Railcard rejected

[wykelteria]

Hello. I bought my railcard just yesterday at Bangor. I travel from Rhyl to Bangor from Monday to Friday except at Wednesday and just this morning I asked for a student ticket and showed my railcard at the counter and he said that they don't accept them anymore. I had to pay £10.20 so I spent £20.40 just for 2 days. I am on a full time course of National diploma in construction and I am just sad about thinking how I will have to pay £10.20 day to day just to get to the college.

Why did they reject the railcard?

 

[Jordy]

What time was this? There are minimum fare restrictions at certain times

Minimum fares / Time restrictions
Please remember that for all journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday, a £12 minimum fare applies. If you travel regularly before 10am then a weekly or monthly season ticket may be more appropriate (a Railcard discount will not apply). However, there is NO minimum fare on Public Holidays and during July or August. For full details of minimum fares, please ask at your local staff station or National Rail licensed Travel Agents.

 

[wykelteria]

What time was this? There are minimum fare restrictions at certain times

Oh I see. Then the railcard I bought is useless then. I depart from 7:58. My college starts at 9.

 

[EM2]

Not totally useless, you will still be able to use it in leisure time, so you get a 1/3 off if you need a train to go to gigs and stuff.

 

[monkey]

^^useless for its intended purpose though...

 

[clagmonster]

The day return costs £10.20. You say you travel 4 days per week, so that would cost you £40.80. If you bought a weekly season, this would cost you £37.80 per week, a saving of £3 per week. Similarly a monthly would cost £145.20 and an annual £1512.

 

[northwichcat]

If the original poster doesn't travel at all on Wednesday then a weekly season won't be cheaper.

As an Off-Peak Return (formly Saver) is available for that route at any time and that ticket type used to have a £8 minimum fare before 10am, it's possible the original poster wasn't aware of the new £12 minimum fare on all ticket types, instead of the tiered minimum fares.

 

[clagmonster]

Where have you got your figures from? The original poster travels out at 07:58, so the off peak day return (formally cheap day, not saver) would not be valid, hence the correct fare is the day return, priced at £10.20. National Rail shows the £10.10
CDR not be valid until the 09:58, which tallies with my now ot of date copy of NFM03. The weekly season costs £37.80, which is less than 4 times the cost of a day return, so would be cheaper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to add, the main prices of seasons are as follows (taken from the National Rail season price calculator):
7 day: £37.80
1 month £145.20
3 months: £435.50
6 months: £871
Annual £1512

Obviously, as you buy longer seasons they get better in value. The OP is in the best position to decide which is most suitable depending on his term dates.

 

[northwichcat]

Where have you got your figures from? The original poster travels out at 07:58, so the off peak day return (formally cheap day, not saver) would not be valid, hence the correct fare is the day return, priced at £10.20.

I mis-wrote my original post but corrected it now. I said Off-Peak Day Return (formely Saver) instead of Off-Peak Return (formely Saver), you corrected the wrong part. An Off-Peak Return/Saver at £14.40 would have been cheaper than the Day Return Price with a YP railcard before the minimum fare was changed.

 

[yorkie]

I do wonder if the rules on regulated fares were broken when minimum fares were increased for protected Saver fares from £8 to £12. I suggest anyone affected writes to their MPs. State that the Saver fare (in most cases renamed to Off Peak) is a protected fare, yet the cost has massively increased without warning and without reason. Not only that, but we were told that no fares would increase with Simplification but that was clearly a lie. It could be worth going to Trading Standards over that.

The DfT don't give a damn and don't seem to even understand the point of the argument so don't bother asking them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Get a season for 5 week blocks or blocks in terms as appropriate.

e.g. a season valid from Monday 21 September to Friday 23 October (1 month & 2 days) is £155. Assuming you never travel on Wednesdays or the 4 weekends it is valid for, it works out at £7.55 per day. If you ever travel on any Wednesday or weekday then you get a bonus free trip, look at it that way.

 

[barrykas]

As far as I can tell, the Railcard minimum fares and time restrictions are NOT regulated, so ATOC could, theoretically, just introduce a blanket ban on the use of 16-25 Railcards before 10am if they so desired.

As for the January fares round, Lord Adonis was making noises about scrapping the fares "basket" and applying limits to individual fares, though I'm unsure how far that's gone, if at all.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[glynn80]

As far as I can tell, the Railcard minimum fares and time restrictions are NOT regulated, so ATOC could, theoretically, just introduce a blanket ban on the use of 16-25 Railcards before 10am if they so desired.

This is correct, the base adult and child fare is regulated, not the Railcard fare (although the Railcard discounted fare is sort of indirectly regulated as there is a degree of regulation for the Railcard schemes in general).

As for the January fares round, Lord Adonis was making noises about scrapping the fares "basket" and applying limits to individual fares, though I'm unsure how far that's gone, if at all.

This has been fully implemented for the January fares round:

Previously, train operators have been allowed to increase individual regulated fares by as much as 5% above the average cap on regulated fares so long as the average increase across their 'basket' of fares was no more than RPI+1%. Andrew Adonis announced in, February 2009, his intention to remove this flexibility for 2010.

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosi...02&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=405926&SubjectId=36

The Government regulates fares where operators are likely to have a high degree of market power. Some 60% of rail travel is undertaken on regulated fares, such as Season Tickets and longer distance Off-Peak fares. The RPI+1% system has been in place since 2003. Train operating companies have some flexibility in setting prices through the 'fares basket' system. This allows some individual fares to be increased by up to 5% more than RPI +1%, provided the overall average does not exceed RPI +1%. When appearing before us in February, the then Minister of State, Lord Adonis announced that:

In a time of economic stringency I do not think it acceptable for individual commuters to face significantly above-average fare increases. The Government's intention is, therefore, that in future the cap should apply to individual regulated fares, not just to the average of each fares basket.[57]

Lord Adonis confirmed this position when he appeared before us in June.[58] We welcome the removal of regulated fares basket flexibility. No longer will train operators be able to continue the unacceptable practice of increasing selected regulated fares by six or seven times the inflation rate.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/233/23305.htm

In 2010, we have an unusual situation where the RPI being used is negative and this, combined with the Secretary of State’s decision to remove the +5% of flexibility on individual fares, means that regulated fares should fall by 0.4%.

 

[northwichcat]

Get a season for 5 week blocks or blocks in terms as appropriate.

e.g. a season valid from Monday 21 September to Friday 23 October (1 month & 2 days) is £155. Assuming you never travel on Wednesdays or the 4 weekends it is valid for, it works out at £7.55 per day. If you ever travel on any Wednesday or weekday then you get a bonus free trip, look at it that way.

But remember to check if you have holidays in the following five weeks before purchase, otherwise it could be an expensive ticket.

 

[jon0844]

I think the new minimum fare is ridiculous, unless you're always travelling an incredibly long distance. My wife now gets to use my 'partner card' at weekends only, as she can't save a penny in the week (after 10am) because of the minimum fare!

I am just waiting for the day that I get a minimum fare on my annual Gold Card. It will happen, I have no doubt.

 

[Max]

I think the new minimum fare is ridiculous, unless you're always travelling an incredibly long distance. My wife now gets to use my 'partner card' at weekends only, as she can't save a penny in the week (after 10am) because of the minimum fare!

I am just waiting for the day that I get a minimum fare on my annual Gold Card. It will happen, I have no doubt.

But on the flip side, some have benefitted. My fare to York before 9:30am has fallen from £16 to £12 as a result of the changes. It's swings and roundabouts!

 

[jon0844]

Has the introduction of a minimum charge/fare got anything to do with other price reductions?

 

[northwichcat]

I do wonder if the rules on regulated fares were broken when minimum fares were increased for protected Saver fares from £8 to £12.

Possibly not. I may be wrong but isn't regulation is for an average rise? As adult fares are rounded to the nearest 10p and child and railcard discounts to the nearest 5p. So if the regulated increase is 4.6% then can't a TOC could increase one fare by 4.8% and another by 4.4% and have lovely multiple of 10p fares?

 

[Waddon]

On the subject of railcards, does anyone know if they will be valid on Southeastern high speed services? Especially the Network Card - I'm sure it will be valid on the bits which run on regular lines but I'm wondering about the actual high speed bits to St Pancras.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't believe the FRPP or Railcard website have been updated to incorporate the High Speed Services yet, but as you currently need a supplement to use these services I suspect the answer currently is....

The original ticket may be discounted, but the supplement is full price.

 

[yorkie]

The supplement is for Not HS1 fares. I do not know if there is a discount for the supplement or not, but a member of this forum used a railcard to get a discounted ticket to Ebbsfleet, despite someone else telling me that discounts would not be available for 'preview' services. PRIV is not accepted on 'preview' services.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Having had a quick scout round, Southeastern has fares listed on their website

It appears as though there are both through tickets and supplements available, it states railcard discounts apply but my ticket machine doesn't show a discount for the supplements.

EDIT: The through tickets are for stations served by the services from St Pancras and the Supplements are for other destinations or for those with season tickets.

 

[barrykas]

Looking in the "Promotions & Events" section of The Manual gives the following:

Railcard discounts are valid on both the walk-up Preview fares and the Preview supplements with Disabled, Family & Friends, Senior, 16-25, Network Railcard and Forces railcards. Normal minimum fare rules apply.

Network Gold Card and New Deal Cards, however, are not valid for discount.

Groupsave discounts are also available on off-peak tickets – namely ODT and CDR,

Travel Agents Discounts are not available on high speed preview services.

At present there is no free or reduced rate travel for rail staff on high speed preview services.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[jon0844]

Why is a Gold Card excluded when it's (technically) a step up beyond a Network Railcard?

Mind you, I'll always get discounted HEX tickets with NSE written on it - after showing a Gold Card (as against GOLDC).

 

[Lampshade]

I don't think TOCs like the 16-25 railcards - many students have one but yet there's a minimum fare/not accepted at the times they need to commute to college/uni

 

[glynn80]

I don't think TOCs like the 16-25 railcards - many students have one but yet there's a minimum fare/not accepted at the times they need to commute to college/uni

But they aren't solely available to students, they are on sale to anybody between the ages of 16 to 25 whether they be in full time employment or full time education.

 

[northwichcat]

But they aren't solely available to students, they are on sale to anybody between the ages of 16 to 25 whether they be in full time employment or full time education.

Many holders of 16-25 railcards are university students who are living away from home during term time and doing most of their travelling at weekends. In fact if you're over 26 and at university you can get a 16-25 railcard.

 

[Greenback]

Very true, but there ar emany people commuting to well paid jobs who also benefit from having a 16-25 railcard, and I suspect that it is this type of travel that the restrictions are meant to catch. After all, students lving away from home are not going to fall foul fo the minimum fares at all! I know several personally who earn more than I dom but would pay a lot less for their travel were it not for the minimum fares!

Perhaps there should be a reduction in the age limit to 20, with the card still available to all full time students as now...

 

[glynn80]

Many holders of 16-25 railcards are university students who are living away from home during term time and doing most of their travelling at weekends. In fact if you're over 26 and at university you can get a 16-25 railcard.

Well I haven't got the statistics specifically of persons buying 16-25 Railcards but I can say that only 38.4%* of 16-25 year olds are in higher education and therefore a significant majority of those eligible to purchase the Railcard aren't at university.

Furthermore out of those 38.4% of course a sizable proportion will be living at home (estimated to be approximately a third of those from student surveys undertaken).

*http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000839/SFR02-2009webversion1.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

Well I haven't got the statistics specifically of persons buying 16-25 Railcards but I can say that only 38.4%* of 16-25 year olds are in higher education and therefore a significant majority of those eligible to purchase the Railcard aren't at university.

Furthermore out of those 38.4% of course a sizable proportion will be living at home (estimated to be approximately a third of those from student surveys undertaken).

*http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000839/SFR02-2009webversion1.pdf

38.4% of 16-25 year olds in HE is still a large number of people. I think most people in FE (up to A Level standard) would not be using a railcard to get to college as they likely make the journey 5 days a week and in most cases it's under 10 miles, so a season ticket, that may be subsided by the council in some cases, would be more appropriate.

 

[glynn80]

38.4% of 16-25 year olds in HE is still a large number of people. I think most people in FE (up to A Level standard) would not be using a railcard to get to college as they likely make the journey 5 days a week and in most cases it's under 10 miles, so a season ticket, that may be subsided by the council in some cases, would be more appropriate.

I'm not trying to make the point that nobody that attends university purchases a 16-25 Railcard. I am trying to illustrate that you cannot expect TOCs to alter the Railcard minimum fare to suit those travelling to university as 91107 suggested (how many actually commute to university anyway 91107, most will live in the vicinity of the university they attend?).

The reason you can't expect any abolition of the minimum fare obviously is because it would adversely affect TOC Season Ticket revenues (a significant proportion of overall revenue) coming from those persons commuting that are also in full time employment, who would also benefit from any decrease in the minimum fare.