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Railcard question
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RailUK Forums
Group save is applicable to three (or four) passengers travelling together and the discounts vary between routes and train companies. A railcard is NOT required.
Group save is NOT applicable to children, all group save fares are adult fares therefore not always the best deal!
A family and friends railcard gives up to 2 children and 1 adult (I think...) up to 34% discount on most off-peak train fares when try travel together. Up to 2 further children travel for £1 each depending on the route, dates, times and train co but a railcard IS required.
Group save is NOT applicable to children, all group save fares are adult fares therefore not always the best deal!
A family and friends railcard gives up to 2 children and 1 adult (I think...) up to 34% discount on most off-peak train fares when try travel together. Up to 2 further children travel for £1 each depending on the route, dates, times and train co but a railcard IS required.
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Thanks! I have noticed a shocking discrepancy. The friends and family leaflet reads 'you can take up to 3 adults and 4 kids..' the terms and conditions and national rail website state up to FOUR adults and 4 kids!!
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also FGW list groupsave under the heading railcard bizarre
Family and Friends Railcard provides a discount when travelling with a minimum 1 child and 1 adult, maximum 4 childs and 4 adults. The discount is 33% on the adult fares and 60% on the child fares.
RJ
Established Member
I'll post a few facts.
Groupsave is available if there are children in the group. Up to four children can also travel for £1 with every group of 3 or 4.
With a groupsave 4, everybody in the group gets a 50% discount on the adult fare.
For large group sizes, it's advisable to compare the two fares. Sometimes Groupsave is cheaper (especially where there are more children than adults) but Family and Friends tends to be cheaper for smaller group sizes. I created a matrix for use in the ticket office which tells me which out of the F&F and Groupsave 4 works out cheaper for all combinations of up to 8 people travelling. Very useful it is too.
The leaflet says you can take up to three adults and four children with you. The National Rail site says the maximum group size is four adults and four children, so it's one and the same thing.
Groupsave is available if there are children in the group. Up to four children can also travel for £1 with every group of 3 or 4.
With a groupsave 4, everybody in the group gets a 50% discount on the adult fare.
For large group sizes, it's advisable to compare the two fares. Sometimes Groupsave is cheaper (especially where there are more children than adults) but Family and Friends tends to be cheaper for smaller group sizes. I created a matrix for use in the ticket office which tells me which out of the F&F and Groupsave 4 works out cheaper for all combinations of up to 8 people travelling. Very useful it is too.
The leaflet says you can take up to three adults and four children with you. The National Rail site says the maximum group size is four adults and four children, so it's one and the same thing.
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tractakid
Member
May 2008. Says so in the corner.
Doesn't explain whether it's just the stations on the map, or all stations on the routes.
tsr
Established Member
May 2008. Says so in the corner.
Doesn't explain whether it's just the stations on the map, or all stations on the routes.
The map (and its age) has no influence on whether or not the routes shown are actually still valid for GroupSave ticketing, does it?
Also, I notice there are obsolete routes on there - Southern to London Charing Cross and Southeastern at Redhill are immediately obvious - which is to be expected, given that age. In addition, there are inexplicable oddities such as GroupSave not being valid on the route via Berney Arms (and whilst few people use that station, quite a few more pass through it! ).
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Agreed. Three people with you = 4 people.
In areas where groupsave is offered, the F&F railcard is inevitably less attractive.
Example: A Woking - London Super Off Peak Travelcard is £16.80
For 2 adults + 2 children without discounts the price is therefore £50.40
If I buy a F+F railcard, the cost falls to £28.60, saving most of the £30 cost of the railcard in one day out to London.
However, I will automatically be sold groupsave, so the cost is in fact £33.60, and the saving is then only £5 (15%) with the railcard, making its £30 cost much less appealing, because I would need to make six such trips to earn the cost back.
If I travel without my wife, however, the cost of the tickets without railcard would still be £33.60, which falls to £17.30 with a railcard, a saving of almost 50%.
F+F becomes less attractive the higher the proportion of adults in the party. For example, with 3 adults + 1 child, you pay the cost of 2 adult fares instead of 3.5 using groupsave 4. With F+F you would pay for 2.2 fares. With 4 adults + 1 child, you pay 2.5 fares using groupsave, and 2.87 fares using f+f.
Example: A Woking - London Super Off Peak Travelcard is £16.80
For 2 adults + 2 children without discounts the price is therefore £50.40
If I buy a F+F railcard, the cost falls to £28.60, saving most of the £30 cost of the railcard in one day out to London.
However, I will automatically be sold groupsave, so the cost is in fact £33.60, and the saving is then only £5 (15%) with the railcard, making its £30 cost much less appealing, because I would need to make six such trips to earn the cost back.
If I travel without my wife, however, the cost of the tickets without railcard would still be £33.60, which falls to £17.30 with a railcard, a saving of almost 50%.
F+F becomes less attractive the higher the proportion of adults in the party. For example, with 3 adults + 1 child, you pay the cost of 2 adult fares instead of 3.5 using groupsave 4. With F+F you would pay for 2.2 fares. With 4 adults + 1 child, you pay 2.5 fares using groupsave, and 2.87 fares using f+f.
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Oops feel silly now !
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I am confused by the 28.60 price you quote if the price you are working off is 16.80. If the f and f railcard gives a third off adult and 60% off kids fares 60% off 16.80 is 10.08 * 2 is 20.16 and a third off 16.80 is 5.60*2 is 11.20... 11.20+20.16 is 31.36 where did I go wrong
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I am confused by the 28.60 price you quote if the price you are working off is 16.80. If the f and f railcard gives a third off adult and 60% off kids fares 60% off 16.80 is 10.08 * 2 is 20.16 and a third off 16.80 is 5.60*2 is 11.20... 11.20+20.16 is 31.36 where did I go wrong
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What is the rationale behind allowing groups of 4 adults to effectively travel for child rate each but offering no alternative to the twice-the-price adult fare to groups of, say, 2?
What is it about a group of 4 that sufficiently reduces overheads enough to justify such a massive discount?
Why are childless couples and single people aged between 27 and 60 consistently ignored and offered the worst available deal on the railway?
What is it about a group of 4 that sufficiently reduces overheads enough to justify such a massive discount?
Why are childless couples and single people aged between 27 and 60 consistently ignored and offered the worst available deal on the railway?
RJ
Established Member
I suspect that groups that size may be considered more likely to carpool if the option is available to them, so possibly a case of making something from them is better than nothing.
IanD
Established Member
It's not just the railway.
Single people will soon be penalised by the tax system.
When booking hotels rooms you generally have to pay more when travelling alone.
Using a taxi on your own cost 2, 3 or 4 times as much as it does when travelling in a group of 2, 3 or 4.
Single people only seem to benefit from a 25% reduction in council tax.
Please explain the last paragraph how the .87 etc are worked out... What does 3.5 using groupsave 4 mean.. I thought groupsave 4 meant 2 pay 2 don't pay extra kids 1 pound flat fare max of 4
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hairyhandedfool
Established Member
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The 1/3 off for adults is calculated to 34% (rounded up to the nearest 5p). The child fare, whilst often being close to 60% off the child fare is actually calculated to 81% off the adult fare (rounded up to the nearest 5p).
Adult rate = £16.80 - 34% = £11.08 = £11.10
Child rate = £16.80 - 81% = £3.19 = £3.20
Thus two Adults (2 x £11.10) and two children (2 x £3.20) is £28.60.
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Well that makes perfect sense, you are renting a room therefore it isn't generally charged per person its per room (Except when extras are offered on a per person basis ie breakfast).
Ditto taxi's - the cost to provide the service is the same whether there are 3 passengers or 1. You are renting the car and driver.
Yes sorry you are right about the £1 fare (except Scotrail), I forgot about that.
Normally 3 adults and 1 child pay the equivalent of 3 and a half adult fares = 3.5. With groupsave you pay for only 2 adult fares. With 4 adults + 1 child you therefore actually pay only 2 adult fares + £1. The 2.87 is based on 4 adults saving one third (= 2.67 full adult fares), plus a child fare at 60% off, equivalent to 0.2 adult fares (half an adult fare minus 60%), 2.67 + 0.2 = 2.87.
Thanks even so just realised my calculations would have been wrong anyway as I forgot to takeaway the reductions from the original prices
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Thanks
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This is all a ploy to make single blokes go out with ugly birds!
It's market-based pricing again.
As you have more people travelling together, it becomes cheaper to travel by car, the costs of petrol etc are pretty static no matter how many people are inside. Hence, the railways have to offer a more attractive deal to tempt you to go by rail.
As you have more people travelling together, it becomes cheaper to travel by car, the costs of petrol etc are pretty static no matter how many people are inside. Hence, the railways have to offer a more attractive deal to tempt you to go by rail.
This is the case once you reach 2 people rather than 4, though. Infact it's often the case even for single passenger journeys.
Surely the point where that becomes true varies wildly - as do ticket prices.
With a £26 advance (2 x £13 single) from Leeds - London I'd need more than 4 for the car to be cheaper.
IanD
Established Member
Yes, but more often than not you get charged the same rate for a double room + breakfast whether there is one or two of you. If there is only one of you then you should get a reduction as you only have 1 breakfast. Last week I stayed in a hotel for work and was charged thusly - I suggested I should get a second breakfast and they just laughed. Pure profit for them. (It was a cr@p breakfast - 1 sausage, 1 piece of bacon, 1 egg and some grilled mushrooms so I could have done with 2! And this from an allegedly 3 star hotel at the best part of £100 per night - I've had much better in most no star B&Bs I've stayed in for a fraction of the cost.)
If you book a single room that only has a single bed it is very rarely the same price as half a double room - again you have to pay extra for the privilege of travelling alone.
Why on earth would it be? It isn't half the size either with a door half the size and a shower half the size and running costs half as much.
IanD
Established Member
No, but the threshold will still vary by flow.
Incidentally, East Coast offer their (approx 33%) group discount on Advance tickets.
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