Railcards, Rovers & Rangers: Should they be means tested?

[RichmondCommu]

The ticket is there to encourage discretionary travel, not essential travel. Rovers encourage a particularly whimsical form of travel, filling often empty trains, which would be expensive and impractical on separate tickets.

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I've not mentioned anything about essential travel in connection with Rovers. If someone is earning 40k a year with no significant out goings and no dependants why should they be given financial assistance for a day out riding around on trains?

 

[ainsworth74]

Instead money should be spent on reducing season tickets.

Considering that your proposal will cost more money in the administration and then lose money from reduced usage of the railways I'm honestly at a loss to work out how you think there would be any way of spending money on reducing season tickets?!?

 

[Starmill]

Means testing is both difficult and costly to administrate. Current examples of it produce generally relatively poor results. There is large scope for government failure. There are a variety of areas of society where it could be extended if it worked well, but the evidence (sadly) is that it is not working well.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Should I not be able to avail of £10 Ryanair tickets because I can afford £50 ones? Madness.

As far as I know Ryanair doesn't receive financial assistance from the Government which in my opinion makes things a bit different.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Considering that your proposal will cost more money in the administration and then lose money from reduced usage of the railways I'm honestly at a loss to work out how you think there would be any way of spending money on reducing season tickets?!?

In my opinion people would still use the train providing they have enough disposable income so the savings could in return reduce the cost of season tickets.

 

[Qwerty133]

The only railcard that there is any logic to means testing is the network railcard (although I'd personally prefer to see it scrapped altogether as tickets are no higher priced in the south east than any other area so it is yet another way in which the South East receives preferential treatment to the rest of the country).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Quite. Rovers are totally discretionary and offered because it is profitable to do so, essentially because they generate primarily enthusiast travel that would not otherwise occur. Were it not profitable, they would just be dropped.

Why should someones hobby be subsidised if they already have sufficient disposable income to enjoy that hobby? My wife and I enjoy weekends in the Lake District but I don't hold out for the prospect of the local authority giving the two of us vouchers towards the cost of a pair of walking boots.

 

[Starmill]

Because a rover (like a railcard) isn't a subsidy. It's a commercial tool to profit maximise in the short run. Surely someone of your experience can see this?

 

[RichmondCommu]

The only railcard that there is any logic to means testing is the network railcard (although I'd personally prefer to see it scrapped altogether as tickets are no higher priced in the south east than any other area so it is yet another way in which the South East receives preferential treatment to the rest of the country).

Get rid of the Network Card and you would only add to the already chronic traffic congestion.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Because a rover (like a railcard) isn't a subsidy. It's a commercial tool to profit maximise in the short run. Surely someone of your experience can see this?

Yes but why give them out to people who already have plenty of disposable income and who can already afford to travel?

 

[Qwerty133]

Why should someones hobby be subsidised if they already have sufficient disposable income to enjoy that hobby? My wife and I enjoy weekends in the Lake District but I don't hold out for the prospect of the local authority giving the two of us vouchers towards the cost of a pair of walking boots.

Many hobby offer discounts for regular or extended use. Bowling alleys for example tend to charge more for the first game than any subsequent games, outdoor adventure centres will often offer discounts to people participating in multiple activities and many coffee chains operate loyalty cards. Rovers are just a form of discount to encourage people to spend more time on board rather than travelling direct from A-B.

 

[Starmill]

Because that's what the train company has determined is profitable. Social welfare is not really in their interest, is it? I would love it if it were, but...

 

[Qwerty133]

Get rid of the Network Card and you would only add to the already chronic traffic congestion.

So people in the southeast wouldn't pay the higher fares 'if they had the disposable incomes', but the young in other parts of the country would?

 

[ainsworth74]

In my opinion people would still use the train providing they have enough disposable income so the savings could in return reduce the cost of season tickets.

Yes but will they use the train as much? Or are they more likely to drive? A family of four right now benefits from a Family & Friends railcard so, to take an example, if our family wants a day out in York from Middlesbrough right now it'll cost them £27.10 with a railcard. Assuming they no longer qualify that will jump to £47.70. That's a tank of petrol and parking. May as well drive and not fuss with the train at all at that point!

Also, what savings? You're reducing the fare box take not giving people money and you're adding costs by having to administer a means test!

I promise you there will be no money left over after this to offer a discount to commuters and lets not forget that season tickets themselves already offer a hefty discount on daily tickets! Lets use Peterborough to London Zones 1 - 6 (valid on any permitted route). Annual costs £8,120 or a daily price of £35 (assuming that someone gets 28 days Annual Leave and works five days per week). An Anytime Day Travelcard costs £119.50. So not a bad discount that our season ticket holder gets already.

 

[Starmill]

I do have to wonder if anyone actually pays £119.50 for a Peterborough travelcard out of their own pocket. For a 75 mile journey the price of that ticket is quite something.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In my opinion people would still use the train providing they have enough disposable income so the savings could in return reduce the cost of season tickets.

You seem fixated by the cost of season tickets.
I'd say they give a fantastic reduction on the cost of Anytime tickets, to people who create the overall cost/capacity of running a service.
You can hardly object if similar discounts are offered to different types of rail user to utilise the off-peak capacity that is parked up round London every day between the peaks.

 

[RichmondCommu]

So people in the southeast wouldn't pay the higher fares 'if they had the disposable incomes', but the young in other parts of the country would?

Rent payments are a lot higher down here but sadly in many cases wages are not.

 

[ainsworth74]

I do have to wonder if anyone actually pays £119.50 for a Peterborough travelcard out of their own pocket.

Yes possibly an extreme example (because wow that Anytime is expensive) it must be said!

 

[Starmill]

Rent payments are a lot higher down here but sadly in many cases wages are not.

I completely agree this is a problem that requires addressing. I'm just not sure the railway has a role to play in doing that.

 

[yorksrob]

For those that are employed you can only make a certain number of journeys before you start running out of free time. In which case they shouldn't be a priority. Instead money should be spent on reducing season tickets.

But season tickets encourage travel when the railway is already busy.

Plus, people on this forum are not particularly representative of the general public. Most working people have a lot of free time that isn't spent on rail outings !

 

[RichmondCommu]

You seem fixated by the cost of season tickets.
I'd say they give a fantastic reduction on the cost of Anytime tickets, to people who create the overall cost/capacity of running a service.
You can hardly object if similar discounts are offered to different types of rail user to utilise the off-peak capacity that is parked up round London every day between the peaks.

Try telling that to someone who has just paid out for their annual season ticket. That season ticket which gets people to work in order to keep a roof over their head.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I completely agree this is a problem that requires addressing. I'm just not sure the railway has a role to play in doing that.

However the railway reduces the cost of one essential outgoing if you are working shifts.

 

[Llanigraham]

For those that are employed you can only make a certain number of journeys before you start running out of free time. In which case they shouldn't be a priority. Instead money should be spent on reducing season tickets.

How are you going to administer that?

 

[Starmill]

I agree 100% that annual season tickets cost far too much. But if we are going to use government money, how are you going to pay to reduce the cost of them? I would support all of the following:

-increasing fuel duty
-increasing vehicle excise duty
-increasing air passenger duty
-introducing congestion charging in a number of UK cities with a plan to start the charge at a trivial level (say £2) and then increase it by CPI+3% (or something) every year.

Would you agree with those policies? I suspect many people would be unhappy with those ideas, making them unlikely.

 

[ainsworth74]

Try telling that to someone who has just paid out for their annual season ticket. That season ticket which gets people to work in order to keep a roof over their head.

You may not like it but the reality is that a season ticket is a discounted product. Often heavily so. Offered to the people that require the most expenditure in conveying them. It's seems whimsical to offer a discount, indeed in your view an increased discount, to them at the same time as cutting the discount offered to those that travel Off-Peak and therefore don't need anywhere near the resources to convey. Indeed by not getting the discount an argument could be made that they're subsidising the season ticket holders!

 

[AlterEgo]

I've not mentioned anything about essential travel in connection with Rovers. If someone is earning 40k a year with no significant out goings and no dependants why should they be given financial assistance for a day out riding around on trains?

Well if you don’t have discounted tickets then people won’t find it good value to ride on trains, and they won’t.

I fit into your demographic and there’s no way I’d pay for about forty or fifty First Anytime tickets instead of under £750 for a 14 day ALR. Have you any idea how expensive Rover-style travel is if you substitute an example itinerary with single and return fares?

If the ALR was abolished I simply wouldn’t travel, and that’s £750 less for the railways.

 

[Llanigraham]

Rent payments are a lot higher down here but sadly in many cases wages are not.

And?
That is irrelevant in connection with discouts on the railway.

And I presume that you wish to follow your ill-thoughtout arguements to ALL discount arrangements, no matter in what industry?

 

[theblackwatch]

Why should someone benefit from a highly discounted ticket when they can afford to buy an off peak ticket?

In that case, should supermarket offers also be means tested? Why should someone benefit from 2 packets of biscuits for the price of one, when they can afford to pay for both? Or how about similar with clothes?

Have you thought of writing to your local MP with your idea?

 

[RichmondCommu]

And?
That is irrelevant in connection with discouts on the railway.

The reduced cost of essential rail travel in the SE helps people pay for that other essential; a roof over their head.

 

[RichmondCommu]

In that case, should supermarket offers also be means tested? Why should someone benefit from 2 packets of biscuits for the price of one, when they can afford to pay for both? Or how about similar with clothes?

Have you thought of writing to your local MP with your idea?

Supermarkets don't receive financial assistance from the Government so the two examples are very different. I don't have much time for Zac Goldsmith so I tend not to bother him.