Railcard prosecution

[Dumbblonde]

Hi guys,

I hope are all well?

I was incredibly stupid and didn’t check that my railcard was valid… obviously got stopped and looked at my railcard thinking it was in date and it wasn’t (oh how confidently incorrect I was hey!) I was travelling with Thameslink from hitchin to Pancras

I have been informed that it has gone to a Thameslink prosecution which I obviously get and own up too as I didn’t have the railcard.

What happens now? I am really panicking as I have never broken the law, and I can’t even sleep or settle knowing that I could be prosecuted! I am a midwife so I really do not want to have a criminal record. I am absolutely terrified that that I am going to be prosecuted!

Any advice would be amazing,


Thanks for reading

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==

Edited to show where I was travelling and train service

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the letter you have received with any personal details and reference numbers obscured?

Forum Members can then provide advice specific to your issue.

Please do not panic. As you will see if you read posts on this forum many cases can be resolved without being prosecuted.

 

[John R]

Have you checked whether there are other instances where you have travelled with an out of date railcard, and purchased the ticket online. (If you bought your ticket online it is very likely that GTR (Thameslink) will check.)

 

[WesternLancer]

What happens now? I am really panicking as I have never broken the law, and I can’t even sleep or settle knowing that I could be prosecuted! I am a midwife so I really do not want to have a criminal record. I am absolutely terrified that that I am going to be prosecuted!

Any advice would be amazing,

Hi - assuming you have not had it already and assuming you gave them a correct name and address you will get a letter that will probably be along the lines of the example in post one of this thread that you can see here (the case is different to yours as it involved deliberate fare evasion, but the letters they send out seem to be pretty standard, and even in this case the person was not prosecuted in the end)

Thameslink - Intent to prosecute Letter - (Advice)

Hi all on the forums, I received an intent to prosecute letter from Thameslink. I travelled using a short ticket (London Bridge to St Pancras) when my full travel was for Redhill to St Pancras. This was the first time I have been caught doing something like this, however I had been doing this...

www.railforums.co.uk

Though depending on the circs it may be a bit differently worded. It may look like they are going to prosecute you but if you look carefully it will be inviting you to give your side of the story.

Obviously overlooked expiry dates in railcards are common on here as causes of problems as the railway and the ticket retailers seem not very good at reminding people of the expiry.

Given what is seen on other threads for this, and given that you presumably had no deliberate intention to avoid your fare, it is vert likely (but not 100% guaranteed) that you will be able to agree to settle the matter with them without it being sent to court for prosecution.

But it is vital that you watch out for the letter, and take action to respond to it promptly, and make sure your response gets to the railway company safely, because if they do not get a response you their letter it will almost certainly just get escalated automatically to court action - which you need to avoid.

In the meantime, check your ticket buying records to check from the date your Railcard expired how many times you may have travelled with a wrongly discounted ticket.

In terms of the costs of settlement they will probably expect you to pay:

- cost of replacement ticket for any journey travelled after the Railcard expired (sadly they usually do not regard the discounted ticket as part payment, they regard it an invalid ticket)
- a payment for their 'admin' costs of looking into this (often seems to be around £100 to £150)

If they do offer this you need to be ready to pay it promptly and in full so do make sure you have funds saved up and available for this.

Hope this helps.

When you hear from them head back here for specific advice. As you will see on other threads, people often post their draft replies so forum members can make any suggestions to help get the best (or least worst...) outcome.

 

[spag23]

As WesternLancer says, don't rely on the Railcard seller sending you a reminder next year. Set (now!) your own, reliable, alert to prompt you to renew a few weeks ahead of the expiry.

 

[Dumbblonde]

Please can you upload the letter you have received with any personal details and reference numbers obscured?

Forum Members can then provide advice specific to your issue.

Please do not panic. As you will see if you read posts on this forum many cases can be resolved without being prosecuted.

Hi,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply

I spoke to the train officer who said a penalty fair would be sent out and I must pay within 4 weeks, as it has been two weeks and I hadn’t received anything, I had rang Thames link who had advised me that it had gone to prosecutions.

Hence the shock from today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==

Hi - assuming you have not had it already and assuming you gave them a correct name and address you will get a letter that will probably be along the lines of the example in post one of this thread that you can see here (the case is different to yours as it involved deliberate fare evasion, but the letters they send out seem to be pretty standard, and even in this case the person was not prosecuted in the end)

Thameslink - Intent to prosecute Letter - (Advice)

Hi all on the forums, I received an intent to prosecute letter from Thameslink. I travelled using a short ticket (London Bridge to St Pancras) when my full travel was for Redhill to St Pancras. This was the first time I have been caught doing something like this, however I had been doing this...

www.railforums.co.uk

Though depending on the circs it may be a bit differently worded. It may look like they are going to prosecute you but if you look carefully it will be inviting you to give your side of the story.

Obviously overlooked expiry dates in railcards are common on here as causes of problems as the railway and the ticket retailers seem not very good at reminding people of the expiry.

Given what is seen on other threads for this, and given that you presumably had no deliberate intention to avoid your fare, it is vert likely (but not 100% guaranteed) that you will be able to agree to settle the matter with them without it being sent to court for prosecution.

But it is vital that you watch out for the letter, and take action to respond to it promptly, and make sure your response gets to the railway company safely, because if they do not get a response you their letter it will almost certainly just get escalated automatically to court action - which you need to avoid.

In the meantime, check your ticket buying records to check from the date your Railcard expired how many times you may have travelled with a wrongly discounted ticket.

In terms of the costs of settlement they will probably expect you to pay:

- cost of replacement ticket for any journey travelled after the Railcard expired (sadly they usually do not regard the discounted ticket as part payment, they regard it an invalid ticket)
- a payment for their 'admin' costs of looking into this (often seems to be around £100 to £150)

If they do offer this you need to be ready to pay it promptly and in full so do make sure you have funds saved up and available for this.

Hope this helps.

When you hear from them head back here for specific advice. As you will see on other threads, people often post their draft replies so forum members can make any suggestions to help get the best (or least worst...) outcome.

Hi,

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I have quickly had a look on themeslink, I never knew they automatically added the railcard! Usually when I buy train tickets on the app I’m in a rush and just do Apple Pay! I can’t tell if the train tickets where bought with a railcard or not so I guess it’s waiting for the letter to come back.

I so unbelievably terrified and haven’t stopped crying since today’s phone call!

Thank you again for being so kind.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I am a midwife so I really do not want to have a criminal record

Have a look at the NMC website: it should be reassuring. Of course, your employer (and training institution if you're not yet qualified) may have their own rules: check with your RCN/Unison/etc. rep to know what your specific position is.

 

[John R]

Have a look at the NMC website: it should be reassuring. Of course, your employer (and training institution if you're not yet qualified) may have their own rules: check with your RCN/Unison/etc. rep to know what your specific position is.

And just to add to this, even if you are prosecuted (which is highly unlikely if you cooperate), I can’t imagine any profession would be concerned about a mistake over an expired railcard, where it is clear that there was no fraudulent intent (although there might be a process to go through in terms of disclosure of a conviction and assessment of the case).

 

[MotCO]

And just to add to this, even if you are prosecuted (which is highly unlikely if you cooperate), I can’t imagine any profession would be concerned about a mistake over an expired railcard, where it is clear that there was no fraudulent intent (although there might be a process to go through in terms of disclosure of a conviction and assessment of the case).

I think the key thing is that, in the unlikely event you are prosecuted, you tell your employers. I doubt that they would care much since it is a pure oversight rather than deliberate action. However, if they were to discover that you had been prosecuted, then in the employers eyes you have been witholding information from them and that is more serious than the offence itself. It might help to discuss with your staff rep or union official, but at the moment we are miles away from that position.

The other thing you can do to help your case is to renew your railcard as soon as possible. This shows your intent not to repeat the mistake. And make a note on your calendar, phone etc to renew before it expires - we don't want to see you on the forum again in a year's time!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I spoke to the train officer who said a penalty fair would be sent out and I must pay within 4 weeks, as it has been two weeks and I hadn’t received anything, I had rang Thames link who had advised me that it had gone to prosecutions.

Hence the shock from today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==

Hi - either you misunderstood what they told you on the train, or they misled you (possibly to diffuse a situation) - Penalty Fares (as far as I know) have to be issued then and there on the train, they are not sent out afterwards - but not all staff are able to issue them, so any report made goes to the revenue protection back office team (probably also known as the prosecution team). It's more likely that you were 'reported for investigation' after the member of staff completed a Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR) - I think that is what they are called - which would make sense as your ticket had an irregularity as you had an expired Railcard.

Were you give any paperwork of any sort on the train by the member of staff? If so it would help if you could upload an anonymous copy of that (any ref number or personal details blanked out) so people can check what they actually did / issued you with.

But as people are saying, do not worry - this is very unlikely to go to prosecution if you engage with them - as you have obv tried to do already by ringing them up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==

I have quickly had a look on themeslink, I never knew they automatically added the railcard! Usually when I buy train tickets on the app I’m in a rush and just do Apple Pay! I can’t tell if the train tickets where bought with a railcard or not so I guess it’s waiting for the letter to come back.

People here can check that for you but would need to know tickets you buy (peak / off peak, single / return etc etc) or the sum you paid to see if the ticket has the 34% railcard discount applied or not.

It will say on your ticket if it has a Railcard Discount applied or not I would think, so that staff can easily tell and ask for your Railcard if they need to do so. I would think this is the same if it is an e-ticket or a paper ticket. Perhaps have a look at any old tickets you can access if that is possible.

 

[Dumbblonde]

Hi - either you misunderstood what they told you on the train, or they misled you (possibly to diffuse a situation) - Penalty Fares (as far as I know) have to be issued then and there on the train, they are not sent out afterwards - but not all staff are able to issue them, so any report made goes to the revenue protection back office team (probably also known as the prosecution team). It's more likely that you were 'reported for investigation' after the member of staff completed a Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR) - I think that is what they are called - which would make sense as your ticket had an irregularity as you had an expired Railcard.

Were you give any paperwork of any sort on the train by the member of staff? If so it would help if you could upload an anonymous copy of that (any ref number or personal details blanked out) so people can check what they actually did / issued you with.

But as people are saying, do not worry - this is very unlikely to go to prosecution if you engage with them - as you have obv tried to do already by ringing them up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==



People here can check that for you but would need to know tickets you buy (peak / off peak, single / return etc etc) or the sum you paid to see if the ticket has the 34% railcard discount applied or not.

It will say on your ticket if it has a Railcard Discount applied or not I would think, so that staff can easily tell and ask for your Railcard if they need to do so. I would think this is the same if it is an e-ticket or a paper ticket. Perhaps have a look at any old tickets you can access if that is possible.

hey,

Definitely didn’t mistake about the penalty fair being sent, as my friend was next to me who has said that’s what happened too! I would like to give them the benefit of doubt not knowing it would turn into the courts but here we are! I don’t have any e-tickets but my receipts do not mention railcards.

 

[WesternLancer]

hey,

Definitely didn’t mistake about the penalty fair being sent, as my friend was next to me who has said that’s what happened too! I would like to give them the benefit of doubt not knowing it would turn into the courts but here we are! I don’t have any e-tickets but my receipts do not mention railcards.

would need to know what sort of ticket you buy to shed much light on what the Railcrd / non Railcard fare would be for your journey - but you could look this u yourself on any ticket selling website -and if you use a different device / do not log in I assume it will not apply a Railcard by default.

 

[Hadders]

Welwome to the forum!

Govia Thameslink are one of the more pragmatic train companies to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing. They will send you a letter in the next few weeks saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is extremely important that you reply to this letter. I suggest including the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should the decide to do so.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Dumbblonde]

Hi guys,

It’s been some time, but finally I have received the letter.

I have drafted a letter, it would be great to have some feedback

Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your letter dated xxxxx reference xxxxxxxx, and for providing me with the opportunity to address the matter.

On xxxxxxx, I boarded the Thameslink train to xxxxxx from xxxxxxx. Unfortunately, I failed to verify the validity of my railcard for the journey, mistakenly believing it was valid for three years instead of one. When approached by your Revenue Protection Inspector, I initially asserted that I possessed a valid railcard, although my mobile app was experiencing technical difficulties at the time. Upon disembarking the train, I discovered that my railcard had expired. To rectify this oversight, I promptly purchased a valid railcard for the remainder of the journey.

I fully acknowledge that my actions constituted a serious lapse in judgment, resulting in travel fraud. I am deeply remorseful for any inconvenience caused and recognize the financial implications this may have had on ThamesLink. As a NHS midwife, I am acutely aware of the importance of adequate funding within the public sector and understand the impact such negligence can have on service providers and their stakeholders.

Moving forward, I have implemented measures to ensure that I diligently verify the validity of my railcard before each journey. I understand that it is my responsibility to adhere to the terms and conditions of travel, and I am committed to upholding this responsibility rigorously.

In light of the foregoing, I extend my sincerest apologies and offer to settle the matter by reimbursing the appropriate fare and covering any administrative costs incurred as a result of my oversight. I trust that this gesture demonstrates my genuine intent to make amends and resolve the issue amicably.

Thank you for your understanding, and I eagerly await your response.

Kind regards,

Xxxxx

 

[30907]

Thanks for the update.

Personally, I find the style rather overdone for a business-type mail (apologies if it is your normal style!), but that is your call. I'm not sure your profession is relevant either.

My one major grip is with your last-but-one paragraph: you are in no position to make them an offer - you need to ask them to consider offering you the opportunity to settle.

That apart, I think you have covered the key points.

 

[Dumbblonde]

Thanks for the update.

Personally, I find the style rather overdone for a business-type mail (apologies if it is your normal style!), but that is your call. I'm not sure your profession is relevant either.

My one major grip is with your last-but-one paragraph: you are in no position to make them an offer - you need to ask them to consider offering you the opportunity to settle.

That apart, I think you have covered the key points.

Hey,

Many thanks for reading through, I am so used to writing formal letters, it’s how they always come out, I will definitely look at changing it up a little.

I didn’t even consider it might be offensive to make an offer like that, so thank you!

 

[ikcdab]

its difficult to believe that you can buy a one-year card and then forget, thinking it was a three-year one. You will know what you paid for it and that would remind you. I think it better to say "Unfortunately, I failed to check the validity of my railcard for the journey, which had expired. When...."

On a general note, i often wonder why people resort to such complex language when ask to write such letters. Instead of "Upon disembarking the train", why not just say "When i left the train".
Instead of "Moving forward, I have implemented measures to ensure that I diligently verify the validity of my railcard"; why not just say "I now make sure that i check the validity of my railcard..."

Otherwise, looks OK to me.

 

[Dumbblonde]

its difficult to believe that you can buy a one-year card and then forget, thinking it was a three-year one. You will know what you paid for it and that would remind you. I think it better to say "Unfortunately, I failed to check the validity of my railcard for the journey, which had expired. When...."

On a general note, i often wonder why people resort to such complex language when ask to write such letters. Instead of "Upon disembarking the train", why not just say "When i left the train".
Instead of "Moving forward, I have implemented measures to ensure that I diligently verify the validity of my railcard"; why not just say "I now make sure that i check the validity of my railcard..."

Otherwise, looks OK to me.

Hey,

Thank you for taking the time to look through.

Unfortunately with the railcard, there are a lot of people who do not get any reminders that their railcard is expiring. Which happened to me. Following some personal issues, it never occurred to me to check before travelling! Which was incredibly stupid I am well aware.

A lot of times when writing formal letters in my work my language has to be as such. I have taken the feedback, and made it sound less …. robotic to say the least.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi guys,

It’s been some time, but finally I have received the letter.

I have drafted a letter, it would be great to have some feedback

Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your letter dated xxxxx reference xxxxxxxx, and for providing me with the opportunity to address the matter.

On xxxxxxx, I boarded the Thameslink train to xxxxxx from xxxxxxx. Unfortunately, I failed to verify the validity of my railcard for the journey, mistakenly believing it was valid for three years instead of one. When approached by your Revenue Protection Inspector, I initially asserted that I possessed a valid railcard, although my mobile app was experiencing technical difficulties at the time. Upon disembarking the train, I discovered that my railcard had expired. To rectify this oversight, I promptly purchased a valid railcard for the remainder of the journey.

I fully acknowledge that my actions constituted a serious lapse in judgment, resulting in travel fraud. I am deeply remorseful for any inconvenience caused and recognize the financial implications this may have had on ThamesLink. As a NHS midwife, I am acutely aware of the importance of adequate funding within the public sector and understand the impact such negligence can have on service providers and their stakeholders.

Moving forward, I have implemented measures to ensure that I diligently verify the validity of my railcard before each journey. I understand that it is my responsibility to adhere to the terms and conditions of travel, and I am committed to upholding this responsibility rigorously.

In light of the foregoing, I extend my sincerest apologies and offer to settle the matter by reimbursing the appropriate fare and covering any administrative costs incurred as a result of my oversight. I trust that this gesture demonstrates my genuine intent to make amends and resolve the issue amicably.

Thank you for your understanding, and I eagerly await your response.

Kind regards,

Xxxxx

I suspect not a good idea to admitting (or even implying that you admit) any kind of fraud (just say 'resulting in not having a valid ticket' or some such) - and come to think of it it wasn't really a lapse in judgment (which indicates to me something wrong that you chose to do as opposed to a mistake that you made - ie not checking your Railcard was in date, compared with any decision you made to deliberately evade a fare - so you might want to re-phrase that too.

And as mentioned previous you prob need to end with more along lines : "I would be grateful if you could consider allowing me to settle the matter without the need for court action." then you can offer to re-imburse the fare and any admin costs etc

Good luck with this

a serious lapse in judgment, resulting in travel fraud

 

[ikcdab]

Hey,

Thank you for taking the time to look through.

Unfortunately with the railcard, there are a lot of people who do not get any reminders that their railcard is expiring. Which happened to me. Following some personal issues, it never occurred to me to check before travelling! Which was incredibly stupid I am well aware.

A lot of times when writing formal letters in my work my language has to be as such. I have taken the feedback, and made it sound less …. robotic to say the least.

Hi there, it wasn't that you just didn't realise the card had expired, as you say lots of people do that. It is more that you said that you thought you had a three-year card when actually it was a one-year card. I just said that i found it difficult to believe you could forget that you had only bought a one-year card and think you had a three-year one.

and as for the "formal" language, it isn't formal, its just overblown. The letter you received from the railway company is a formal letter, yet is still written in plan, everyday English.

 

[Dumbblonde]

Hi there, it wasn't that you just didn't realise the card had expired, as you say lots of people do that. It is more that you said that you thought you had a three-year card when actually it was a one-year card. I just said that i found it difficult to believe you could forget that you had only bought a one-year card and think you had a three-year one.

and as for the "formal" language, it isn't formal, its just overblown. The letter you received from the railway company is a formal letter, yet is still written in plan, everyday English.

Hi,

Like I say, thank you for reading. I have made some changes , I have made it less ‘overblown’. Have a lovely evening.

 

[markrk91]

Hi,

Like I say, thank you for reading. I have made some changes , I have made it less ‘overblown’. Have a lovely evening.

Hi there, how was this resolved in the end?

 

[antharro]

Hi there, how was this resolved in the end?

Please start a new thread if you're needing the assistance of the forum. No two issues are exactly the same and the advice given here may not apply to you. Also bumping a thread to the top of the forum may be unhelpful for others who are watching it for updates.