Railcard ticket problem

[Maggie_M]

RailUKforums.co.uk

Hallo - new member here! I am having problems with Transpennine Express.

A month ago I travelled with my husband from Edinburgh to Malton, which involved a change at York. We both have valid Senior Railcards (we’re in our mid seventies) and had booked split tickets: Edinburgh-York, York-Malton. Only after we’d set off from Edinburgh did I realise that I had left my railcard at home, however the ticket inspector didn’t ask for them. On the York-Malton train however he did and I had to explain. He was very helpful and though I had to buy another ticket he gave me a receipt (Travel Irregularity Notice) with printed instructions how to reclaim the cost. It includes a reference number and a link to Transpennine support.

Once we got home again three days later I tried following the instructions on the TP website support page, tpexpress.co.uk/drpusupport but couldn’t get anywhere on it as it doesn’t recognise the reference number on the receipt: TPETIR….. After wasting quite a lot of time trying, I gave up as it didn’t seem worth it for the sake of £5. However I have today (about three weeks after that journey) received a letter from them asking me to contact them via their website. But I can’t get anywhere as it doesn’t recognise the reference number!

I think I’ll have to take and print photos of the railcard and the Travel Irregularity Notice and send them by snail mail, but what a palaver. My OH will never let me forget it…



Maggie_M

I-Pad pw

 

[WesternLancer]

RailUKforums.co.uk

Hallo - new member here! I am having problems with Transpennine Express.

A month ago I travelled with my husband from Edinburgh to Malton, which involved a change at York. We both have valid Senior Railcards (we’re in our mid seventies) and had booked split tickets: Edinburgh-York, York-Malton. Only after we’d set off from Edinburgh did I realise that I had left my railcard at home, however the ticket inspector didn’t ask for them. On the York-Malton train however he did and I had to explain. He was very helpful and though I had to buy another ticket he gave me a receipt (Travel Irregularity Notice) with printed instructions how to reclaim the cost. It includes a reference number and a link to Transpennine support.

Once we got home again three days later I tried following the instructions on the TP website support page, tpexpress.co.uk/drpusupport but couldn’t get anywhere on it as it doesn’t recognise the reference number on the receipt: TPETIR….. After wasting quite a lot of time trying, I gave up as it didn’t seem worth it for the sake of £5. However I have today (about three weeks after that journey) received a letter from them asking me to contact them via their website. But I can’t get anywhere as it doesn’t recognise the reference number! View attachment 202467

I think I’ll have to take and print photos of the railcard and the Travel Irregularity Notice and send them by snail mail, but what a palaver. My OH will never let me forget it… View attachment 202468



Maggie_M

I-Pad pw

Welcome.
I’m assuming the railcard left at home was valid and in date?

Basically you are being asked to provide evidence to allow you to use the so called ‘forgotten railcard policy’ which allows you one grace occasion per year to forget your railcard but not be penalised for doing so.

Pretty sure there’s also a postal address for TPE if the website won’t work. Can probably find that for you if it would help. Have a feeling address might be at Hull station.

You’d have to send paper copy of railcard with an explanatory note plus I imagine their reference number but also name and address in case they can’t make the ref number work either.

Or does their letter have a postal address on it? In which case use that if website won’t work.

 

[pelli]

On the page you linked, tpexpress.co.uk/drpusupport

Unpaid Fares Notice, Penalty Parking Notice or Travel Irregularity Report (Your reference will start TPEUFN, TPEPPN, TPEMG or TPETIR).​

If you have been issued any of these notices, then you can supply any information we have requested or make an appeal and dispute your liability to pay the amount you owe, by contacting us on our Contact page. Please note that in order for us to respond to your query more efficiently we do not accept emails, and all contact must be via our support page above.

If we have asked you to send us a copy of your Railcard then you should upload pictures of these to the “Attachments” when you contact us. Please make sure you follow this important information about the pictures you upload:

If you have a physical Railcard (plastic or paper), please attach a clear picture of both the front and back of the Railcard, and, in the case of a paper Railcard, your picture should also include the Photocard.

If it is a digital railcard stored on your device, please take a screenshot of the whole Railcard, so that all information including the QR Code and serial number are visible. Then, in your app click on the QR code. The QR code will then enlarge to full screen. Take a screenshot of this full screen QR code. Then attach both pictures to your contact message. If you need a download code you will need to contact the provider where you purchased your railcard and request a new code. This will allow you to download your Railcard.

the instructions state to use the contact page, https://tpedrp.freshdesk.com/support/home. There, you have to register for an account by submitting your name and email address, receiving an email with an activation link to click, and then setting up a password. Then you have to click "Send an Appeal or make contact with us", and select "I have a Travel Irregularity Report, and my reference number starts TPETIR". This should open up a form that looks like this:


Here you have to enter details about yourself and the notice, and upload a photo of your railcard. Is this what you've tried? It looks like the form will accept anything in the reference number field as long as it's not empty.

 

[gray1404]

Should the guard have sold a new ticket and issued a TIR? Surely it should have been one or the other.

 

[dodecahedron67]

This is a bit odd, as TPE revenue and guards aren’t allowed to sell a ticket and issue a TIR for the same issue. It’s one or the other.

I’d reply to the letter you got by saying you purchased a new full fare ticket at the time, so they cannot also give a TIR for the same matter. I’d also say that you have found the railcard at issue (and send proof of this), so would like a refund for the full fare ticket you had to purchase.

 

[Maggie_M]

Many thanks for your responses

@WesternLancer: the railcard is valid up to June 2027.

@ Pelli: I missed the bit about registering for an account first - that is probably at the heart of my problem, and why the page won’t accept any entries. I didn’t get as far as the TIR report.

@gray1404 and Dodecahedron67: I can see why the guard would sell me a new ticket, because I might have being lying about having a railcard. He expressly said I could reclaim the cost by sending in a photo of the railcard.

Basically, I’ve been a bit of an idiot all round - first by leaving the card at home in the first place, and then by not thinking of creating an account with the website first - it wasn’t obvious (to me) on the TIR.

So thank you all for your help. I’ll have another go at it tomorrow and let you know how I get on.

 

[tram21]

I can see why the guard would sell me a new ticket, because I might have being lying about having a railcard. He expressly said I could reclaim the cost by sending in a photo of the railcard.

The point of a Ticket Irreguarity report is so that they can look into any recurring issues and then claim back any missing tickets back from you. If you had not had a valid railcard, and bought multiple tickets then they would ask for all the money back. Obviously that's not relevant for you!

Basically they should have just issued a TIR and let the back office charge you for any unpaid tickets.

 

[gray1404]

The guard has to follow strict policies and procedures and they have not done so here.

 

[Cantab26]

Should the guard have sold a new ticket and issued a TIR? Surely it should have been one or the other.

Basically they should have just issued a TIR and let the back office charge you for any unpaid tickets.

There is no legal reason why a new fare cannot be charged and a TIR be submitted to the back office for review.

The guard has to follow strict policies and procedures and they have not done so here.

Even if there was some breach of an internal policy, that is not something that has any material bearing on the passenger’s legal rights and obligations in this case.

The Conditions of Travel are sufficiently clear (especially after the most recent set of revisions) that on the spot payment of a valid fare combined with a report are not mutually exclusive options in these circumstances.

I’d reply to the letter you got by saying you purchased a new full fare ticket at the time, so they cannot also give a TIR for the same matter. I’d also say that you have found the railcard at issue (and send proof of this), so would like a refund for the full fare ticket you had to purchase.

I would very strongly recommend against adding the part I have highlighted in bold.

It is argumentative, unnecessary and legally wrong.

The rest is fine as all the OP needs to say on the online form is:

• that a railcard is held;
• it was forgotten on this particular occasion;
• here is a copy;
• a replacement fare was paid on the train on the day;
• here is a copy of the ticket; and
• please may I have a refund of that additional fare.

 

[dodecahedron67]

There is no legal reason why a new fare cannot be charged and a TIR be submitted to the back office for review.

Even if there was some breach of an internal policy, that is not something that has any material bearing on the passenger’s legal rights and obligations in this

The Conditions of Travel are sufficiently clear (especially after the most recent set of revisions) that on the spot payment of a valid fare combined with a report are not mutually exclusive options in these circumstances.

I would very strongly recommend against adding the part I have highlighted in bold.

It is in blatant breach of TPE’s internal revenue policy. It is explicitly stated when trained on TIRs/UFNs (and PFNs for revenue) that it is not allowed to issue a TIR (and UFN/PFN although irrelevant) as well as selling a new ticket and you are explicitly told to not do this. I literally have the paperwork saying this in my bag.

Given TPE will hold themselves to their own revenue policy above and beyond any legal requirements, it is not argumentative or plain wrong

 

[Cantab26]

It is in blatant breach of TPE’s internal revenue policy.

So what?

Even if TPE’s internal policy does say this, there is nothing in law to stop them from both charging the fare on the spot (since the passenger was not travelling with a valid ticket at the time) and reporting the matter through the TIR process as well.

It adds nothing to what the passenger needs to do to resolve this situation and obtain a refund for the additional fare paid, which is the ‘forgotten railcard’ procedure in the NRCOT.

Internal policy simply doesn’t come into it, forms no part of any legal entitlement on the passenger’s part, isn’t necessary to resolve the situation, is argumentative and combative (“you can’t do that!”) and adds nothing as far as this particular passenger is concerned.

For what it’s worth, a key part of the underlying rationale for such a policy is that taking a fare from the passenger on the spot can negative an inference that the passenger’s intention was not to pay his fare i.e. it is an evidentiary point in a putative subsequent prosecution, but there is nothing here for any particular passenger to rely upon and it would not in itself prevent a prosecution being brought either.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is in blatant breach of TPE’s internal revenue policy. It is explicitly stated when trained on TIRs/UFNs (and PFNs for revenue) that it is not allowed to issue a TIR (and UFN/PFN although irrelevant) as well as selling a new ticket and you are explicitly told to not do this. I literally have the paperwork saying this in my bag.

Given TPE will hold themselves to their own revenue policy above and beyond any legal requirements, it is not argumentative or plain wrong

But as @Cantab26 notes, whether or not an employee has followed internal policy is neither here nor there. It's a training issue, sure, but doesn't change the customer's legal position.

There is nothing in the law or the customer contracts which governs TIRs, so they may perfectly well be submitted even after selling a new ticket. The issue at play here is the passenger's legal position with relation to the offence committed and what they may be criminally or civilly liable for.

A passenger in this position can't point to some other TPE staffer saying "well our non public, internal policy says X Y and Z" and expect it to change their legal position.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Apologies to both @Cantab26 @AlterEgo

I’ve done some digging and it appears that it wasn’t a conductor, but revenue protection that this person encountered. They are trialling ‘TIR warnings’, where they’ll sell a new ticket and issue a ‘warning’ TIR.

Conductors continue to only be allowed to sell a ticket OR issue a TIR.

 

[gray1404]

Apologies to both @Cantab26 @AlterEgo

I’ve done some digging and it appears that it wasn’t a conductor, but revenue protection that this person encountered. They are trialling ‘TIR warnings’, where they’ll sell a new ticket and issue a ‘warning’ TIR.

Conductors continue to only be allowed to sell a ticket OR issue a TIR.

The question then is does TPE have a mechanism in place to honor the forgotten railcard policy if they are issuing both. In other words, to refund the additional fare purchased.

Also what is the difference between a TIR and a Warning TIR, if that means issuing a TIR anyway?

 

[Cantab26]

The question then is does TPE have a mechanism in place to honor the forgotten railcard policy if they are issuing both. In other words, to refund the additional fare purchased.

Post 3 in this thread sets it out in some detail. There’s a web portal where one of the options covers off railcard related TIRs.

Also what is the difference between a TIR and a Warning TIR, if that means issuing a TIR anyway?

There is no difference, apart from “Warning TIR” being used as shorthand to distinguish between something that (as a matter of internal policy) RPIs are allowed to do and conductors are not. Post 13 refers.

A TIR (“ticket irregularity report”) is just a memo. There’s nothing all that special about it.

 

[snail]

It is in blatant breach of TPE’s internal revenue policy. It is explicitly stated when trained on TIRs/UFNs (and PFNs for revenue) that it is not allowed to issue a TIR (and UFN/PFN although irrelevant) as well as selling a new ticket and you are explicitly told to not do this. I literally have the paperwork saying this in my bag.

Given TPE will hold themselves to their own revenue policy above and beyond any legal requirements, it is not argumentative or plain wrong

But how am I, Mr Joe Public, meant to know this?