Railcard Questions..

[ChrisMcFall]

Hey all!

I want to get a 16-25 railcard, I just have a few questions. How long would it take to arrive if i ordered online, and are the station made ones rubbish in comparison? (Going to Watford on Wednesday, this relates more to the question below)

Is it also true that Virgin relax their peak restrictions with railcards?

Cheers guys

 

[Intermodal]

Hey all!

Hello there.

I want to get a 16-25 railcard, I just have a few questions. How long would it take to arrive if i ordered online, and are the station made ones rubbish in comparison?

From the website:

7. How long do I have to wait for my Railcard to arrive?
If you are buying your Railcard online we will despatch it within one working day, and send it free by First Class post. We are dependent on the postal service so please allow FIVE working days for your Railcard to arrive. You won’t be able to collect your Railcard from a rail station.

If you buy at a station you will get a paper railcard, whereas if you buy online I believe you will get a plastic railcard, but I could be wrong.

Is it also true that Virgin relax their peak restrictions with railcards?

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards, New Deal Photocards and Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards, may use any Virgin train service, provided that the route on the ticket is not “Virgin Trains Only” and the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains. If the journey is not priced by Virgin Trains then the stated Off-Peak restrictions apply.

Hope this helps.

 

[island]

The station ones are fine, although the railcard is separate from the photocard and you have to bring a passport-sized photo.

If you're travelling on Wednesday I wouldn't risk ordering online.

I haven't anything else to add to AndrewNTH's comments.

 

[yorkie]

Is it also true that Virgin relax their peak restrictions with railcards?

You can use an Off Peak Single / Return ticket on any Virgin Trains service if you buy that Railcard. That doesn't mean you can use an Off Peak Day Single / Return on any train, though - restrictions still apply for Day tickets.

... providing the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains....

I don't agree with this.

Regular readers must be fed up of reading views on the subject of Virgin's Railcard easement as I do tend to repeat it every month or so (last time 13 July) but I'll say it again (sorry!), but the so-called requirement for the ticket to be priced by Virgin is not enforceable IMO because:
1) The restriction is not in the public domain;
2) The restriction is not advertised;
3) In my experience guards simply say something like "Off Peak tickets are not valid except with a Railcard" they don't then give a load of restrictions to that
4) The information on who prices a ticket is not easily available
5) Virgin would get very bad publicity if they did not honour it under the terms that is advertised
6) Guards cannot feasibly look up who sets the fare for every ticket that they check!
I'm sure someone can think of more reasons but that's enough to be getting on with!

 

[All Line Rover]

You can use an Off Peak Single / Return ticket on any Virgin Trains service if you buy that Railcard. That doesn't mean you can use an Off Peak Day Single / Return on any train, though - restrictions still apply for Day tickets.

I don't agree with this.

He was, of course, only quoting Avantix.

 

[yorkie]

He was, of course, only quoting Avantix.

I know, and I never said otherwise I did not attribute the quote to anyone. However I have since changed both quotes (which were previously unattributed) to "NFM09" to avoid confusion.

 

[codenamecuebal]

and you get one plastic card onlinecompared to a separate photocard and railcard in office

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As far as I am aware, and you are welcome to prove otherwise, the easement for Virgin Trains is not in the public domain either, presumably that is unenforceable too?

The sad fact is that the requirement that Virgin Trains price the fare is part of the easement.

 

[Intermodal]

As far as I am aware, and you are welcome to prove otherwise, the easement for Virgin Trains is not in the public domain either, presumably that is unenforceable too?

The sad fact is that the requirement that Virgin Trains price the fare is part of the easement.

I certainly can't find anything about the easement anywhere but here and in NFM09.

 

[yorkie]

As far as I am aware, and you are welcome to prove otherwise, the easement for Virgin Trains is not in the public domain either, presumably that is unenforceable too?

The Railcard easement is in the public domain.

Proof 1: A leaflet titled "Is your Off Peak valid?"
Proof 2: Announcements by guards

The sad fact is that the requirement that Virgin Trains price the fare is part of the easement.

Is it really?

It's not in the leaflet titled "Is your Off Peak valid?" (at least not the versions I've seen!)
It's not mentioned as a dis-easement as part of the overall easement when guards announce it.
It's only mentioned in a place that arguably does not in any way form part of the contract.

 

[tony_mac]

and Virgin's website

Railcard holders can continue to use Off-Peak tickets at any time during peak periods

 

[causton]

Chris, there's nothing wrong with getting it at the station on the day, but just in case they're out of stock or the person behind the office is unable to issue it or the office is closed, I'd pop down on Monday or Tuesday just in advance, you can print the form off in advance and fill it in from the www.16-25railcard.co.uk website - just remember to bring a passport sized photo - the station issued ones are absolutely fine as long as you remember to keep the 2 parts together

 

[Chapeltom]

Online ones can fade or scratch pretty quickly. Stick it in the same pocket as some keys for example and you'll find it scratches fairly fast.

At the station ones, I've found (just got my 1st station one) you can stick tickets in the railcard wallet as well and at manual ticket inspections just show the whole thing rather than faf about getting online railcard and ticket

 

[yorkie]

and Virgin's website

I struggled to find it on their website but I did find this

Of course 2.5 million Railcard holders
can continue to use Off-Peak tickets at any time during peak periods - we remain the only train
operator who recognises the loyalty shown by these travellers in this way.

No small print there.

 

[scotsman]

Get an online railcard, then go to a station and ask for a ticket wallet/put it in your wallet. Simples.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Railcard easement is in the public domain.

Proof 1: A leaflet titled "Is your Off Peak valid?"
Proof 2: Announcements by guards

....

Is it possible for you to provide a copy of that leaflet? (or even a link to a pdf)

Announcements by guards are known to be inaccurate sometimes, you yourself have said that many times.

....Is it really?

It's not in the leaflet titled "Is your Off Peak valid?" (at least not the versions I've seen!)
It's not mentioned as a dis-easement as part of the overall easement when guards announce it.
It's only mentioned in a place that arguably does not in any way form part of the contract.

Is there anything that says the leaflet forms part of the contract?

I can't comment on the contents of the leaflet until I have seen it, but I wonder what small print is actually in it.

Is there anything that says the Guards announcement forms part of the contract with the passenger?

Is a guard going to check which fares are set by Virgin to confirm or deny that they are valid, or unduly worry passengers about the validity of their tickets? (given that ticket office staff and online/telesales staff shouldn't be giving the discount on anything but Virgin priced fares in the first place)

Dis-easement as part of the overall easement? What exactly is that supposed to mean? The easement is that if the Off-Peak fare is set by Virgin and is not rte Virgin Trains only, the railcard discounted Off-Peak ticket can be used on any Virgin Trains Service.

and Virgin's website

Could you point out where on the website, I can't seem to find it.

 

[yorkie]

Is it possible for you to provide a copy of that leaflet? (or even a link to a pdf)

I'd need to scan it, no idea where a PDF can be found

Announcements by guards are known to be inaccurate sometimes, you yourself have said that many times.

True, but if they are announcing a concession, then I don't think they could go back on that.

Is there anything that says the leaflet forms part of the contract?

It's surely more likely to form part of the contract (it is designed to ensure passengers adhere to the conditions!) than a hidden bit of text in a staff manual!

I can't comment on the contents of the leaflet until I have seen it, but I wonder what small print is actually in it.

There is nothing saying the journey has to be priced by Virgin.

Is there anything that says the Guards announcement forms part of the contract with the passenger?

Again, if the guard says you can do something, I think that would carry more weight than a hidden restriction that only appears in a staff manual.

Is a guard going to check which fares are set by Virgin to confirm or deny that they are valid, or unduly worry passengers about the validity of their tickets? (given that ticket office staff and online/telesales staff shouldn't be giving the discount on anything but Virgin priced fares in the first place)

It would clearly not be practicable for that to happen.

Dis-easement as part of the overall easement? What exactly is that supposed to mean?

Well, the easement states you can use a Railcard on any Virgin train. You reckon that there's a clause that means it does not always apply. You can call that what you want. dis-easement seemed as good a term as any. What term would you prefer I used?

The easement is that if the Off-Peak fare is set by Virgin and is not rte Virgin Trains only, the railcard discounted Off-Peak ticket can be used on any Virgin Trains Service.

And this is documented where?

This is not what customers are told!

Could you point out where on the website, I can't seem to find it.

I found this.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There is no way that a Guard can know who prices a particular fare, as Avantix Mobile machines do not give such information. So I would say that that part is not enforceable.

 

[bb21]

There is no way that a Guard can know who prices a particular fare, as Avantix Mobile machines do not give such information. So I would say that that part is not enforceable.

This is useful to know. Thanks.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It's surely more likely to form part of the contract (it is designed to ensure passengers adhere to the conditions!) than a hidden bit of text in a staff manual!....

The thing is that as an easement I'm not sure it does have to be part of the contract. They are giving you more than you are entitled to. Now I realise this looks like the polar opposite of what I am saying, but it isn't. The leaflet could be misleading (that would not be a first), but the staff information must be as close to the truth as it can be so that impartial information can be given correctly.

I wouldn't be surprised if this leaflet is only available at Virgin Trains stations.

....There is nothing saying the journey has to be priced by Virgin....

I wasn't neccesarily thinking of that.

....Again, if the guard says you can do something, I think that would carry more weight than a hidden restriction that only appears in a staff manual....

Firstly, there is no hidden restriction, it is part of the easement.

Secondly, the guard making the announcement may not care about the minor points of the easement, or simply misunderstands it, but does five guards announcing that mean that five different guards do not care or misunderstand it also?

....Well, the easement states you can use a Railcard on any Virgin train. You reckon that there's a clause that means it does not always apply. You can call that what you want. dis-easement seemed as good a term as any. What term would you prefer I used?....

It is part of the easement, not an addition/restriction to it, it is in the sentence that defines which tickets it applies to. I dare say that leaflet mentions nothing about tickets that have 'rte Virgin Trains Only' on them, but that is also part of the easement.

....And this is documented where?

This is not what customers are told!....

It is documented in the FRPP/NFM, as you have been informed previously.

As we both know what happens in the real world and what happens in theory are two different things, we can agree on that I take it. It may just be a case that legally speaking Virgin can't give out easements on fares they do not set (as an example, you can't get a Northern Duo from Liverpool to Manchester because the fare is set by FTPE). Does Virgin care if the easement is applied to other TOCs tickets? probably not.

....I found this.

yes I saw that, but that is even more open to abuse than what you claim the leaflet says.

..... Of course 2.5 million Railcard holders
can continue to use Off-Peak tickets at any time during peak periods - we remain the only train
operator who recognises the loyalty shown by these travellers in this way. ....

I'm sure that could be taken to mean any number of things.

 

[tony_mac]

Firstly, there is no hidden restriction, it is part of the easement.

and you forgot to mention black = white.

 

[causton]

I'm sure that could be taken to mean any number of things.

Where is the ambiguity in "Railcard holders can continue to use Off-Peak tickets at any time during peak periods"? Cause I can't see it!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

and you forgot to mention black = white.

Funny.

Imagine there was an easement that said:

You could use any train to travel provided it isn't blue or have pink spots.

That doesn't mean there is an easement that says you can use any train and a separate restriction that says it can't be a blue train or be a train that has pink spots, it would be one easement, which is basically the same as Virgin's easement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where is the ambiguity in "Railcard holders can continue to use Off-Peak tickets at any time during peak periods"? Cause I can't see it!

The problem is that the FRPP says Railcard holders can use any Virgin Trains Service provided that the ticket is not routed 'Virgin Trains Only' and the fare is set by Virgin Trains.

Yorkie says there is a leaflet that says Railcard holders can use any Virgin Trains service.

And that document on the Virgin Website basically says railcard holders can use any service.

And you don't see any ambiguity?

 

[Mojo]

Why would you keep your wallet loose in your pocket or bag with your keys? Surely it should stay safe in a ticket wallet (with your tickets)?