purchase of one where it would save money on a trip. Does accreditation perhaps not permit that?

I mean the prevalence and practices of third party systems is a whole other topic

 

[nanstallon]

Conversely you generate more business from not having an adversarial fares and discounts system. You also save money on the administration of the Railcards scheme, and don't have passengers penalised for Railcards being a couple of days out of date or not downloaded to a phone etc.

Quite. Railway fares are so complicated, and enforcement so aggressive as to be offputting. I find it easier to just jump in the car, although rail travel is better for the environment.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Yes. I wonder if the buying tickets in advance before it’s necessary to buy the railcard will be considered an edge case and filed in the too difficult pile, and quietly removed from something you will be able to do.

I wonder how easy it was to do that in pre internet days ref BR APEX tickets? Would ticket office staff happily sell you one on the verbal assurance you would purchase a railcard to commence on or before the date of travel if you didn’t have one when booking the APEX ticket?

Booking office staff wouldn’t normally sell you any railcard discounted tickets without seeing the actual railcard.

Back then, you needed the Railcard to buy the ticket. As a BR ticket clerk in the 80s, we were not allowed to sell advance dated tickets with a discount on the promise that a Railcard would be bought before travel. If you wanted to buy a discounted ticket, you needed to show an in date Railcard. If you wanted to buy a ticket for your gran and she had a Senior Railcard, you had to bring the Railcard and show it - and it had to be in date; no exceptions.

By the time the internet and self-service ticket machines that sold the full range of fares became a thing, the industry was privatised and adapting this model went into the 'too difficult' pile, hence the easements that tolerated Railcard sales online and at ticket machines without having to prove entitlement.

 

[sk688]

at Irish Rail TVMs when buying walk up tickets if purchasing a Young Adult discounted ticket you have to enter the first 6 digits of the Leap card which is a pretty good way to go about it imo

 

[WesternLancer]

Back then, you needed the Railcard to buy the ticket. As a BR ticket clerk in the 80s, we were not allowed to sell advance dated tickets with a discount on the promise that a Railcard would be bought before travel. If you wanted to buy a discounted ticket, you needed to show an in date Railcard. If you wanted to buy a ticket for your gran and she had a Senior Railcard, you had to bring the Railcard and show it - and it had to be in date; no exceptions.

By the time the internet and self-service ticket machines that sold the full range of fares became a thing, the industry was privatised and adapting this model went into the 'too difficult' pile, hence the easements that tolerated Railcard sales online and at ticket machines without having to prove entitlement.

Thanks. That sounds pretty cut and dried.

 

[Krokodil]

Never mind principle; one year’s tax return doesn’t necessarily demonstrate the following years ability to pay

And that the wealthiest people in the world (who admittedly are more likely to use their own helicopter than take the train) have next to nothing in taxable income anyway - their wealth came from capital gains and they've clever schemes for extracting liquidity tax-free

 

[Snow1964]

Quite. Railway fares are so complicated, and enforcement so aggressive as to be offputting. I find it easier to just jump in the car, although rail travel is better for the environment.

If it's better for environment depends where you live.

I can jump in my electric car, go to Bath and back for about 30p worth of overnight electricity, paying £4 for 2 hours parking = £4.30

Or I can take a 35 year noisy diesel turbo with smelly exhausts for £5.55 with railcard, £5.35 off peak from 09:52 train (off peak £8.10 without railcard), and yes it's priced with about 4% difference between peak and off peak which is just unnecessarily complicated for such a token difference

or take diesel bus £3 each way = £6

So here in Wiltshire very questionable if train is better for the environment, its not even priced to undercut taking car and paying for parking.

 

[talldave]

So, if we allow purchase/renewal of railcards up to 12 weeks ahead of their start date, have we mopped up most/all of the corner cases?

Of course, it would be useful if Railcards had a start date, expiry date and were scannable both optically and via NFC, but...this is the rail industry so maybe in 5-10 years???

 

[yorksrob]

Conversely, people unaware of certain railcards (like the Two Together Railcard) are put off by their fares from Edinburgh-London being £200 when they could actually be £135.

Just as people without recourse to a railcard are as well. Are you suggesting that any two people that rock up at the ticket office for the same journey should get a free discount as well ?

 

[styles]

Just as people without recourse to a railcard are as well. Are you suggesting that any two people that rock up at the ticket office for the same journey should get a free discount as well ?

Well yes, they're entitled to it. Much like I would expect a wheelchair user rocking up to a ticket office to be given a disabled passenger discount, or an elderly person to be given a senior passenger discount.

Advocating for anything other than that I believe to be anti-passenger, which the railway often currently is.

If you rock up to Waverley ticket office and ask to go to London and they knowingly sell you a £65 more expensive ticket than you need I believe to be pretty poor and the sign of a totally broken system.