Railcard minimum fares

[asylumxl]

Hi there,

I was just wondering what would happen in a hypothetical situation.

Let's say someone had a YP Railcard and purchased a CDR ticket in advance online, and was not charged the minimum fare. The ticket for travel is valid after XX:XX time and the YP minimum fare restriction ends 10:00.

If you traveled before 10:00 on said ticket, would you incur any kind of penalty? Since you've already been sold the ticket with a full discount, can they prevent you from traveling, despite the the travel restrictions saying it is valid?

Cheers.

 

[DavidSmith]

I would say yes. Because the YP discount is subject to the minimum fare before 10. Therefore it is the discount that is invalid and that invalidates the ticket.

In the same way as having a YP discount but no rail-card invalidates the ticket even if you are traveling in the correct off peak times

 

[mumrar]

I'd expect you to have to upgrade your ticket through excess, as you have the valid railcard, but you're not valid for travel at that time with the discount.

I'd expect it to be like using an Off-Peak day before 09:30 where that restriction applies, and you'd have to upgrade to an anytime day. I know the restrictions vary, this was just an example.

 

[Dewedin]

If caught on the train though I'd imagine you'd be charged a penalty fare/full undiscounted single or return as appropriate?

 

[yorkie]

If caught on the train though I'd imagine you'd be charged a penalty fare/full undiscounted single or return as appropriate?

Why do you think that?

The rules say that if you are invalid due to a time restriction you are excessed. Like Mumrar, I don't see how this scenario is any different?

can they prevent you from traveling, despite the the travel restrictions saying it is valid?

To answer the specific question of whether travel can be refused, if you were not prepared to pay the excess then of course they could refuse travel!

 

[asylumxl]

To answer the specific question of whether travel can be refused, if you were not prepared to pay the excess then of course they could refuse travel!

So had it been sold under the pretense you wished to use it before 10 am and they have issued you a ticket without the minimum fare, you are liable?

 

[barrykas]

So had it been sold under the pretense you wished to use it before 10 am and they have issued you a ticket without the minimum fare, you are liable?

Your liability is to pay the "appropriate" fare for the journey you are making. In the case of Railcard minimum fares, this is stated in the Terms and Conditions that you agree to when you apply for the Railcard.

On APTIS and SPORTIS, the minimum fare had to be applied manually, but AFAIK all of the modern Ticket Issuing Systems apply it automatically where appropriate. (Namely where the operator enters a date and time where the minimum fare applies).

Should they fail to do so, and it's picked up during a ticket check, the most you should have to pay is the difference between the fare paid and the minimum fare.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[reb0118]

Assuming all other conditions of the ticket are met you should be excessed to the cheaper of the undiscounted CDR or the relevant minimum fare.

eg As the minimum fare is £12 (?) and if the undiscounted fare was £9:50 you should be excessed to that, however, if the undisounted fare was £15:00 you should be excessed to the minimum fare ie £12

Simples

 

[RJ]

On APTIS and SPORTIS, the minimum fare had to be applied manually, but AFAIK all of the modern Ticket Issuing Systems apply it automatically where appropriate. (Namely where the operator enters a date and time where the minimum fare applies).

Should they fail to do so, and it's picked up during a ticket check, the most you should have to pay is the difference between the fare paid and the minimum fare.

Cheers,

Barry

They should but not all of them do, I know of at least one which prompts the operator at all times M-F but never applies it automatically. I don't like relying on it anyway as sometimes its judgement lacks accuracy. As you say, an upgrade to the correct price is the correct course of action for time restricted tickets, well most of them anyway.

 

[Paul Kelly]

On Sunday 22nd August last year at Paddington I bought an out-boundary off-peak travelcard from Reading for use the next day, with a Network Railcard discount. I expected it to cost the minimum fare of £13, but I was only charged £12.85. The woman in the booking office seemed quite grumpy so I didn't argue with her that she should have been charging me 15p more, and I didn't get it checked at any stage the next day so all turned out well, but I wondered if the minimum fare hadn't been applied because the day I was buying it (Sunday) was a day when it didn't apply? With NFM08 this fare has gone up to £13.55, i.e. above the Network Railcard minimum fare, so it won't be an issue any more

 

[RJ]

On Sunday 22nd August last year at Paddington I bought an out-boundary off-peak travelcard from Reading for use the next day, with a Network Railcard discount. I expected it to cost the minimum fare of £13, but I was only charged £12.85. The woman in the booking office seemed quite grumpy so I didn't argue with her that she should have been charging me 15p more, and I didn't get it checked at any stage the next day so all turned out well, but I wondered if the minimum fare hadn't been applied because the day I was buying it (Sunday) was a day when it didn't apply? With NFM08 this fare has gone up to £13.55, i.e. above the Network Railcard minimum fare, so it won't be an issue any more

If you suspect the fare is wrong then you should speak up as there's a chance the clerk has made a mistake.

 

[penaltyfines]

What about the reverse, where for example you buy a railcard-discounted ticket with the minimum fare applied - would you be eligible for any sort of refund in the following cases:

(a) The 09:59 was cancelled, and you travel on the 10:01?

(b) You were booked on the 09:59 and decided to travel on the 10:01 instead?

(c) You are on a multi-day ticket and decide to travel out at the weekend when the minimum fare doesn't apply?

I'm not so sure C would be a regular occurrence, FGW for example have returns which have an outward portion valid for 5 (I think) days, but they are long-distance which are probably over the minimum fare anyway.

 

[RJ]

What about the reverse, where for example you buy a railcard-discounted ticket with the minimum fare applied - would you be eligible for any sort of refund in the following cases:

(a) The 09:59 was cancelled, and you travel on the 10:01?

(b) You were booked on the 09:59 and decided to travel on the 10:01 instead?

(c) You are on a multi-day ticket and decide to travel out at the weekend when the minimum fare doesn't apply?

I'm not so sure C would be a regular occurrence, FGW for example have returns which have an outward portion valid for 5 (I think) days, but they are long-distance which are probably over the minimum fare anyway.

Refunds are given in accordance with the CoC and Passenger Charters.
Depending on the circumstances, some discretionary refund in the form of a non-issue/re-issue may be given at the other end.

 

[penaltyfines]

I don't understand your answer at all... maybe I need to clarify:

If you buy a ticket that is say £15 undiscounted, for travel on the 9:59 service, with a railcard and have it discounted down to £12 (minimum fare), then:

(a) the 9:59 is cancelled, and you get the next train at 10:30 (not delayed, cancelled and getting a different service)

(b) you decide in fact to travel on a later train at 10:30

In either case can you get a refund of the £2 extra that was paid, as the minimum fare wouldn't have applied on those trains?

Edit: Aah you've edited your comment? lol

 

[RJ]

Edit: Aah you've edited your comment? lol

Yes sorry about that, I initially misread your query. In either case you'd probably have to go through customer services, because in the ticket office there are strict rules on touching tickets that have already been used.

 

[cuccir]

I don't understand your answer at all... maybe I need to clarify:

If you buy a ticket that is say £15 undiscounted, for travel on the 9:59 service, with a railcard and have it discounted down to £12 (minimum fare), then:

(a) the 9:59 is cancelled, and you get the next train at 10:30 (not delayed, cancelled and getting a different service)

(b) you decide in fact to travel on a later train at 10:30

In either case can you get a refund of the £2 extra that was paid, as the minimum fare wouldn't have applied on those trains?

Edit: Aah you've edited your comment? lol

I'd doubt that there'd be anything on offer for b; I suspect that if you went with a. you might be able to kick up a fuss and get a refund, but there's probably not any hard rules here.

 

[penaltyfines]

Is there any way of changing them before travel, i.e. refunding/exchanging an unused ticket for the right one?

 

[Flamingo]

Most ticket changes or refunds incur a £10 admin charge if they are down to the customers "change of mind". Just to throw that into the mix.

 

[asylumxl]

I imagine if you had paid for it shortly before from the same ticket office, they'd not mind. Or atleast that's my experience with other price issues other than minimim fare.

 

[Flamingo]

If it's the same "issuer", it's just a question of doing a "non-issue", which is straightforward.

 

[clagmonster]

What about the reverse, where for example you buy a railcard-discounted ticket with the minimum fare applied - would you be eligible for any sort of refund in the following cases:

(a) The 09:59 was cancelled, and you travel on the 10:01?

(b) You were booked on the 09:59 and decided to travel on the 10:01 instead?

(c) You are on a multi-day ticket and decide to travel out at the weekend when the minimum fare doesn't apply?

I'm not so sure C would be a regular occurrence, FGW for example have returns which have an outward portion valid for 5 (I think) days, but they are long-distance which are probably over the minimum fare anyway.

a) If the train is cancelled, then you can have your ticket refunded in full if you decide not to travel. See:
"if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not
be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused
ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will,
if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in
Condition 27."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
So I don't see why you couldn't have your ticket refunded then purchase a new discounted ticket. Depending on the TOC and length of delay, you may well be better off sticking with the original ticket and making a compensation claim.

b) You could have your ticket refunded and then purchase a new ticket instead, subject to a £10 admin fee, but in the case of the railcard minimum fare there would never be any advantage in doing this. If you had an anytime ticket and chose to travel on an off-peak service, then in some cases there will be an advantage in doing this.

c) I think this is essentially the same as case b). I assume you are talking about tickets like standard opens which have an outward validity period of five days.

 

[barrykas]

If it's the same "issuer", it's just a question of doing a "non-issue", which is straightforward.

Incidentally, stations equipped with FasTIS SHOULD be able to non-issue any ticket bought from any window at that station on the same day, using the search functionality. Just tap in the ticket and window numbers and you're away.

Cheers,

Barry