Railcard required for ToD collection?

[JBuchananGB]

I just went along to Birkdale station to collect tickets ordered online, which included Railcard discounts.

I had bought tickets dates for tomorrow for my wife with Senior Railcard, and my daughter & grand daughter with Family & Friends Railcard. I did not take the Railcards with me.

The clerk entered the booking reference, and then asked me to show a Railcard. I was surprised because I know that it is possible to buy tickets online for future dated travel with railcard discount without being in possession of the Railcard. I satisfied the requirement by showing my expired Senior Railcard which the clerk accepted even though he saw that it was expired.

OK, I know this is MerseyRail and they are a law unto themselves, but is it normal that for ToD tickets collected from a ticket office, having a Railcard discount, that a Railcard should be shown?

 

[Haywain]

is it normal that for ToD tickets collected from a ticket office, having a Railcard discount, that a Railcard should be shown?

No, it isn't, but it does help to make sure people are aware of the need for a valid railcard.

 

[redreni]

No, it isn't, but it does help to make sure people are aware of the need for a valid railcard.

I suppose so, but no more than just saying "here are your tickets, sir, do remember you must have your Railcards with you when you travel."

There's no reason to ask to see them there and then that I can think of. What's the likelihood, where one person is collecting tickets for a group, in advance of the date of travel, that they will have all the Railcards with them?

 

[jfollows]

The terms and conditions state (https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/):

2.5. You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets

and although I’d tend to think of this meaning buying tickets from a ticket office, it’s not unreasonable to also ask for one under your circumstance.

 

[redreni]

The terms and conditions state (https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/):

and although I’d tend to think of this meaning buying tickets from a ticket office, it’s not unreasonable to also ask for one under your circumstance.

But the OP had already purchased the tickets, so this can't apply to this circumstance. If you have already managed to buy the ticket without having to produce the Railcard then all you need do is make sure you have it by the time you travel.

Suppose no Railcard could be produced - is the ticket office clerk going to confiscate the ticket? It has already been sold to the customer.

I tend to think the condition you quote is intended to allow ticket offices to decline to sell discounted tickets for immediate travel to people who don't have their Railcard with them and, I should have thought, no other purpose.

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail making up their own rules again.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Before I showed my expired Railcard, the implication was that I would have to come back later with a railcard. Ironically, my wife had offered me her Railcard before I went out to collect the tickets, and I had declined.

 

[redreni]

Before I showed my expired Railcard, the implication was that I would have to come back later with a railcard. Ironically, my wife had offered me her Railcard before I went out to collect the tickets, and I had declined.

I hope you haven't told her she was right!

 

[Hadders]

Perish the thought that someone might want to collect tickets for someone else, especially an older friend or relative.

 

[gray1404]

Surely Merseyrail is in contract when it comes to allowing people to collect tickets and them agreeing to do so. It certainly is not a requirement for the Railcard to be produced so they should not be imposing this.

I can see them coming up with an excuse such as it is a requirement to be able to produce the Railcard at point of purchase yet missing the point that the purchase has taken place online. They are merely providing collection.

Merseyrail do seem very top heavy on Railcards at the moment with Railcards being asked for promptly when a ticket check takes place on board. I wonder if they are concerned about people purchasing tickets with Railcard discounts and travelling on them but not actually having a Railcard. They should still not be making up their own rules however.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Merseyrail do seem very top heavy on Railcards at the moment with Railcards being asked for promptly when a ticket check takes place on board. I wonder if they are concerned about people purchasing tickets with Railcard discounts and travelling on them but not actually having a Railcard.

Would this be a consequence of it now being practical to buy tickets for M'rail online? Previously, when you had to go to the ticket office to buy the ticket then it was easy enough for the ticket office to ask to see your railcard - given that journeys on M'rail are (surely?) overwhelmingly turn up and go rather than buying in advance, you'd expect a purchaser to have their railcard with them when they bought and travelled. But now that you can buy the ticket at your convenience on your phone, the railcard check at purchase no longer applies. And at the risk of dissing my fellow residents of the Merseyrail area, I can see that there might be people who would take the opportunity to buy and use a railcard reduced ticket that they're not entitled to if they're not checked between purchase and travel.

So what should a railway administration do? It seems to me that requiring the railcard to be shown on inspection is reasonable. And maybe requiring it to be shown on collection isn't unreasonable either.

 

[Buzby]

It’s still illogical… if you went to a TVM it would want a card to validate the issuing of tickets against a reference code, but you wouldn’t be obliged to show the Railcard as well.

 

[185]

I see straight away some are keen to point blame at Merseyrail's ticket office staff implying some conspiracy to invent new rules, when all they were probably doing was proactively checking the passenger had a valid railcard so they could avoid a potential penalty fare / £400+ prosecution / SJP nonsense et al.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I see straight away some are keen to point blame at Merseyrail's ticket office staff implying some conspiracy to invent new rules, when all they were probably doing was proactively checking the passenger had a valid railcard so they could avoid a potential penalty fare / £400+ prosecution / SJP nonsense et al.

Exactly this.

The fact it doesn't happen more often elsewhere is probably because most TODs aren't collected from ticket office windows anymore. In this case there was also a mix of railcard types, and I would hope staff would identify this when issuing, as there could have been a genuine error by the customer that their attention needs drawing to.

Especially in a Penalty Fare area, and an operator known to have a very strict policy when it comes to enforcement, staff being proactive before it gets that far should be encouraged as good practice. Similarly, you occasionally find ticket office staff endorse tickets manually with "restrictions advised" etc - something not strictly necessary, but emphasizes the need to comply with the restrictions and provides useful insight to ticket checking staff in the event it's abused later.

 

[Haywain]

The fact it doesn't happen more often elsewhere is probably because most TODs aren't collected from ticket office windows anymore.

The fact that it doesn't happen more is because no one working in a ticket office has been told that they should do it, and they never were. I worked in a ticket office for many years, starting when ToD was a new thing, and it was not once suggested that railcards should be checked. Whilst I am taking the view that in this case the clerk was being helpful (in his own way), it certainly isn't because of any training or instruction that occurs on a national level.

 

[redreni]

maybe requiring it to be shown on collection isn't unreasonable either.

It is if the retailer doesn't tell people that when giving them the collection instructions. And as retailers can't read Merseyrail staff's minds and there is no requirement to have the railcard at the point of collection in the NRCoT, the Railcard T&Cs or anywhere else relevant, it is unlikely that retailers are going to start telling customers that any time soon.

There does seem to be an expectation, when you read TOD instructions, that most people will want to wait until just before they travel to collect their tickets. Given how passengers are treated if they are unable, for whatever reason, to collect before they need to travel, it is understandable that many passengers prefer to get hold of their tickets before the date of travel. Not telling them that the Railcard is needed at the point of collection and then sending them away, when they may have made a special journey or gone out of their way to call in at the station for their tickets, is just awful customer service.

 

[TUC]

I see straight away some are keen to point blame at Merseyrail's ticket office staff implying some conspiracy to invent new rules, when all they were probably doing was proactively checking the passenger had a valid railcard so they could avoid a potential penalty fare / £400+ prosecution / SJP nonsense et al.

Fine, but when most other people are collecting tickets from TVMs without that check, it does feel a little bit redundant.

 

[OscarH]

I think as others have said the context is what really matters here. If they're just asking as an extra check for you in case it's expired, and will happily issue it without showing one, then that's great and should be more encouraged. If they at any point suggested they shouldn't without seeing it then that's completely unacceptable.

The retailers paid enough extra for it being collected at a booking office instead of a TVM, the passenger might as well get some extra service

 

[MrJeeves]

I was peeved enough when trying to buy a ticket at Birmingham New Street and being asked for mine and my friend's Railcard when they weren't even with me at the time.

Thankfully, a screenshot was accepted, else I'd be quite annoyed about having to plan in extra time in the morning to get our tickets!

I don't know what I'd do if I was similarly collecting tickets for two people in advance and they refused to give them to me!

 

[smsm1]

I've had to show the Railcard in the past frequently when collecting tickets. Luckily on one occasion the ticket clerk noticed I'd accidently chosen the wrong one with a similar name and the same discount so they issued a zero fare excess to the right Railcard to prevent any problems.

 

[Mr Grayson]

I think we'd all like to know what the member of staff in the ticket office would've said next had the OP not produced an expired railcard. Unfortunately we'll never know.

 

[yorkie]

..... I satisfied the requirement ...

There is no such requirement.

OK, I know this is MerseyRail and they are a law unto themselves, but is it normal that for ToD tickets collected from a ticket office, having a Railcard discount, that a Railcard should be shown?

Unfortunately, some ticket office staff appear to act in a manner that encourages the further decline and potential demise of their role; it defies common sense.

I am very glad I no longer have to visit ticket offices these days (at least not except for extremely rare occasions); it used to be so frustrating when having to deal with people who refuse to issue tickets, excesses, etc. Now I buy online wherever possible.

I think we'd all like to know what the member of staff in the ticket office would've said next had the OP not produced an expired railcard. Unfortunately we'll never know.

Indeed; they would have had no legitimate option but to hand over the tickets, simply with a reminder to ensure that the Railcard was carried on the journey.

There is no way the ticket clerk could have lawfully confiscated the tickets; if anyone is collecting tickets for others from this station in future, it may be worth checking that they don't do this...

 

[redreni]

I've had to show the Railcard in the past frequently when collecting tickets. Luckily on one occasion the ticket clerk noticed I'd accidently chosen the wrong one with a similar name and the same discount so they issued a zero fare excess to the right Railcard to prevent any problems.

I must admit I hadn't considered circumstances like that.

There is no such requirement.

Unfortunately, some ticket office staff appear to act in a manner that encourages the further decline and potential demise of their role; it defies common sense.

I am very glad I no longer have to visit ticket offices these days (at least not except for extremely rare occasions); it used to be so frustrating when having to deal with people who refuse to issue tickets, excesses, etc. Now I buy online wherever possible.

Indeed; they would have had no legitimate option but to hand over the tickets, simply with a reminder to ensure that the Railcard was carried on the journey.

There is no way the ticket clerk could have lawfully confiscated the tickets; if anyone is collecting tickets for others from this station in future, it may be worth checking that they don't do this...

I fear the problem with only using ticket offices when we have to, is low sales / numbers of transactions per hour will be useful to the government whenever it next tries to axe them.

Only yesterday evening I arrived in Birmingham Moor Street on the outward portion of a Super Off-peak return wanting to buy a WM PlusBus add-on for today (which is the day I plan to begin my return journey). When I bought the ticket online I was only offered the possibility to add a PlusBus ticket dated for yesterday, not today or any other day within the one month return window. Were it not for the existence of ticket offices I'm not sure what else I could have done? Pestered the guard, I suppose? I'd have had to go looking for him as he didn't come around.

If we want them to be there when we need them (and, more importantly perhaps, when others need them to make train travel accessible for them), I can't help but feel it may be a good idea to use them occasionally even when we don't strictly speaking need them.

 

[TUC]

Perhaps a helpful middle ground would have been to simply say 'don't forget that you'll need your railcard when using the tickets' rather actually asking to see it,

 

[JBuchananGB]

My next tickets are likely to be Wigan to London zone1-2, Railcard discount for travel on 14 September. Which I may well collect at Birkdale before I renew my Railcard. Could be interesting.

 

[gray1404]

I wonder if I have encountered this same booking office member at Birkdale. Upon asking to use the toilet (the booking office has to release the door) I was informed it was for rail users only. I responded by saying that I am using the train and I showed my ticket before I was allowed access.